Yeah, I noticed that a lot of people that complain about Strength being used for weapons cite "speed" or "quickness" as reasons it should be Dexterity. But in reality, the speed with which you can wield a weapon is far more a function of Strength than it is Dexterity.
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I've been thinking about this situation a bit lately, and I think I may try adding spears, short spears, and staves to my list of finesse-able weapons for a test run. Watching professionals use these weapons only serves to reinforce the "speed & finesse" point of view, in my mind. Power is definitely a factor, but speed and precision are just as important.
Dexterity and Wisdom are both very poorly defined attributes with blurry lines around their functions.
Dexterity should not really determine speed--Strength should. The original Dexterity was used for Ranged attacks, Rogue skills (only rogues had them initially), and AC (but it was not necessarily dodging before--you could wear Full Plate and still get full benefit from Dexterity, so I always imagined it more like precision parrying).
Wisdom was really just another word for Piety. It did absolutely nothing except determine Divine related junk. It only later became about perception and willpower--there was no perception initially, you just saw what you looked at and didn't see what you didn't.
So really, I don't think it is that big of a problem that Spears can't be finessed--I think it's more of a problem that weapon finesse and the Agile weapon enchantment exist at all.
Actually the issue of what 'controls' a weapon, Dex or Str is a false debate.
Once the wielder has enough strength to shift the weapons weight without relying on it's own momentum, Dex is the issue. This is why truly balanced weapons around which energy is applied in a pivotal fashion were so prized. For heavy ended weapons therefore the wielder had to become the pivot.
Weapons tended to vary between these two extremes, with, arguably Str most important for heavy ended, Dex for balanced and a mix of the two for those which weren't merely one or the other.
If anyone is truly interested to house rule this, then there should be a Str 'threshold' for each weapon, and Dex could then be an attack modifier. Alternatively you could recategorise weapons into having a Str only, best of Dex/Str or Dex only primary stat for attack bonus.
I am sure with a little work this could work.
However, having done martial arts and medieval rennactment, I have to say that the staff (bo or quarter) is blanaced and therefore primarily a Dex controlled weapon relying on speed of movement and correct grip, tension and footing to transfer force. I have seen big armoured guys put on their asses by people half their size.
The spear on the other hand is partially balanced and so is primarily Str in one hand but and Str/Dex in two hands.
Life is more complex than d20....
Life is more complex than d20....
Who would have thought ;)
+1 to Caliburn
Spears and Staffs not being finessable is not for real-world reasons because the whole system is not real-world.
I guess Paizo didn't want to see spears and staffs in the hand of finesse PCs for the sake of backwards compatibility, game balance and sheer looks :)
But that is easy to houserule, just finesse away with as many weapons as you like.
As mentioned before in this thread, it's all about balance. It may not make sense to you from a "Reality" standpoint, (I put that in quotes because we're talking about a fantasy world here) but they do it so that it doesn't break the game. They're not fineseable for the same reason that a kusarigama isn't a finesse weapon. You have reach, if you use dex to hit you're going to have a high dex, every creature moving up to attack you provokes an AOO, you take combat reflexes and power attack, win.
Honestly I think it really is a matter of the weapon. I think the spears and quarterstaves as presented in the core book are appropriate for not being finessable.
I think the light flexible spears often weilded by eastern style martial artists, and similar quarterstaves ought to be different weapons with slightly different rules. When I think of a quarterstaff ala dnd I am thinking of gandalfs staff, big, heavy, thick, not finessable. European Mideval spears were big heavy things designed to deal with horsemen, the spear used in a kung fu film is a different animal entirely. Just create a new set of weapons (possibly exotic) that are in fact finessable and your problem is solved.
Balance is a lame excuse for badly written rules. The game is inherrently unbalanced anyway, so you might as well let dex fighters use a spear.
Okay then, tell me, what 2h weapon aside from the elven curveblade is finessable?
Roshan -- the spiked chain.
Regarding the OP discussion --- this isn't necessarily a "good" reason, but I think it's basically--because then they can't be simple weapons. Weapons with a lot of features (trip, disarm, finessable; or combines decent damage with xyz) tend to end up as martial weapons. But then if you made spears and staves martial weapons, could you have wizards be proficient in them.... and we get into a big muddy situation involving retro-compatibility versus simulationist logic, etc. etc. etc.
BUT---I think there's a solution to this issue. Some weapons have the ability to do more if you have "extra" proficiency. Classic example: martial proficiency allows you to use a bastard sword as a two handed weapon proficiently, but exotic lets you use it one handed. APG (and probably UC) adds other weapons where X proficiency allows proficient use, but Y proficiency allows you to use extra abilities.
So... say---for everyone who has simple weapon proficiency, spears and staves work as written. For people who have martial weapon proficiency, spears and staves are also finessable weapons.
It's a house rule, but, eh, see if it works?
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Elven fighter using a finessable spear = Prince Nuada from Hellboy 2.
:P
Whatever. Dex and Str are abstract and the system is unbalanced. I'd say the two handed sword, glaive, and two handed hammer are dex based. An agile guy can really move around and set up shots better than an equally strong clumsy guy.Balance is a lame excuse for badly written rules. The game is inherrently unbalanced anyway, so you might as well let dex fighters use a spear.Okay then, tell me, what 2h weapon aside from the elven curveblade is finessable?
I think the rules are fairly balanced, not perfectly balanced as I don't think that's acheiveable (even if it is, no doubt it would be a bland game if it were.) And the rules are fairly well written, though again, not perfectly so.
I think the fact that an Elven curved blade is finnessable is the fluke, IMO, spears and quarterstaffs are not finessable nor should they be finessable weapons. At best the only finessable weapons should be light weapons. Spear and Quarterstaff are fairly heavy weapons, so weapon finesse should never be applicable to those weapons.
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A Friar Tuck staff-monk or 'spear dancer' barbarian inspired by the crazy peeps in the Wheel of Time novel could be funky, if the rules for those weapons didn't suck so hard.
I kind of loved the quarterstaff (great parry!) and spear (impaling damage and good stop-thrust options) in GURPS, but I've seen nobody really do anything with either in D&D/PF, since some weapons are just flat out better than others, and spears are pretty much junk in this system.
Even the theoretical ability to intercept a charge with a longspear has, in the six levels I've tried to make use of it with one character, *never* actually worked. (It's like counterspelling. Any combat option that requires you to announce what you are doing to the GM, and then give up your action waiting for him to do what you are planning to intercept, is a great way to stand around all combat waiting for what he's *obviously never going to do.* Might as well just spend the combat lighting a lantern, as providing light for your allies will be more useful than standing around holding your spear in a threatening position, waiting for some fool to jump on it and kill himself.)
I'm not sure that Weapon Finesse even deserves to be a feat. Some weapons should just be finesse weapons, and anybody should be able to use their Dex mod to attack rolls with them. Tiny creatures should also automatically have the ability to use Dex for attacks, instead of almost every tiny creature (like the various familiars) having Weapon Finesse as their obvious default feat choice...
Too many feats that allow options that anyone who has swung a sword for a few levels should already be able to do, like go on the reckless offense (power attack), or play defense (combat expertise), or sacrifice hitting power for accuracy, or using your awesome agility to make up for your feeble musculature to swing a light weapon more accurately.
Eh, I've had PCs in 3x if not PF, that used quarterstaff, whip and sling as primary weapons, based on certain builds based on themes I have used in the past. Ineffectual weapons are ineffectual for munchkins, weapons like anything else can be used for flavor too.
A quote from my incredibly long-winded posts about katana and finesse, in which I break down at least one possible (but IMO decently described) philosophy for the application of finesse.
Overall, there really is no reason why it should get finesse. Follow the thinking here for a second and I will come to a conclusion that can allow for it. Weapon finesse generally seems to be for weapons of mostly inferior status for warfare compared to the weapons around them. It is made for weapons that essentialy gain zero benefit from swinging with two hands. The dagger gains very little from two handed use by comparison to a felling axe or greatclub. Weapon finesse is there for weapons that are essentially inferior to full battlefield weapons. Shortswords fall under that reduced two-handed benefit and are for war sure, however the rest of the light weapons are more or less not intended as main combat weapons as much as they are tools or secondary items. There are three (core) combat weapons that allow for finesse to apply, the rapier, elven curve blade, and the spiked chain (The whip is a tool, deal). The curve blade is used later. The spiked chain is odd, and the rapier falls more into the "reduced impact of using two hands" catagory. Even then, if we are trying to use reality, the rapier is most frequently paired with a shield or buckler and some form of armor for military use. The whole "If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls." nixes the idea of weapon finesse for sword and buckler men. So in general, weapon finesse is not appropriate for most combative type characters. Between the limited and,save the rapier, totally inferior weapon selection, finesse is not a main combat feat but instead something to bring a bad selection closer in line with a more combat oriented one. It allows characters without much investment in strength and little use of shields, like many rogues or bards, to use their inferior weapons at a slightly closer level to a real dedicated martial combatant. The duelist is the exception here, however the duelist isn't really . . . worth the time or effort. It is neat, like the one-handed fighter variant, but of reduced strength than most fighters, much like the one-handed fighter. It does neat things, unfortuate that most of those are not related to actually dealing damage or attacking.
Now, since they decided to add the elven curve blade in as a core weapon, that does throw the regular framework out the window. I support the core notion of weapon finesse, however if modified I would suggest that you be able to use weapon finesse with the normal selection and in addition with any weapon your are proficent with for a really generous rule, any you have focus with if you needed a more difficult requirement, or else take finesse away from the curve blade. It is one pound lighter than the greatsword or falchion and is essentially a sized up falchion. It is a vicim of the "elves use dex Wheee!" mentality. There is no real reason for it to be a finesse weapon. If it is related to a special combat style, requiring focus could work. If it is related to how the weapon is naturally used then proficencey seems to work. Otherwise it has no reason to be a finesse weapon, or on the other hand for the normal longsword to not be finesse.
(This is getting long winded, bonus points for you if you are still bothering to read.)
As it is, they have printed the Aldori Dueling Sword(ADS) which is described to the letter as a katana, just without using the term. The implication is that it does intentionally break the conventions of regular weapons and weapon finesse. The finesse is indeed the whole point of the sword. Two feats, exotic weapon prof and weapon finesse, are needed to turn this weapon into a finesse two-handed sword and this was viewed as potent enough to merit the exotic weapon prof just to unlock the chance to use finesse on what is just a regular longsword. They offered the trait "Sword Scion" that gave an automatic proficencey and a +1 trait bonus to hit with the ADS, and assuming that the Samurai get the ADS type mechanics for the katana I would expect that many samurai characters would take a relevant trait for that if they really wanted to be finesse swordmasters. Over 90% of samurai will be content to just use their bastard sword and not bother with finesse type things. If it gets finesse, and the ability for one-handed use, it will look like the ADS. It will not see an increased threat range like all of the other curved blades, just like that threat range increase was not placed on the ADS.
Basically if you gain real appreciable benefit from two-handing the weapon, it isn't within the guidelines for weapon finesse. Weapon finesse is a component of a weapon's construction in the case of combat effective weapons (ala rapier) or else gets to be a broad option for light sidearms and a number of small, easily weaponized tools.
As for the quarterstaff and spears, I suspect that a finessable selection of either would be doable (balanced against the curve blade in concept, as much as I dislike the weapon's concept). Just drop down the damage dice one step, add finesse and have fun. The printed spear and quarterstaff are more of the anglo-saxon thick, hefty oak implements rather than the lighter flexible bamboo spears or thin rattan staffs that come to mind for finesse.
Further, to the OP
Just like other quick and stabbing weapons (and yes, you can 'stab' with a quarterstaff), spears and staves benefit just as much from lightning-fast strikes and stabs as from brute strength, and are as much a finesse weapon as a dagger or rapier. Now, not all spears should be finesse (a boar spear or lance is just too heavy and awkward to be an 'accurate' weapon), but short and regular spears (and maybe even longspears) definately should be finesse-able.
Finesse is not giving you lightning fast attacks, it is just letting you use your "agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength" or otherwise put, it is making your "agility, reflexes, and balance" replace your "muscle and physical power" for the purpose of landing melee attacks that can deal damage, though still not as effectively as pure "physical power" in that you will have less damage. More or less, you are now aiming around armor rather than powering through it.
I might ask why the boar spear is too ungainly to be used finesse, but the longspear (A.K.A. The Pike) would. That boar spear probably is more agile than a full sized pike.
The problem of this whole discussion has some quite different aspects seldom mentioned. Armor, armor categories, AC and how hitting works and different classes/concepts depending on different stats.
It´s very easy to set up a STR full BAB with heavy armor, being difficult to hit, have a lot of HP and deal a ton of damage.
Now with DEX it´s much more difficult, needing an extra feat, dealing less damage, probably not full BAB, but probably also easier to hit.
Paizo itself did something there with the armor as DR optional rule, that at least at low levels covers reality much more. A guy in heavy armor moves slower and is better to hit, but more difficult to hurt. Without armor or light armor its the opposite.
So now tell me how a guy in heavy armor uses a finesse weapon.
Just like the quarterstuff magus type, its RAW legal, but actually doesn´t make much sense, since he is using the quarterstuff more like a spellbuffed club.
Weapon Finesse should be limited by armor and encumberment.
Also it should not be a feat, but keyed to specific weapons.
There can be a difference if you use them with finesse aka less damage, but they also should have a higher crit range them, since its more precision damage.
Some weapons could be hybrid, needing special proficiencies to be finessed or to apply STR to damage.
Also this should not be a houserule, but errata for the whole game.
Why?
Because there is a logical mistake behind this whole thinking.
Some guys made up classes and concepts and expressed them with rules, what is fine. But its a difficult process and there were some mistakes 25 years ago, that are transported untill today.
Classes already have different BAB´s, reflecting martial prowess.
Now individual characters can have different stats, reflecting individuality.
Now handling the already ruled attack types so differently punishes them twice.
By the way, where is that trait called "sword scion"?
Didn´t see it before and couldn´t find it.
Balance is a lame excuse for badly written rules. The game is inherrently unbalanced anyway, so you might as well let dex fighters use a spear.Okay then, tell me, what 2h weapon aside from the elven curveblade is finessable?
Elven Courtblade, from the D&D 3.5 book Races of the Wild.
D&D 3.5 weapons don't count in this discussion. What other finessable Pathfinder weapons exist, than Elven Curveblade. Answer nothing.
By the way, where is that trait called "sword scion"?
Didn´t see it before and couldn´t find it.