Here's the ranger so far, at 1st level. It still needs one feat and a favored enemy. Better clarification on which two-handed weapon would be nice. I started with 175 gold, the average that a level 1 ranger would have. I chose half-orc because it grants a racial bonus to strength, I like half-orcs, and the darkvision is a welcome addition to a scout. The ferocity is like having some extra hit points too.
As I get more information and time, I will post each level as I can. Hopefully Ashiel will remain kind enough to provide more information.
I don't think theory when we can use practicality. So let's be practical.
ASHIEL CR 1/2
Male Half-Orc Ranger 1
NN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +6
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16. . (+6 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 12 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +5 (1d4+4/20/x2) and
. . Spear +5 (1d8+6/20/x3)
Ranged Sling +3 (1d4+4/20/x2)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 0, 5 melee touch, 3 ranged touch):
--------------------
STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 17
Feats
Skills Acrobatics -3, Climb -1, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Intimidate +0, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Perception +6, Ride -3, Stealth +1, Survival +6, Swim -1
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Orc Ferocity (1/day), Track +1, Wild Empathy -1 (Ex)
Combat Gear Bullets, Sling (20), Chainmail, Shield, Heavy Wooden, Sling, Spear;
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Track +1 +1 to survival checks to track.
Wild Empathy -1 (Ex) Improve the atttitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
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Here's the ranger so far, at 1st level. It still needs one feat and a favored enemy. Better clarification on which two-handed weapon would be nice. I started with 175 gold, the average that a level 1 ranger would have. I chose half-orc because it grants a racial bonus to strength, I like half-orcs, and the darkvision is a welcome addition to a scout. The ferocity is like having some extra hit points too.
As I get more information and time, I will post each level as I can. Hopefully Ashiel will remain kind enough to provide more information.
I don't think theory when we can use practicality. So let's be practical.
** spoiler omitted **...
Bless you Bob. I remember when you did this for someone else making a wizard that could do anything at all times in another thread...
For comparison's sake a fighter of the same "brand" perhaps? Obviously with some ability score adjustments (less wisdom, more Str) but as a parallel build.
Your attacks puzzle me Bob...
How do you get a Heavy Shield Bash AND Spear (with obviously two handed strength) at level one with your full to hit?
Nice ranger (some errors on attacks?). You can also split orc ferocity for the tattoo +1 on ST.
I don't use point based system for attribute. I did it for AD&D, and I think it's not funny. Also having all characters with relevant attribute maximized is not good for game. Besides that, I think that as there'r no more d4 hit points classes we should go over the 2 skill points classe. Fighter, wizard, cleric, paladin, etc, should have 4 skill points / level, but GM should encourage the use of skills "not for combat". This is not a videogame.
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I don't think Bob was formatting it as a full attack, just what the character has for individual attacks. So his spear entry is for two-handing, his shield bash is for sword and board. Obviously his spear damage would drop to 4 when sword and boarding, and his attack bonus would drop to +3 when TWF. (Unless shield rules change that, I'm not up on them.)
Well then its not AND but OR.
if he changes it the statblock is allright
Your attacks puzzle me Bob...
How do you get a Heavy Shield Bash AND Spear (with obviously two handed strength) at level one with your full to hit?
This isn't my build. I may not have made that clear. I was fighting a sleeping pill when I posted that. This is Ashiel's ranger. I'm taking all the data she gives and I will be using it to see if it makes a playable ranger.
The spear was the only two-handed weapon that I could afford along with chain mail and a shield that granted a +2 bonus to AC. Ashiel hasn't come back yet (probably sleeping or playing Skyrim) to explain why she made those suggestions.
The reason I chose half-orc was because she had said that she would place a +2 in Strength. Since we are only looking at core options, I only had three choices. I didn't know what she would suggest so I picked the one with darkvision because it would be useful for a scout.
Here's the ranger so far, at 1st level. It still needs one feat and a favored enemy. Better clarification on which two-handed weapon would be nice. I started with 175 gold, the average that a level 1 ranger would have. I chose half-orc because it grants a racial bonus to strength, I like half-orcs, and the darkvision is a welcome addition to a scout. The ferocity is like having some extra hit points too.
As I get more information and time, I will post each level as I can. Hopefully Ashiel will remain kind enough to provide more information.
I don't think theory when we can use practicality. So let's be practical.
** spoiler omitted **...
Bless you Bob. I remember when you did this for someone else making a wizard that could do anything at all times in another thread...
For comparison's sake a fighter of the same "brand" perhaps? Obviously with some ability score adjustments (less wisdom, more Str) but as a parallel build.
Maybe I'll get around to it. Right now though, I am more concerned with making sure we are pinning down what we are being told. With arguments being all over the place about what a class can accomplish, no one can really make any valued statements. We need to see the abilities in context. Can a ranger really do everything that is being proposed? I think it might be able to do quite a bit. Ashiel is actually pretty good at character building.
Your attacks puzzle me Bob...
How do you get a Heavy Shield Bash AND Spear (with obviously two handed strength) at level one with your full to hit?
That's a quirk of the Hero Lab output I have never noticed before. I can't go back and edit the post anymore. Just mentally change that "AND" to "OR" and everything should be alright. I will try to remember that in the future.
Ashiel, I'm trying to follow your ranger build so I can see everything that's happening. You mentioned that you would build him like Aragorn and take a 2-handed weapon. Earlier you said that you would give your ranger a shield for a +2 bonus to AC. Since that's not a buckler, how are you using both?
Am I the only player/GM that uses different equipment based on what is needed at the time? I can scarcely fathom the idea...
My typical loadout at 1st level generally looks something like this, for almost any warrior-character I'm playing.
My hypothetical warrior has a respectable 18 AC, 20 with shield, can use a reach weapon, has a weapon that cannot be disarmed, has a 1 handed weapon that can be thrown or 2-handed if needed in close quarters (1d6+6 is still decent damage), a ranged weapon that is free and benefits from strength (even if I don't buy bullets, rocks turn the damage from 1d4 into 1d3-1, which makes 1d3+3 with an 18 Str). A polearm to take care of my primary business with.
Which means at more or less any time, I can go from rocking socks to tanking multiple foes as needed. Got multiple archers or somesuch firing at you while you're trying to cross a platform? Draw your shield as part of your move action and total defense for AC 24. Fighting in close quarters? Grab your club and shield and enjoy the fact you still have a 5-10 damage per swing and a +4 to hit. Got a little more room to maneuver? Whip out your glaive, chug an enlarge person potion and reign terror with your 2d8+7 damage in a 20 ft. radius.
With a Ranger, I can even skimp on some of the Adventuring gear, since I can take 10 and feed myself; reducing the need for trail rations and certain provisions (I usually purchase cheese, bread, and other foods that are slow to spoil when buying provisions, instead of your basic nuts & berry & jerky trail rations).
I couldn't imagine being the only person to actually think about things with at least a nod towards tactics and problem solving...
Ashiel, saying "I can acquire magic items to overcome my lack of Intelligence and skill points" is an argument any class can use, including the fighter. It's the same as the fighter buying a +2 Int headband to craft with, and so invalid on the same level.
==Aelryinth
No, it's not an argument that the Fighter can use, because no amount of magic items with allow the Fighter to craft a decent amount of magic items. The Fighter is innately crippled. The moment that the Ranger hits level 7, even with a -2 Intelligence, he can take 10 and craft anything he wants that is DC 19 or less, with no help at all. That's most of those awesome consumables I mentioned earlier.
He can then craft himself his own enhancing items. He gets him some masterwork tools, adds some +competence bonus onto something, and so forth. So he can stack the deck in his favor.
No amount of item creation, magic item stacking, or bonuses, will allow the Fighter to actually use Item Creation feats for all they are worth; so bonuses don't matter. If a Fighter has a +1000 Craft check, he still can't make 90% of Wondrous Items, and thus is pretty failtastic.
So what are the basic rules we are working under it's 15 point buy right and core only? Is the ranger a 2 hander?
So what are the basic rules we are working under it's 15 point buy right and core only? Is the ranger a 2 hander?
Since it's core-only, like the fighter would have to be, then there are only two options.
The spear and shield doesn't really tell me what combat style will be selected I was wondering if it would be more of a switch hitter? Ashiel could go either way though.
Having a sling can actually be useful if you run into human burning skeltons at low level as it is ranged bludgeoning damage. Yes you could also use blunt arrows from the apg. Although samurai don't get that much starting gold.
My partial load out for a samurai would probably katana kiko armor and a sling.
Ashiel, I'm trying to follow your ranger build so I can see everything that's happening. You mentioned that you would build him like Aragorn and take a 2-handed weapon. Earlier you said that you would give your ranger a shield for a +2 bonus to AC. Since that's not a buckler, how are you using both?Am I the only player/GM that uses different equipment based on what is needed at the time? I can scarcely fathom the idea...
I was just asking for clarification. You didn't specify that you would be switching back and forth between different tactics. You only mentioned that you would have chain mail, a two-handed weapon, a sling (which I may have forgot to add but I will) and a shield that grants a +2 bonus at level 1.
My typical loadout at 1st level generally looks something like this, for almost any warrior-character I'm playing.
Chainmail armor (150 gp, +6 armor, +2 max dex)
Heavy Wooden shield (7 gp, +2 shield bonus)
A polearm (longspears are 5 gp, glaives are 8 gp, guisarme or ranseur is 9 gp)
A sling (0 gp)
A spiked gauntlet (5 gp)
A club (0 gp)
10 gp in adventuring gear
I will make adjustments accordingly. Thank you for the specifics. I end up with only 8 in adventuring gear but I don't think that quibbling over 2 gold is worth an argument, and you address this a bit later.
My hypothetical warrior has a respectable 18 AC, 20 with shield, can use a reach weapon, has a weapon that cannot be disarmed, has a 1 handed weapon that can be thrown or 2-handed if needed in close quarters (1d6+6 is still decent damage), a ranged weapon that is free and benefits from strength (even if I don't buy bullets, rocks turn the damage from 1d4 into 1d3-1, which makes 1d3+3 with an 18 Str). A polearm to take care of my primary business with.
Which means at more or less any time, I can go from rocking socks to tanking multiple foes as needed. Got multiple archers or somesuch firing at you while you're trying to cross a platform? Draw your shield as part of your move action and total defense for AC 24. Fighting in close quarters? Grab your club and shield and enjoy the fact you still have a 5-10 damage per swing and a +4 to hit. Got a little more room to maneuver? Whip out your glaive, chug an enlarge person potion and reign terror with your 2d8+7 damage in a 20 ft. radius.
You don't get that enlarge person potion. That's out of your price range. You may or may not have acquired one in an adventure, but you can't have another party member make one because this is considered a weakness of the fighter. It cannot be used as a strength for another class. Otherwise, everything else looks great.
With a Ranger, I can even skimp on some of the Adventuring gear, since I can take 10 and feed myself; reducing the need for trail rations and certain provisions (I usually purchase cheese, bread, and other foods that are slow to spoil when buying provisions, instead of your basic nuts & berry & jerky trail rations).
You can actually feed the entire party. It's only a DC 10 +2 for each additional party member. A party of 4 is DC 16. You start with a +6, which can feed everyone.
I couldn't imagine being the only person to actually think about things with at least a nod towards tactics and problem solving...
You're not. I just was trying to follow you and I was noticing that the discussions were all over the place with level discussion and I wanted to pin things down so we are all on the same page.
Here is the updated ranger:
ASHIEL CR 1/2
Male Half-Orc Ranger 1
NN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +6
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16. . (+6 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 12 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +5 (1d4+4/20/x2) OR
. . Club +5 (1d6+4/20/x2) OR
. . Gauntlet, Spiked +5 (1d4+4/20/x2) OR
. . Longspear +5 (1d8+6/20/x3)
Ranged Sling +3 (1d4+4/20/x2)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 0, 5 melee touch, 3 ranged touch):
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 17
Feats
Skills Acrobatics -3, Climb -1, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Intimidate +0, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Perception +6, Ride -3, Stealth +1, Survival +6, Swim -1
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Orc Ferocity (1/day), Track +1, Wild Empathy -1 (Ex)
Combat Gear Bullets, Sling (20), Chainmail, Club, Gauntlet, Spiked, Longspear, Shield, Heavy Wooden, Sling;
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Track +1 +1 to survival checks to track.
Wild Empathy -1 (Ex) Improve the atttitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Unless a party member has less than 10 wisdom each member is capable of feeding themselves.
Unless a party member has less than 10 wisdom each member is capable of feeding themselves.
Now they can also take care of any mounts or animal companions as well. Aid Another can help feed everyone.
My point was just that Ashiel's ranger could do more than she claimed with Survival. She also has the ability to determine weather, avoid getting lost, avoid hazards, etc, all without picking up the dice.
true.
As for the Ranger build, I would propose something like this.
Ranger ---- CR 1/2 (200 XP)
Medium humanoid (orc) ranger 1
Init +2; Senses Perception +6
========================================================================
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +2 dex)
Hp 11 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +2
Defensive Abilities - Ferocity
========================================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee glaive +5 (1d10+6/x3) or 2H club +5 (1d6+6) or 1H club (1d6+4) or spiked gauntlet +5 (1d4+4)
Ranged sling +3 (1d3+3)
Ranger Spells (CL 0)
- none yet
========================================================================
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +1, CMB +5, CMD 17
Feats - Power Attack
Skills - Climb +3, Heal +6, Perception +6, Survival +6, Swim +3
Gear - chainmail, heavy wooden shield, glaive, spiked gauntlet, club, sling, 10 gp worth of adventuring gear (recommended waterskin, sacks, crushed chalk, empty flasks, etc).
At 1st level, we're preparing for general adventuring. I opted for Climb and Swim at +3 since those could be issues during the game, but you might instead want to opt for Stealth +1 instead. At 2nd level, I'd drop 2 ranks into Stealth and grab a masterwork tool (Stealth), like some padded boots or light absorbing cloak or something for another +2, bringing our mods a little closer to respectable in that area. By 3rd level, I'd hope to have upgraded to a masterwork breastplate or something, for the lower check penalty and higher maximum Dexterity (because we will definitely have room for growth in that department, as we will be hitting +9 by 20th).
In the meantime, he has a solid AC of 18 while doing general fighting. If need be, he can draw his shield as part of a move action due to having a +1 or higher BAB, which allows him to move about while swapping his gear as needed. The shield brings his AC to 20. If he fights defensively, he has AC 22 with a +1 to hit with his weapons. If he total defenses, such as if he is just trying to act as cover for his allies or block movement to them, he hits AC 24. I'm okay with that.
Early on, I'd try to convince the party to all chip in to get some happy sticks, so I can try to heal the party between encounters, or pickup somebody who has been knocked into negatives. I got Heal so that I can administer first aid when needed, help treat poisons and diseases (I can take 10 and beat most common ones), and double our rate of natural healing for HP and ability damage (so we recover HD * 2 HP / 2 ability score damage per day, or HD * 4 HP / 4 ability score damage if resting proper).
I went with half-orc for this example because I agree Darkvision is nice, though I usually prefer chucking rocks with light spells cast on them down long hallways or into the unknown, since that way everyone can see what is up ahead, not just me. The problem with scouting with darkvision is that if there's something there you don't notice due to a good Stealth check and their having cover or concealment that isn't light-based, then you get mauled and your party is just as blind as they were before, but now they're down a martial.
Normally, I'd probably go with Human for the bonus feat and skill points, or Half-Elf for the low-light vision. If you go half-elf, it's not a bad idea to multi-class Fighter until 5th level, so you can have your cake and eat it too. Also, Skill Focus (Stealth) at 1st level means that you can be a Stealth-monkey out of the box, even in armor, and it only gets better later. You can afford to pull back on Strength to 16 if you go Dwarf (dwarfs are excellent for their resistances, and wearing medium armor isn't an issue for you, in which case you might consider investing skill points into Acrobatics pretty heavily) or Elf (elves get a bump to Dex and Int, which adjusts the way you play a little bit, but their low-light vision is pretty superior for general scouting, as you can Stealth in the dim area which cannot be penetrated by darkvision or seen by creatures without low-light vision). If you go with gnome, you get auto-qualification for item creation feats, a +1 bonus to hit and AC, but you're going to lose some strength; so you should definitely consider being a mounted archer/lancer if this is your route. Halflings are also excellent mounted archers, and even with a 14 Strength, and a 16 Dex, the +1 to hit and AC is huge, your Stealth with be huge due to the +4 size modifier, and so forth. I'm also fond of Goblin rangers, who are arguably the best mounted archers, sneaks, and riders, who also have darkvision and are small size with a 30 ft. speed.
So really, you have some nice options, depending on whatever path you want to take. The above is merely one iteration, but it's enough to discuss some basic strategies.
Unless a party member has less than 10 wisdom each member is capable of feeding themselves.Now they can also take care of any mounts or animal companions as well. Aid Another can help feed everyone.
My point was just that Ashiel's ranger could do more than she claimed with Survival. She also has the ability to determine weather, avoid getting lost, avoid hazards, etc, all without picking up the dice.
It is indeed a pretty useful skill. :)
It's also not bad to have an extra +2 or so in Survival for the odd case where the DC is ticked up a bit by the GM for game being scarce or the environment inhospitable.
Kind of like the Heal skill. Most people just think of it as being for stopping people from bleeding out. However, you can save your party a lot of trouble in a lot of ways. An anti-toxin or anti-disease and a successful Heal check is a +8 to overcome poison or disease respectively. The double healing rate is surprisingly nice when combined with other healing methods for getting your party back on its feet, or for dealing with ability damage in a timely fashion at low levels. ^-^
PS: Going out of town for the weekend, so my posting may be sporadic or non-existent, depending on how the laptop works out. So if I don't respond soon, it's not 'cause I'm ignoring you. ^-^
I always think that comparisons at level 1 are worth nothing.
Nobody at level 1 has any notable specials to speak of.
Good levels for comparison are levels in which you either get a new attack and/or a new spell level.
I like comparing at 7 and 11. 11 is a bit high level already though and many builds that get posted for this are nearly unplayable at the low levels which most players will have to survive.
I always think that comparisons at level 1 are worth nothing.
Nobody at level 1 has any notable specials to speak of.
Good levels for comparison are levels in which you either get a new attack and/or a new spell level.I like comparing at 7 and 11. 11 is a bit high level already though and many builds that get posted for this are nearly unplayable at the low levels which most players will have to survive.
That's part of the reason that I included all that information about different races, what to do in X levels, what your long term goals might look like, how you might adjust your build depending on preferences, and so on and so forth. All of them use the same ability score array (which was what we were talking about), and it can carry you through to high levels as well.
The Fighter can definitely out-damage the ranger, in terms of raw +hit and +damage, which he gains more of at higher levels. In fact, this is about the only reason I like Fighters, as they are probably the best raw damage dealers in the core rulebook.
In fact, I think capitalizing on some of that is ideal if you're a half-elf, or just like multiclassing. Hit 5th level Fighter / Ranger 15 and you get most of what's good about being a Ranger, along with a +3/+3 to hit and damage due to weapon training + dueling gloves, which is pretty awesome. You can even grab weapon specialization if you want, have 3 extra feats, and armor training I, which lets you basically run around in your medium armor rocking socks (and saves you the trouble of having your 2nd level ranger spell that does the same thing permanently bound to your armor, so you save some cash in item creation).
If the Fighter is anything, it's a good dip. :P
105 gp average
str 18+4
dex 13+1
con 14+2
Int 10
wis 12+1
cha 10
attacks
katana 2 hand +5 d8+6 18-20x2
katana 2 hand power attack +4 d8+7 18-20x2
katana one hand +5 d8+4
katana one hand power attack +4 d8+6
ranged sling stone +2 d3+3
skills
ride+5
knowledge religion +4
linguistics +5
handle animal+4
diplomacy+4
sense motive +5
traits
hp 12
Ac 16 flat footed 15 touch 11
saves
fort+4
ref+1
will+1
feats
power attack
mounted combat
languages
common, Tien, Skald
gear
katana, kikko pattern armor, sling , riding saddle, saddlebags, backpack, 9gp other gear
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While I would love give feedback about the stealth effectiveness of chucking lighted rocks down hallways to “scout” (seriously, the more I hear about Ashiel’s game…) I’ll just post a first level counter fighter and wait for the 2nd level ranger so we can continue this little thought experiment.
For simplicity sake keep the equipment the same between the two at 1st level. We have the same money. And for the same reason, keep the race the same.
For ability scores, let’s go
Str 17 (19 with +2 orc), 14 Dex, 13 Con, 7 Int (I would personally never do this in my game, as I hate anything below 8, but I am playing on the field we have set out on) 12 Wis, 7 Int
Feats: Power Attack, Toughness
Add skill point for favored class for a total of 3 skill points.
1st level fighter has got 3 skill points to 5 from the other side with a 19 strength primed for my ability boost. I’ve got 13 hit points to the rangers 11, the ranger has me on the will save by 1.
I’ll play the point in survival no food game too (although if I were running, letting someone take 10 to hunt could fall under dangerous depending on where you are hunting...) since it is a class skill for fighters. Throw the other 2 skill points where you want, I'm only here to show you are able.
I would say the ranger is slightly ahead at this level, in part because I can’t afford heavy armor yet. I would also say I’m primed to be way ahead on durability and damage a few levels from now. I’m open to adjustments suggestions as I await the 2nd level post.
Now, now, you're again resorting to a disproven argument.
If the Ranger wants to waste time making consumables, that's fine.
In the interim,the fighter is going to be making all the permanent gear he can use and needs...and can swap for the consumables. So, he'll have better permanent gear then the ranger, AND he'll be better at making it, and faster. We've already pointed out that the fighter with Crafting can make tons of Wondrous Items and Armor that he NEEDS...and that everyone else does, too. Hell, he can make FEATHER TOKENS...they just have to be plumes to stick in a helm.
And the Ranger will be consistently lagging behind in high end magic item production. Your 'solution' of crafting Competency items to make up for the shortfall is just more "Buy magic because I suck at this" explanations, used for everything from low movement rates to barkskin potions, and really is trying to avoid the issue.
So, what you are doing is ceding long-term viablity for short-term versatility, while the fighter is just getting better and better with time.
On to the next argument.
==Aelryinth
The shield can only be drawn as a move action donning the shield requires a further move action or donning as part of a move if you have a BAB of +1 or higher otherwise donning a quickdraw shield would take longer than a standard shield.
While the gear selected is very nice the amount of effort to switch between the various possible combinations is a little bit of a draw back. The sling is useful to start off with however after one attack you need to drop whatever else you were holding to reload it. If you have your shield out and wish to use your spear if it is not in hand you need to spend your move action to remove it or remove it as part of a move action and then use your standard to draw the spear. Spiked gauntlets don't have a down side always a good pick. Switching to shield and club after using the spear will take a move to draw the shield a move to don the shield or as part of a move action you may don it and then on your next turn you can draw the club as part of your move you will have use of your spiked gauntlet until you can draw the club though.
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The shield can only be drawn as a move action donning the shield requires a further move action or donning as part of a move if you have a BAB of +1 or higher otherwise donning a quickdraw shield would take longer than a standard shield.
While the gear selected is very nice the amount of effort to switch between the various possible combinations is a little bit of a draw back. The sling is useful to start off with however after one attack you need to drop whatever else you were holding to reload it. If you have your shield out and wish to use your spear if it is not in hand you need to spend your move action to remove it or remove it as part of a move action and then use your standard to draw the spear. Spiked gauntlets don't have a down side always a good pick. Switching to shield and club after using the spear will take a move to draw the shield a move to don the shield or as part of a move action you may don it and then on your next turn you can draw the club as part of your move you will have use of your spiked gauntlet until you can draw the club though.
There is also the issue of having that hand free, meaning you are dropping items all over the place since while you can draw as part of a move action doesn't mean you can put away as part of that same move action.
But again, this is a game where you sneakily throw lighted rocks down halls.
Also keep in mind I give people perception checks to here you casting the light spell which has a verbal component.
You do get perception checks to notice persons casting spells.
And if you are affecting them with your spell it counts as attacking and you cannot do that while stealthing.
Also remember that if you cast light on a stone and someone is there watching where you are you will be visibile for that moment because most likely there is nothing but concealment to hide you and that is nonexistent in the round before you throw the stone and you can have only one light spell active at any time.
So its always cast light -> visibile -> next round -> throw stone -> hide -> look for thingies -> cast light -> visibile....
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Also keep in mind I give people perception checks to here you casting the light spell which has a verbal component.
Egads, what madness is this! I supposed when the party teleports away to take a day of rest and comes back they dungeon isn't identical to how the left it and the enemy has regrouped in your game as well...
Also keep in mind I give people perception checks to here you casting the light spell which has a verbal component.Egads, what madness is this! I supposed when the party teleports away to take a day of rest and comes back they dungeon isn't identical to how the left it and the enemy has regrouped in your game as well...
Indeed, and sometimes the enemy isn't there at all.
But all this as amusing as it is is irrelevant to the discussion.
As for the Ranger build, I would propose something like this.
Thank you for providing more information on the build. You've overspent by 1 skill point. I dropped swim. If you would rather have something else dropped, just say so. If you want to change the race, I'm fine with that. Each race does bring its own twist on the class as you mentioned. I usually use humans for my characters because I love the feats and skill points but I also really like half-orcs and dwarves.
The tactics all look fine to me.
So if I don't respond soon, it's not 'cause I'm ignoring you. ^-^
Sure...likely excuse...isn't the general rule that if you don't respond in 24 hours you forfeit? ;)
Alienfreak, what I am doing is seeing how the ranger is built for each level. It's one thing to say that a level X character can do Y, but if the character can't survive the lower levels, then it really isn't a viable build. This is how I build every character I play, regardless of level. If I join a group with a level 15 character, I build if level by level and make sure that it is viable at every level. It's a weird quirk I have. I applaud Ashiel's willingness to do this. I tried this with someone else a while ago with the uber-wizard concept. He would never provide any information on how to play the invincible wizard at all levels of play. While Ashiel has not claimed that the ranger is invincible, I still want to see how she would build it and what makes it a more interesting choice for her. I look forward to see what the plans are for level 2.
Ciretose, your fighter has too many skill points also. If you dump Intelligence, you only have 1 rank plus the favored class.
For both builds, there is little reason to not use power attack so I will have it turned on. Here they are together so we can compare them easily.
ASHIEL CR 1/2
Male Half-Orc Ranger 1
NN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +6
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16. . (+6 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 12 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +4 (1d4+6/20/x2) and
. . Club +4 (1d6+6/20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet, Spiked +4 (1d4+6/20/x2) and
. . Glaive +4 (1d10+9/20/x3)
Ranged Sling +3 (1d4+4/20/x2)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 0, 4 melee touch, 3 ranged touch):
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 17
Feats Power Attack -1/+2
Skills Acrobatics -3, Climb +3, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Heal +6, Intimidate +0, Perception +6, Ride -3, Stealth -3, Survival +6, Swim -1
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Orc Ferocity (1/day), Track +1, Wild Empathy -1 (Ex)
Combat Gear Bullets, Sling (20), Chainmail, Club, Gauntlet, Spiked, Glaive, Shield, Heavy Wooden, Sling;
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Track +1 +1 to survival checks to track.
Wild Empathy -1 (Ex) Improve the atttitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Male Half-Orc Fighter 1
NN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +3
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16. . (+6 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 14 (1d10+4)
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +4 (1d4+6/20/x2) OR
. . Club +4 (1d6+6/20/x2) OR
. . Gauntlet, Spiked +4 (1d4+6/20/x2) OR
. . Glaive +4 (1d10+9/20/x3)
Ranged Sling +3 (1d4+4/20/x2)
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 17
Feats Power Attack -1/+2, Toughness +3
Skills Acrobatics -3, Climb -1, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Intimidate +0, Perception +3, Ride -3, Stealth -3, Survival +6, Swim -1
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Orc Ferocity (1/day)
Combat Gear Bullets, Sling (20), Chainmail, Club, Gauntlet, Spiked, Glaive, Shield, Heavy Wooden, Sling;
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Bullets, Sling - 0/20
Club - 0/1
Orc Ferocity (1/day) - 0/1
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
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actually, i would reccomend a human, darkvision doesn't do a thing to help stealth.
here is why darkvision doesn't help stealth.
even while sneaking, the enemy can still hear the clanking of the Tank's Tin can. a lot farther than when you can see them. this is most likely an automatic giveaway.
even if you do have darkvision, the enemy's darkvision range is probably at least equal or better. and they know which corners to maximize the benefit because your on thier turf.
adventurers don't really have a pleasant aroma, more like a strong stench, consisting of some combination of Gore, Sewage, Sweat, and other fluids of strong stench. soap is rarely purchased, nor are other hygiene products, and you don't need a special ability to say that you can smell adventurers.
these factors apply whether or not you have darkvision. so the lighted rock is fine.
actually, i would reccomend a human, darkvision doesn't do a thing to help stealth.
here is why darkvision doesn't help stealth.
even while sneaking, the enemy can still hear the clanking of the Tank's Tin can. a lot farther than when you can see them. this is most likely an automatic giveaway.
even if you do have darkvision, the enemy's darkvision range is probably at least equal or better. and they know which corners to maximize the benefit because your on thier turf.
adventurers don't really have a pleasant aroma, more like a strong stench, consisting of some combination of Gore, Sewage, Sweat, and other fluids of strong stench. soap is rarely purchased, nor are other hygiene products, and you don't need a special ability to say that you can smell adventurers.
these factors apply whether or not you have darkvision. so the lighted rock is fine.
A Fullplate has 6 ACP.
By level 7 he will have a MW one and Armour Training 2. That means he is left with 3 ACP.Assuming 14 starting Dex and taking a trait that gives you stealth as a Class Skill (with a +1 bonus) you end up with a +10 Bonus on Stealth checks.
If you want to go full stealth there is also a trait for 1 less ACP
In 3.5 you were the walking Tin Can man but in Paizo a stealthy Fullplate Fighter is doable. Probably not against the Perception master but against most people it will work. After 40ft from him you are as good as anyone (literarily)
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Ciretose, your fighter has too many skill points also. If you dump Intelligence, you only have 1 rank plus the favored class.
Sorry I thought there was some cheese upthread about minimum skills or something. Glad that doesn't exist as it would be another Min Max gift. In that case since we aren't the min/max cheese someone mentioned up thread I would like to adjust my ability scores as follow.
Strength down to 18 (16 +2 from Orc), Con down to 12, intelligence up to 10. I think you have my wisdom as 14 rather than 12. This will fix the skill issues.
Full set is 18, 14, 12, 10, 12, 7
I hate 15 point buy (generally roll or go with 20) but again, the field we are playing on...
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actually, i would reccomend a human, darkvision doesn't do a thing to help stealth.
here is why darkvision doesn't help stealth.
even while sneaking, the enemy can still hear the clanking of the Tank's Tin can. a lot farther than when you can see them. this is most likely an automatic giveaway.
even if you do have darkvision, the enemy's darkvision range is probably at least equal or better. and they know which corners to maximize the benefit because your on thier turf.
adventurers don't really have a pleasant aroma, more like a strong stench, consisting of some combination of Gore, Sewage, Sweat, and other fluids of strong stench. soap is rarely purchased, nor are other hygiene products, and you don't need a special ability to say that you can smell adventurers.
these factors apply whether or not you have darkvision. so the lighted rock is fine.
I would prefer human myself, but I am not going for ultimate build, just example build.
Human is the better race.
Take 7 int then and you still have 3 skillpoints per level.
As for the Ranger build, I would propose something like this.Thank you for providing more information on the build. You've overspent by 1 skill point. I dropped swim. If you would rather have something else dropped, just say so. If you want to change the race, I'm fine with that. Each race does bring its own twist on the class as you mentioned. I usually use humans for my characters because I love the feats and skill points but I also really like half-orcs and dwarves.
The tactics all look fine to me.
No I didn't. Favored class went into skill point, whereas your build had favored class going to HP. So he was not overspent. Otherwise, thank you. :)
So if I don't respond soon, it's not 'cause I'm ignoring you. ^-^Sure...likely excuse...isn't the general rule that if you don't respond in 24 hours you forfeit? ;)
Well it does seem that people will try to ruin your good name. I suggested throwing lit rocks and such down hallways to avoid ambushes, an the next thing you know ciretose is implying unrealistic dungeons and such. Thing is, if there are enemies further down, then they likely either already know you're there (if you have a light source), or you are making the encounter even; as you see what's up ahead while revealing your presence. Either way, you are preventing your "scout" from getting ambushed by himself.
Also, for anyone else wondering, I'm not sure what the DC is for hearing someone cast a spell, but I'd probably put it at DC 0, for hearing the details of a conversation. You add +1 to the DC for every 10 ft. away (which is DC 8 if you're outside the radius of a torch's dim light), and then situational modifiers like +5 for hearing it through a door, +10 per foot of a wall, and so forth.
The lit rock deal is also a good method for illuminating water inside underground caverns and such, where it's otherwise dark. Toss the rock in the water and let the water settle, and then you have lit water, so you can more easily see stuff that may be lurking within.
I have never found "scouting" with a single person to be a good idea. All it takes is to miss an enemy who makes a good Perception check, or notices you're there via scent, and that's all she wrote. Now you're down a party member and a scout. Easy to happen too. The scout is wandering through unknown territory, when, let's say a big cat (cougar, panther, tiger, lion, or maybe a dinosaur, or AM BARBARIAN) notices you coming, possibly by smelling you. SetScoutCondition=Dead; and now your party still doesn't necessarily know what's up ahead, and you're down a party member. Same with NPC enemies. One of them notices you for some reason, and in the surprise round you become a pin-cushion or eat a few lightning bolts or something. Sucks to be the scout.
Alienfreak, what I am doing is seeing how the ranger is built for each level. It's one thing to say that a level X character can do Y, but if the character can't survive the lower levels, then it really isn't a viable build. This is how I build every character I play, regardless of level. If I join a group with a level 15 character, I build if level by level and make sure that it is viable at every level. It's a weird quirk I have. I applaud Ashiel's willingness to do this. I tried this with someone else a while ago with the uber-wizard concept. He would never provide any information on how to play the invincible wizard at all levels of play. While Ashiel has not claimed that the ranger is invincible, I still want to see how she would build it and what makes it a more interesting choice for her. I look forward to see what the plans are for level 2.
I'll try to write up the ranger at 2nd level soonish. I'm in Myrtle Beach with my family for a dance competition, and I'm on my sister's computer. So I'm using it when she's not. In the meantime, I would evaluate what I suggested before. There won't be much difference between 1st level and 2nd level, except we'll have +6 HP, +1 BAB, +1 Fort and Ref, +5 skill points (I'd dump 2 of these into Stealth at this level, grab a MWK Tool (Stealth)), purchase a couple of cheap consumables (like enlarge person potions), and maybe get a wand of cure light wounds with a few charges remaining (maybe like 10 charges). Otherwise, focus on masterwork tools (like climbing bracers, padded boots or dampening cloak, survival kit, etc). They're decent investments for 50 gp.
I'll try to post something a little more solid soonish.
Ciretose, your fighter has too many skill points also. If you dump Intelligence, you only have 1 rank plus the favored class.
For both builds, there is little reason to not use power attack so I will have it turned on. Here they are together so we can compare them easily.
** spoiler omitted **...
Well, I'm not sure if I agree with the little reason not to use Power Attack. In my opinion, Power Attack is less useful at 1st level, but it's nice to have. The +3 damage is usually overkill when dealing with low-level foes, as the +6 from a 2 hander can likely cause your minimum damage to drop most foes, and so the extra accuracy is something I like, unless dealing with foes who are bigger or have more hit dice (possibly after being buffed).
Otherwise, yeah, all's good. :)
It does seem a bit strange that the stealthy scouting technique involves throwing flares in darkened areas. I'm not sure how stealthy that it, but maybe I just make more than my fair share of perception checks.
The reason I suggested that is because Stealthy scouting techniques aren't super reliable at 1st level. Your modifiers aren't that amazing, unless you're something small with a very high Dexterity (I mentioned that goblins are arguably the absolute best sneaky scout), and you're asking to die by ambush when you come across an NPC (be it humanoid or bestial) who notices you and you not it (which is pretty easy, especially if you have no way of gaining concealment to use to Stealth, a creature has scent and notices you coming, etc). Even a simple guard dog (just a basic house dog) is enough to give away your presence the moment they notice you coming. Do you really want to be significantly far away from your party when a chihuahua alerts the den of angry orcs with 17-18 strength scores, darkvision, greataxes, and 1d4+4 slings to your presence alone in the dark, where the party can't see you? Because if you're far enough from your party that the non-stealthies won't easily be noticed due to distance penalties, you may be getting yourself into trouble.
@Ciretose & Alienfreak: I too prefer humans most of the time. The bonus feat and extra skill point are generally good options, and darkvision is indeed overrated, but I'm okay with half-orcs because Bob had a half-orc, and I don't feel general effectiveness with the Ranger is dependent upon Race very much. Ferocity would be worth something if he was a real orc, but the half-orc ferocity is underpowered and pretty lame (Ferocity essentially being Die-hard as a bonus feat is pretty sexy).
Also, if you're a low Int Fighter, I highly agree with Alienfreak, human is almost assuredly the way to go. Minimum of 1 skill point from class, +1 from human, +1 from favored class = 3 skill points per level. That's enough to at least dip random stuff to get the +3 mods, or to attempt checks that can't be used untrained.
Even if you went full-on killtastic, and was something like an Orc (say 20-22 strength at 1st level, 5 Int, and 5 Cha), you could still pull at least 2/level from your favored class. Ferocity is very nice at low levels as well, since it gives you a solid cushion before you're out of the fight completely.
I don't like dumb skills as 7 int or similar. Since is a RPG you'll have to roleplay it... boring. It's not only a matter of skill points.
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I don't like dumb skills as 7 int or similar. Since is a RPG you'll have to roleplay it... boring. It's not only a matter of skill points.
Based on past history, Ashiel will now explain to you how you can roleplay a genius with a 7 int.
If we all agree on Human, let's do human.
My Ability scores are as I posted most recently, throw another skill my way so that I am now up to 4 per level (two figher, one favored class, one human) and let's make that extra feat iron will.
I know how to roleplay a int 7 :) I don't like it. It's a good characterization, for an NPC, however :P
I know how to roleplay a int 7 :) I don't like it. It's a good characterization, for an NPC, however :P
You know a way to roleplay 7 Intelligence, but ability scores are not hard and fast. Ability scores are not universally the same. Otherwise, the only way to roleplay a 19 Charisma would be to act like a Hag, since Hags (of the Night variety specifically) have 19 Charisma.
Which is one of the advantage of Darkvision...
It is one of the advantages, and would work pretty well if your entire party had darkvision. However, just going with the standard races for a moment, that's 3 (half-orcs, gnomes, and dwarfs) out of 7 (dwarfs, elves, half-elves, humans, half-orcs, halflings, and gnomes) that have it; so going without a light source usually isn't an option unless everyone is prepared for it, and being blind is usually worse than risking the loss of surprise.
If your entire party has darkvision, you only have to worry about things outside of your sight range, such as drow, who can see you fine from 120 ft. away. Or being in dim light, instead of darkness, where your darkvision is completely useless. In general, having a decent light source is often a good deal. A sunrod is cheap and provides 60 ft. of bright light and 120 ft. of dim light, which is pretty super (especially for elves, half-elves, and so forth).
I think Darkvision is great, but it's not great enough to warrant splitting up from your party, possibly leaving their ability to perceive you, and risk getting killed and placing your party in a worse situation (as now you would be dead, they would be down a party member, and the bad guys know something is up).
If we all agree on Human, let's do human.
My Ability scores are as I posted most recently, throw another skill my way so that I am now up to 4 per level (two figher, one favored class, one human) and let's make that extra feat iron will.
Now you would be over. If your Fighter has between 1-8 Int, you would get 3/level, not 4. That's minimum 1 for HD, 1 for favored class, 1 for human.
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If your entire party has darkvision, you only have to worry about things outside of your sight range, such as drow, who can see you fine from 120 ft. away....
So rather than worry about being subtle, just cast spells with verbal components on rocks so they can be really visible and throw them randomly down hallways.
I think Darkvision is great, but it's not great enough to warrant splitting up from your party, possibly leaving their ability to perceive you, and risk getting killed and placing your party in a worse situation (as now you would be dead, they would be down a party member, and the bad guys know something is up).
While hurling glowing rocks around raises little suspicion.
Guard 1 "What was that?!"
Guard 2 "It's just armored fireflies. Let's go back to all staying exactly where we are and attacking the player in appropriately spaced groups after they have had time to buff."
Guard 1. "Cool plan, bro."
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Now you would be over. If your Fighter has between 1-8 Int, you would get 3/level, not 4. That's minimum 1 for HD, 1 for favored class, 1 for human.
Nope
16 strength (18 from boost) 10 points
14 dex 5 points
12 con 2 points
10 int
12 wis 2 points
7 charisma -4
total 15 points.
+2 Fighter, +1 Favored, +1 Human = 4 skill points.