Here's the party composition, 15 points buy:
Drow Bard 5 (ranged)
Drow Cleric 5 (vanilla evil cleric)
Dwarven Alchemist 6 (mad bomber, only fire damage)
Hobgoblin Fighter 6 (switch hitter)
Svirfneblin Summoner 5 (multiple attacks per round eidolon)
My first mistake, if we can call that a mistake, was to allow the 3.5 bard spell called Inspirational Boost in my game. It's cast as a swift action and it increases the bonus given by Inspire Courage by 1. It didn't seem game breaking a few levels ago, but now the bard can give +3 on attack and damage rolls to everyone in the party, including the eidolon, the alchemist's bombs and, correct me if I'm wrong, the undead animated by the evil cleric as a standard action. In 2 levels, only a move action will be required to perform this awesome feat. Still, I could deal with that, but the cleric has Prayer on his daily 3rd-level memorized spells list, which stacks with Inspire Courage for a total bonus of +4 on attack and damage rolls. Add to this situation the fact that the summoner is casting haste at the beginning of every battles and this bonus increases to +5 on attack rolls and +4 on damage rolls. This bonus also affect the extra attack gained by everyone in the party because of haste. Oh, and the bard also has Gallant Inspiration in his known spells list just in case that, for some obscure reason, one of them happens to miss his target.
As you can see, the PCs have a very synergic selection of spells. The only thing that can stand against them in battle are monster with insanely high AC or magic-users (silence, wind wall, glitterdust, dispel magic, slow, stinking cloud, etc.) While there's nothing wrong with throwing magic-using opponents against the PCs, I would like to be able to challenge them with more "mundane" monster from time to time. The problem is that this party is very strong on the offensive side, but pretty weak on the defensive side. Only the fighter and the cleric have a decent AC, the bard doesn't even have Mirror Image in his known spells list, and monsters that would be able to stand against their offensive power would also annihilate the entire party with a single full-attack action.
Do you guys have any suggestions on how I could handle the situation? Right now they are still under control, but the cleric didn't animate any undead yet. I'm afraid that things could get pretty ugly pretty soon. Did any of you dealed with such party before?
Inspire courage is a mind-affecting effect (the whole thing, so they shouldn't even be getting the competence bonus). How are the animated undead being affected by it? Normally they should not be. I call shenanigans.
Otherwise try a golem?
One of the most terrifying kinds of encounters are against enemies with a good plan and solid tactics. Look up Tuckers Kobolds for an idea of what I mean. I can think of a laundry list of dirty and mundane tricks that, say, a group of wily rogues can employ to foil a caster heavy party.
Does the party use any other notable tactics aside from buffing like crazy? If they keep sticking to the same methods then chances are enemies will soon wise up and plan accordingly.
Really inspirational boost isn't bad. Its only a +1, and eats his swift action.
I would say the svirfnemblelumle is the biggest problem.. but seriously.. -4 cha on a Cha dependent class? Summoner though is a fairly powerful class.
The drow shouldn't be too terrible, provided they arn't using noble template.
Check the eidolon. More often than not, unbelievably strong eidolons are also unbelievably wrong. They can however get very strong: if the build is right, but you think it is unbalancing nonetheless, talk the player into changing evolutions/base form so that you all can have fun again.
I recommend Lantern Archons in a swarm because:
1) DR 10
2) Flight
3) 30' Range on 2d6 bypasses all DR light based attacks.
4) Aid
5) Teleport
6) Archon's Aura
I think Archons are the perfect answer to an OP Evil party, and the CR on them is low, so you can really pile them on. Make sure to use tactics well.
If the Eidolon can not fly, never come within 30 feet of the ground. The lanterns all come into combat with Aid on. When ever they lose their d8+3 temporary HP, another Archon re casts Aid on the 'wounded'. When they are low on health, they teleport away with any gear that fails the holder's will save.
As an aside, you should:
1 - Get a copy of each character sheet
2 - Read up in the forums on each character in the party, check the optimization forums, the FAQs and so on to make sure that the characters are all in keeping with RAW, both in creation and in play.
3 - politely speak to the character(s) you have issue with and ask them if they would mind altering their characters to make them more in keeping with how you want your world to work.
4 - pay careful attention to the Summoner, a 15 point build cha dependent class with a -4 cha racial mod. is screaming foul play to me. Assuming he bought a 16 cha so he would have 12 at the end of the day, thus enabling him to cast second level spells, he is down 10 points. Leaving him with a 12 and a 13 for con and dex most likely.
5 - your average level 5 eidolon will be much more powerful than your average level 5 15 point buy character, but none the less consult the APG, the Eidolon is still limited to 4 attacks maximum and 8 points in evolutions.
Inspire does not work on undead or mindless creatures.
A rule reference for that would be appreciated.
Check the eidolon. More often than not, unbelievably strong eidolons are also unbelievably wrong. They can however get very strong: if the build is right, but you think it is unbalancing nonetheless, talk the player into changing evolutions/base form so that you all can have fun again.
The Eidolon is not the problem here, he gets down really fast in most battles.
Start using Paizo's Critical Fumble (and Hit) Deck. I've lost count the number of times the Eidolon has taken itself out of combat with a nasty Critical Fumble. In one encounter it's multiple attacks resulted in two fumbles in one round!
Reebo
I already do, but thanks! :)
Really effective tactics, no matter what level.
1) Swarms.
2) Scads of enemies (say, a dozen enemies of CR - 5), armed with things like flasks of acid, alchemist fire, tangle foot bags, and slings or bows. Really effective if they're fronting for one big nasty sniper. I just about TPKd an 8th level party with 30 1st level goblins armed with slings, flasks and tangle foot bags. :)
3) Flying mounted eidelon with invisibility or greater invisibility cast on the eidelon and the rider. Especially effective with a lance and spirited charge.
4) Harpies. Harpies are nasty, especially with a few class levels (say, a summoner with a wand of invisibility or scrolls of greater invisibility). It's especially useful if they're encountered in a flock, if there's 4 harpies, that's 4 will saves. Those work great on the melee types like fighters.
5) in a dungeon, a few dozen small earth elementals can totally ruin their day. Hit and run tactics. Don't do a stand up fight, have the earth elementals ambush them from the walls, stay one round of attacks, then fade into the stone. Get them to cast their buff spells, then fade away. Heal up, do the same thing 30 minutes later. Elementals don't need to eat or sleep, so they can attack every 1d6*10 minutes and the casters won't ever get their spells back.
One of the things that my rogue character did to save himself/others spell damage or save or suck was to hold my action until that castor starts casting, then attack him with ranged damage. Especially with pathfinder rules, the save to have the spell disrupted is pretty difficult. You might not make any friends amoung your PC's, but it should disrupt their spells.
One of the things that my rogue character did to save himself/others spell damage or save or suck was to hold my action until that castor starts casting, then attack him with ranged damage. Especially with pathfinder rules, the save to have the spell disrupted is pretty difficult. You might not make any friends amoung your PC's, but it should disrupt their spells.
You can't do that with a held action.
Only with a readied action. I assume you actually meant a readied action to attack the caster when he starts casting.
I did that to a goblin wizard in my friday night game. A frost giant knew there was a wizard around, and the goblin was mouthy and the only one talking and going in and out of the tiny hut (so he had to be the one that cast it, to the giant). So while the goblin was in the hut, he readied an action to throw a stone at the goblin if it started casting.
Goblin comes out, declares a fireball cast.
Goblin get's hit in the chest with a stone bigger than he is tall.
Goblin flies back 10 feet and takes his entire hit point total +5 and instantly goes unconscious.
Everyone else pours out of the tiny hut and gasps in horror at the goblin smear.
3 - politely speak to the character(s) you have issue with and ask them if they would mind altering their characters to make them more in keeping with how you want your world to work.
Works for any build, any system.
You can't do that with a held action.
Only with a readied action. I assume you actually meant a readied action to attack the caster when he starts casting.
I did that to a goblin wizard in my friday night game. A frost giant knew there was a wizard around, and the goblin was mouthy and the only one talking and going in and out of the tiny hut (so he had to be the one that cast it, to the giant). So while the goblin was in the hut, he readied an action to throw a stone at the goblin if it started casting.
Goblin comes out, declares a fireball cast.
Goblin get's hit in the chest with a stone bigger than he is tall.
Goblin flies back 10 feet and takes his entire hit point total +5 and instantly goes unconscious.
Everyone else pours out of the tiny hut and gasps in horror at the goblin smear.
Right, right, I meant readied action. Guess the goblin failed his save vs disruption!(flavor text/joke)
edited for rule disclaimer
Nope, he didn't get to make a save. Spell auto-failed when he went from full HP to -5 HP in one shot.
I knew you were going to swoop in with raw, I edited before I read your reply!
LOL
He's just lucky I don't use the 'massive damage' death rules. :)
Silence is your friend.
Inspire does not work on undead or mindless creatures.A rule reference for that would be appreciated.Inspire Courage says it is mind affecting in the third to last sentence.
Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for! I knew about the undead immunity to mind affecting effects, but I could not find the Inspire Courage = Mind affecting part.
Also, if your summoner is hitting everyone in the party with haste on the first round of combat every fight, it means that your PCs are always walking around in Fireball Formation (which is to say, a formation in which they can all be struck by a single fireball). Since only the eidolon should possess evasion, this is definitely the spell to be having any enemy casters use.
And battlefield control spells as well. And area effect spells. A little bit of rogue and tumble gets some of your mobs beyond their tanks and into the "soft underbelly". As someone else mentioned, you've got a 5 member party, so feel free to increase the challenge level. Or, if you're using mooks, toss in a level or two for spellcasting — even a grease spell can make a difference. Let alone a daylight, even from a wand, at the right time.
One of your biggest concerns here is going to be forcing the party to expend resources... As always, make sure you aren't letting them get away with a 15 minute work day. At fifth level, your summoner should only have 2 to 4 second level spell slots to cast haste with, which means if you ensure they're running into 3 to 5 (or more) encounters in a day, at least one of those should be fought without haste. If your PCs pull the "we're going to rest cause we're out of haste" move, feel free to have them be attacked while they're rest/sleeping (hint: unless your summoner has invested in a very specific set of feats, he won't have his eidolon when you do this).
To add to expending resources — each haste only lasts 5 rounds. So use hit and run tactics to draw out combat encounters. Etc. How many rounds of inspire courage does the bard get? How many uses of prayer will the cleric have?
You could use a mook to make them buff up, and then draw out the encounter until the effects start wearing off. Are they going to buff up again? If they do, and they try to get out of it with a 10 minute workday, go ahead and hit 'em hard. At the very least, it will push them out of their comfort zone.
I've got a bard with inspire courage and haste in my group of PC's (I DM) and the cleric in the group used to use bless but now uses prayer, so I feel your pain. I don't consider that overpowered. They're just using perfectly good spells (haste is arguably too good, but that's not to be debated in this thread). The bard is now to a level where she can cast haste as standard action and inspire courage as move action.
But enemies at this level (APL 9-10) also start getting good defenses that help them combat buffed players: dispel magic, blur, mirror image, displacement, invisibility, etc. I strive to mix up encounter types to keep the players on their toes. Some encounters they do very well (and get to feel truly powerful or tactical or whatever) and others they struggle with but power through. Let them have their well-deserved victories and constantly look for interesting enemies for them to encounter. Good luck!
Silence is your friend.
Archer cleric, cast silence on a arrow, then shoot the caster when they try to cast a spell via a readied action. No disruption check, the spell simply fails.
One of the most effective I've seen for a group like that is:
Scattered field of kobalds
Set about 30 kobalds scattered all over a field with crossbows. Some of them even out of range.
Any that are approached by the party, just run and evade.
Any not approached fire crossbows mildly poisoned (dex).
Here's the kicker. Just put a bunch of them as level 1 sorc with true strike and a little stronger poison. On any given round, half of them are behind cover casting true strike and half are firing with true strike.
With screaming kobalds scattered all over the place they shouldn't be able to tell which are the sorcs.
When say a third of the kobalds are taken out the rest run away to set up in another part of the grass lands and do it all over again.
The PC's will take some hits, probably fail a few saves, but it shouldn't wipe them out. So it will teach them to take things more seriously.