So, I recently changed my kingmaker sessions from a weekly to monthly game, partly because of rising disinterest in the campaign, partly because of 2 new players who wanted to be introduced to Pathfinder on the day of my weekly games.
So, just to prove my increasing annoyance with a 6-player group, that didn't really work together right, utterly wrong, my players had one of the best session in a while over - hold on and sit down for disbelief - random encounters. Yes, indeed.
Now, why I have 3 Allosaurusses, being mounted
The exploration proceeded with relative boredom, until I introduce the 6th or something more encounter of a session which took about 12 hours (4 pm. to 4 am.), introducing a Bestiary 2 monster, the Allosaurus, in a gruop of 3. The Ranger (guide)/General decided to approach these ferocious beasts, intending to befriend them. Note that this ranger is an ex-gnome, female and 50+, reincarnated as a human male teenager (oh yes, I rolled that randomly, aged included). I quickly decide that I want a Handle Animal check of serious DC, which, on a natural 20, the ranger makes smoothly. He/she (confusion not made smaller by the player being female) suceeded in taming the 3 dinosaurs, and went on to offer the bard (sandman), who was charmed with the Huge size dinosaurs, to ride one. They spent a full week bringing the dinosaurs to a measure of domestication (still dino-like, mind you). The bard and ranger now ride Allosaurus mounts and try to keep them from eating the horses (by now a rare species of mount for my group, though) and everything the players kill.
So, my little, big Allosaurus problem goes a little like this:
I have one player, the teams diplomat/bard/trap-stealth-person, deciding to take Handle Animal and Ride as skills on her next level, with the purpose of using a dinosaur as a diplomatic maneuver. And giving it Stealth-training, to stealth about on a Huge size dino.
The other dino-rider, the ranger, is even more charmed with the beasts and have so far several times sttod between an Allosaurus and its meal, successfully teaching them only to eat what they're given - or at least, so far. She/he really wants to use this Allosaurus in combat, to the point that I'm designing a person-enlarging magical Allosaurus saddle for her.
I expect my absentee player, a (semi-feminist) Fighter may also want an Allosaurus mount.
None of these players have a chance to acquire actual "animal companions" though, and can therefore not easily train and modify these Allosaurus (such as by giving them Armor Procifiency feats) to allow for barding. While Allosaurus mounts are surely hardy and more unlikely to die in combat than horses will ever be, especially the ranger does want to use her/his dino for a combat mount, meaning sometimes letting the Allosaurus attack. This has the player so excited about the game, that it even over-shadowed the dragon mount the Duke has been saving up for, taking extra feats for (on top of his Leadership) and finally got in that same session.
In other words, I couldn't possibly find it in me to deny my players their beloved dinos. This event gave the game some seriously needed enjoyment. But how do I handle 3 Allosaurus mounts, that the player not only want to ride, but want to use in combat and are willing to change and respecialize their entire characters for? Issues:
- Size (more or less handled by reach weapons (two players already use these) and enlarge person for the other)
- Dino Armor, or "My players want to protect their dear dinos". In other words, they are talking about seeking out dragons to make dragonhide armors or getting enormous chain shirts of even breastplates or full-plates for their Allosaurus "friends". Only, the dinos can't get proficiency, are enormous, and generally rules for "Allosaurus armor" seem more than slightly difficult to acquire/make up.
- The fact that these mounts are, in fact, formidable combatants, which my players are playing to have their marshal (a retired druid, who also did the reincarnation) awaken. They are even willing to use their Leadership feats on this...
Any tips? I am presently working through rules, item creation with the purpose of Allosaurus riding/fighting and looking through how I can let my players control these mounts etc., but any kind of idea/previous experience/anything else really to assist the situation would be very much welcome.
In a short summary, the one thing I won't do is remove the Allosaurus mounts, as they are becoming the new source of happiness and fun for my players, and it will really disappoint them to loose their hard-won dinos.
So, I recently changed my kingmaker sessions from a weekly to monthly game, partly because of rising disinterest in the campaign, partly because of 2 new players who wanted to be introduced to Pathfinder on the day of my weekly games.
Hmm... Well, a couple of thoughts spring to mind.
Firstly, the Awaken spell. It grants them intelligence, but frees them up to be their own "person". Lots of RP potential there. Do they like being ridden? Do they want a cut of the treasure if they're helping in the fights? Maybe they want a say in government (Dinos have rights, too!). Give one or two some funny accents and weird quirks, and your players will love 'em even more.
As to using them in combat, I'd treat them as hirelings or something. They may increase the APL, so you will likely need to beef up encounters a bit. And allow them to be raised from the dead (or reincarnated!). But that, of course, means...
Dungeons and large or huge creatures might not work well. So sometimes, their dino mounts will need to be left outside to graze (on kobolds or local barbarians or something, I expect). Maybe let the players research and create a new spell: shrink dino. That will allow them to bring their scaly friends into dungeons (though not ridden).
All in all, if your players are getting excited, I'd run with it. You can work it so that it doesn't overpower their characters, and can bring in new role playing opportunities. Always a Good Thing<tm>!
Well, I'm letting them decide about awaken for themselves, as they do have one of the players former characters (a druid, whose player is now spellslinger wizard (industrial revolution, anyone?)) who is able to cast awaken. I DO wonder if those dinos like being beasts of transport at all. I doubt it. They'll have arguments like "When do I get to kill something?" all the time.
As for shrink dino, that's a good idea, though Kingmaker is low on dungeons anyway, so it'll hardly be much of an issue. Except in a few situations, and I don't know if I won't like how an overly good team will deal with dino-grazing (they're allied with the damn kobolds, and usually reform bandits to work for them, so that leaves relatively low amounts of dino-food readily available).
My greatest concern is actually dino equipment (they want to give them barding). I can't see them accepting huge-enormous penalties to the treasured dinos, but giving those dinos Proficiency feats for armor out of nowhere seems just a little sad.
Good note on the APL, will have to check that (again... 6 players + dragon (Leadership cohort) + multiple dinos + incoming constructs soon...meh, I might as well rewrite every single encounter from now on)
Well, I'm letting them decide about awaken for themselves, ... I DO wonder if those dinos like being beasts of transport at all. I doubt it. They'll have arguments like "When do I get to kill something?" all the time.
Seems like a great opportunity for someone trying to make trouble for the PCs -- infiltrate and awaken their dinosaur mounts, then plant some ideas in their head. ("Did you know that citizens of Tatzylford taste like chicken? True facts.")
they are talking about seeking out dragons to make dragonhide armors ... it even over-shadowed the dragon mount the Duke has
Um, *awkward*.
Well, I'm letting them decide about awaken for themselves, ... I DO wonder if those dinos like being beasts of transport at all. I doubt it. They'll have arguments like "When do I get to kill something?" all the time.Seems like a great opportunity for someone trying to make trouble for the PCs -- infiltrate and awaken their dinosaur mounts, then plant some ideas in their head. ("Did you know that citizens of Tatzylford taste like chicken? True facts.")
Hmm, I'm tempted, but I think trouble will create itself. I won't go out of my way to bother them over something that's presently the highlight of the game.
they are talking about seeking out dragons to make dragonhide armors ... it even over-shadowed the dragon mount the Duke hasUm, *awkward*.
Yeah well, it seemed so to me first, but I comes to me that clearly something unexpected is naturally more interesting tham something well planned. Something that gives more players action in an awesome ways is more likely to be the the focus of attention than something which may be more awesome on its own but only touches one player a lot.
If you're still concerned about adding armor to the allosauri, what about Permanency? It's a sorc/wiz 5 spell that specifically states "The GM may allow other spells to be made permanent."
I suppose it's not as exciting as dragon armor, but it's a lot less work and potentially as much or more of a cash drain on your players - or and adventure hook to quest to find the extremely rare scrolls of spells the players aren't able to cast yet or learn themselves (since Mage Armor, etc. isn't on the official/approved list for Permanency).
Also, Reduce Animal is a Druid 2/Ranger 3 spell that requires the animal's willing consent - so that's one less item for you to have to research!
My greatest concern is actually dino equipment (they want to give them barding). I can't see them accepting huge-enormous penalties to the treasured dinos, but giving those dinos Proficiency feats for armor out of nowhere seems just a little sad.
Make sure they pay through the nose for barding up a huge creature. That can't be cheap. But I have to wonder exactly why they're bothering. The things already have +10 natural armor.
I think you'd be well within their rights to flat out deny them any armor feats and, if they insist on barding the allosaurs tell them they'll have to suffer the non-proficiency penalties. If they go with modest armor, the penalty isn't that severe. If they go heavier, at least they know what to expect.
Keep in mind, also, that since these allosaurs haven't been reared as domestic, they're still wild. (N)PCs without handle animal will have a great deal of difficulty with them, as will other animals. Can the allosaurs resist eating the other horses or livestock that share the space with them?
You've got a world with magical items, feel free to use them to provide your player's opporunities.
Magical rings/saddles/etc creating an armor spell that appears as real barding.
A magical saddle providing the stead proficiency feats with armor.
In fact you could make one of these saddles appear on your "random" magic item rolls for the kingdom or as a reward for one of the quests.
I would handle this in one of three ways or maybe a combination of them.
The most fun way in my mind is the Awaken idea. This solves many problems. Each of the players could take their Allosaurus as a monster chort and as the players level the monster would be able to gain class levels and thus get feats and abilities to match the players style. This deals with the armor proficiency problem and offers great roleplay material as the dinos start acting according to the classes they will eventually go into. I would also play the dinosaurs off each other by giving them distinct personalities and maybe even alignments and do something like The Three Stooges or Alvin and the Chipmonks. An Allosaurus bard would be a sight to see.
One feat, one spell and endless hours of fun.
Another way i would deal with this situation is to write a prestige class and allow players to dip and deal with some of the issues you want to address or let them stay in it and really accel. This is more of an investment for the players but is sounds like they wouldn't be opposed to it. This is a very 3.5 way of dealing with this situation but if you think this would be a good way to go id be happy to help write out the class with you. If you tailored the prestige class to work with any cohort based mount or any really big exotic creature your dragon rider could join in on the fun too.
The last way i would deal with is the magic item route. Its honestly a little lame. It feels like waving the hand at the problem and making it go away. Making magic items to augment the prestige class or to mesh with the Allosaurus' class choices would be cool and interesting but if you players want to make this a big focus of the campaign and are willing to invest in it. reward their investment and they will continue to have more fun.
just my thought, sounds like a fun problem.
It isn't so much a problem as a confusement. I want to make this awesome, but gosh, I just did NOT expect them to bloody tame those.
The Handle Animal DCs are being mean, but what can I do, the ranger keeps throwing well on them. I've had a lot of 25+ (even a 32 or so) rolls, and nothing critically low. And really, I'd feel bad to spoil they fun over one bad roll. That said, Their idea of Allosaurus patrols in the city MIGHT very well get out of hand... (plots Allosaurus running rampant in the streets... muwahahaha)
The want for barding seems to be logical to me. They're in love with their "little" pets and I doubt they like the idea of seeing them wounded. And, for one or another reason, my PCs have managed a huge-enormously wealthy kingdom (I'm looking at throwing some mean penalties after them soon, just so they don't start drawing a fortune out of the kingdom, the greedy little ones!), sp super-expensive Allosaurus armors is the kind of thing I need to touch their wealth enough for them to feel it.
I think I'm going to try the awakening idea... It's probably inavoidable anyway. I'll start giving them personalities... They already have genders and names assigned. For the interested, some spoilered info:
As for prestige class or such, I doubt I'll do this unless they ask (I have a month between sessions, so I should be able to cook up something if they really want it). That said, it might be an idea for the ranger, as she/he is enthusiatic enough to be willing to give up several levels for the Animal Lord (template?) from the Bestiary 3 (she wants to put a lot into caring for these beasties!).
Thanks for the input, anyway. I may come back to you for more, as this develops. For now, onward to strange and unexpected things!
I haven't read it myself, but if nothing else you could probably get some inspiration from The Genius Guide to the Dragonrider and their followup freebie with 8 feats.