I've seen a lot of chatter about how Arcane Mark can be used with Spellstrike and Spell Combat. I can't for the life of me figure out how. Could someone please explain why?
Arryn Raven wrote: I've seen a lot of chatter about how Arcane Mark can be used with Spellstrike and Spell Combat. I can't for the life of me figure out how. Could someone please explain why? The offhand spell you cast is Arcane Mark, and you deliver the spell with your blade (to get a second attack). Essentially, it's a weaker version of two-weapon fighting that often requires one to cast defensively.
I personally think it's really thematic (and probably intentional). And, as a result, I can play a magical version of Zorro. "I mark you with this Z!"
Some people don't like it, and that's because they're poopy heads.
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Arryn Raven wrote: I've seen a lot of chatter about how Arcane Mark can be used with Spellstrike and Spell Combat. I can't for the life of me figure out how. Could someone please explain why? Spell Combat allows you to make your normal attacks with your weapon (full attack) and also cast a spell with your offhand. Arcane Mark is a spell, so you can cast it with your offhand.
Spellstrike allows you to deliver a touch spell on the magus spell list with your sword, instead of with a touch. Arcane Mark is a touch spell on the magus spell list, so you can deliver it with your sword, instead of a touch. Since you're hitting the enemy with a sword instead of just touching them, you must hit normal AC not touch AC, but when you hit, you deal weapon damage in addition to discharging the spell. So if you hit with Arcane Mark via Spellstrike, you deal weapon damage in addition to marking them.
Using both together lets you cast Arcane Mark, attack to deliver it with your weapon via Spellstrike, and also let you full-attack. As Rubia said, at low levels it lets you get two attacks with the same weapon at -2 penalty, similar to Two-Weapon Fighting.
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There is no argument about the RAW, it works.
The only argument against it is that some people believe that it wasn't meant to work like that by RAI. As though every touch spell on the magus list wasn't checked twice.
ShadowcatX wrote: There is no argument about the RAW, it works.
The only argument against it is that some people believe that it wasn't meant to work like that by RAI. As though every touch spell on the magus list wasn't checked twice.
And considering that it's worse than a monk's flurry of blows, it's another case of people over-reacting... much the way they did when 3.5 came out claiming that the Mystic Theurge was a 'broken' PrC!
-James
james maissen wrote: ShadowcatX wrote: There is no argument about the RAW, it works.
The only argument against it is that some people believe that it wasn't meant to work like that by RAI. As though every touch spell on the magus list wasn't checked twice.
And considering that it's worse than a monk's flurry of blows, it's another case of people over-reacting... much the way they did when 3.5 came out claiming that the Mystic Theurge was a 'broken' PrC!
-James I still get a giggle out of that one.
I can understand people with a low level of system mastery thinking it's a good PrC, but anyone who played 2E knows that being 2 casting classes at once isn't inherently unbalanced. Once you start learning to care about action economy, it's just such a mediocre PrC.
I like the Mystic Theurge. I plan to do the Magus7/Cleric3/Mystic Theurge10 one of these days. It'll take some love but spell combat with a 17 level magus and a 13 level cleric spell progression seems fun. Lots of options but yes it's one of those long long away in a galaxy far far ahead.
EDIT: Obviously not the best BAB but you'll have the spells to make up for it.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Khrysaor wrote: I like the Mystic Theurge. I plan to do the Magus7/Cleric3/Mystic Theurge10 one of these days. It'll take some love but spell combat with a 17 level magus and a 13 level cleric spell progression seems fun. Lots of options but yes it's one of those long long away in a galaxy far far ahead. What's the point of Spell Combat/Spell Strike if you can't hit anything? You're looking at BAB +12 at 20th-level. You'd just end up putting such a character where it shouldn't be: in melee. You don't even have the HP to last long with such a build.
EDIT: But obviously, you know this already.
The only thing I can see here that suggests cheese is that the Magus doesn't need 15 Dex to mimic TWF, meaning he can max out Strength and do extra damage on each hit. But then the Ranger can do that too and it hasn't caused any problems.
The real question is, if it's touch spells you use this with, why not just use a spell like Shocking Grasp and deal two weapons of damage plus the Shocking Grasp damage? Isn't that even more "broken"?
However, you can't Shocking Grasp all day. Cantrips no longer run out, meaning you can pull this off every round, every day.
Because you're limited in the number of shocking grasps. The argument is that using a 0 level spell provides all of your rounds of combat with a means of gaining the TWF. At higher levels this isn't an issue but it is one for a low level magus.
Ravingdork wrote: Khrysaor wrote: I like the Mystic Theurge. I plan to do the Magus7/Cleric3/Mystic Theurge10 one of these days. It'll take some love but spell combat with a 17 level magus and a 13 level cleric spell progression seems fun. Lots of options but yes it's one of those long long away in a galaxy far far ahead. What's the point of Spell Combat/Spell Strike if you can't hit anything? You're looking at BAB +12 at 20th-level. You'd just end up putting such a character where it shouldn't be: in melee. You don't even have the HP to last long with such a build.
EDIT: But obviously, you know this already. Its about flavor and having a different set of utility skills. There's many spells from clerics that can help you make up for the lack of BAB which is only 3 less than a 3/4 BAB will get. And I don't think being in being in melee is much of a problem when you can pull off a heal spell in the same round as you full attack.
I get that this isn't an optimal build but I don't build for optimization or min/maxing. I build for concept and fun.
Khrysaor wrote: Because you're limited in the number of shocking grasps. The argument is that using a 0 level spell provides all of your rounds of combat with a means of gaining the TWF. At higher levels this isn't an issue but it is one for a low level magus. Infinite is relative in this case. If you can do the trick as many times during the day as you have an opportunity to and it is an optimal strategy, it's as good as being infinite. Do you agree?
So with a few really cheap Pearls of Power, and the Spell Recall feature, maybe Extra Arcane Pool if you want insurance, you can pull it off as much as you will need to.
In any combat it will take you 2-3 rounds of attacks to kill monsters, 4-6 for a whole combat to end as an average. Some combats will go longer. Yes you can use shocking grasp and maybe kill something in a round but it might also be 2 rounds.
The argument here is for low levels and having a pearl of power is not something you would have until at least level 3 but probably level 4 or higher. At level 4 you get Spell recall and can use your arcane pool to get the spells back. Your arcane pool usage will be dependant on the arcana's you take. You will also be using it to increase the power of your weapon.
I do not agree with you that infinite is relative in any case where you have a limited resource. Just because you can do something x times a day and you only need it x/2 times a day doesn't mean it's infinite. The next day you could need it 2x and suddenly you are out of options.
I stated in my comment everything that needed to be said. At higher levels this isn't an issue but it is for a low level magus.
EDIT: IMO Shocking Grasp is a terrible choice for spellstriking for the first 3 levels at least. You have better options to use for your spells to grant better survivability.
Khrysaor wrote:
EDIT: IMO Shocking Grasp is a terrible choice for spellstriking for the first 3 levels at least. You have better options to use for your spells to grant better survivability.
A level 1 wand of shocking grasp at 750gp will take you through the low levels. And being as wands don't provoke, shocking grasp provides a +3 to hit vs metal armor and deals some damage.. it seems worthwhile.
But I agree I wouldn't memorize one for a bit. At low levels color spray and shield.
-James
The wand isn't functional with spell combat until you take the arcana at level 3. I'd rather swing my sword twice than use the wand once.
Khrysaor wrote: The wand isn't functional with spell combat until you take the arcana at level 3. I'd rather swing my sword twice than use the wand once. Well by level 2 with spellstrike, I think I'd go with the wand once for an attack at +3 over the chance to get two attacks at -2 each.
Once you figure in the concentration check, you'll see that you'll average more damage with the one shot.
And then by 3rd you can elect to take wand wielder as an arcana if you wish.
Now I'm not saying that I wouldn't use Arcane Mark, but its easy to do better.
-James
Even 1 hit with a weapon is better than 1 hit with that wand.
1d6-1d10 for your weapon + str vs 1d6 from the wand. Yes it's easier to hit with the wand but you have a greater damage potential with just attacking.
The DC to cast a level 0 spell defensively is only 15. Concentration is caster level + INT + misc. I wouldn't take any traits or feats for concentration as a magus since you get built in bonuses for it and your capstone is a DC27 for level 6 spells. At level 1 you could have a concentration of 5 meaning a 55% chance to get off defensive casting. Since we're talking spellstriking that's level 2 so it's a 60% success rate. Level 3 is when you can take the arcana and you'd already have a 65% success rate to get off arcane mark. You also don't have to waste the time to cast defensively. If you have a decent AC you could provoke the attack and hope there's no hit.
The one thing that people don't seem to mention on the spell lists for a magus is Illusion of Calm. It's a level 1 spell that lasts 1 minute a level. This spell allows you to cast whatever you want and you never provoke attacks of opportunity. Its the best spell a magus will get at low levels.
It should pretty much be your number 1 spell to be cast at the start of any combat. It also allows you to walk away from monsters without provoking an attack from the first 5' of threatened space you move from. If it can hit you it gets a will save to disbelieve it and can hit you as normal. Making a DC 15 will save for a level 1 monster is more unlikely than you getting off those defensive casts if you had to.
EDIT: My first arcana on my magus was spell blending and I took a couple 0 level spells. I really only did this so I could take Touch of Fatigue. This became my staple, forcing creatures to make the fort save or become fatigued. Never underestimate the power of a high INT magus.
Khrysaor wrote:
EDIT: My first arcana on my magus was spell blending and I took a couple 0 level spells. I really only did this so I could take Touch of Fatigue. This became my staple, forcing creatures to make the fort save or become fatigued. Never underestimate the power of a high INT magus.
I assume that this was am multi-classed magus/wizard then, correct?
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Yar.
LazarX wrote: Khrysaor wrote:
EDIT: My first arcana on my magus was spell blending and I took a couple 0 level spells. I really only did this so I could take Touch of Fatigue. This became my staple, forcing creatures to make the fort save or become fatigued. Never underestimate the power of a high INT magus.
I assume that this was am multi-classed magus/wizard then, correct? Why would he need to be?
Have you read Spell Blending?
Spell Blending wrote: Spell Blending (Ex): When a magus selects this arcana, he must select one spell from the wizard spell list that is of a magus spell level he can cast. He adds this spell to his spellbook and list of magus spells known as a magus spell of its wizard spell level. He can instead select two spells to add in this way, but both must be at least one level lower than the highest-level magus spell he can cast. A magus can select this magus arcana more than once. Select a spell from the wizard spell list. It must be of a Magus "spell level" (aka not higher then a 6th level spell). You get to ADD it to your Magus spell list even though it is normally/originally not. There is NO NEED to multiclass to do this.
~P
I has ssumed that spell blending was the arcana you took so that you could use spells of another class you had for spell combat.
Yar.
LazarX wrote: I has ssumed that spell blending was the arcana you took so that you could use spells of another class you had for spell combat. No, that would be Broad Study.
Broad Study wrote: Broad Study (Ex): The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class's spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components. The magus must be at least 6th level and must possess levels in at least one other spellcasting class before selecting this arcana. Assumptions are dangerous. If you're going to make comments about another persons use of the rules, or take part in any meaningful way in a rules discussion, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you actually READ the rules first, even multiple times. Don't skim them. Don't assume that the one time you read it several weeks ago (or even days ago) is sufficient. Read it again. Your credibility can only go up when what you say actually lines up with what others are reading (aka the rules of the game).
~P
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