First, of course, is the fact that 4ed, while a radical departure from D&D (you can convert a 1ed character to 3.5 or Pathfinder- in 4th, that guy will be rebuilt), it retains the name.cfalcon's post
I found this concept to be interesting. So, I pulled out my binder of AD&D characters that I still have from highschool.
I'd love to see this character easily converted to Pathfinder:
Gellor Rinknor, Fighter 11/Assassin 13
Chaotic Neutral Male Wild Elf
Str: 18/75 (+2 to hit, +3 to damage, +125 enc, force doors 1-4, bend bars 25%)
Int: 17
Wis: 14 (no bonus)
Dex: 21 (+4 surprise bonus, +4 to hit missile, -5 AC)
Con: 14 (+0hp, 92% res survival, 88% system shock) (multiple deaths)
Chr: 13 (5 henchmen max, 0% loyalty, +5% reaction)
Com: 18 (I don't have the stats for this on my sheet)
60' Infravision
Move silently and invisibly through woods and forests when alone and in no armor
Immune to sleep and charm spells
Immune to Ghoul Paralyzation
Detect Secret Doors 1 in 6 when within 10', 2 in 6 when searching (3 in 6 for concealed doors)
+1 to hit with bows and long sword/short sword
Languages: Common, elven, gnoll, gnomish, goblin, halfling, hobgoblin, orcish, chaotic neutral, thieves' cant, druids' cant, lawful neutral
XP: 1,956,496 (978,248 per class)
Fighter 11: 9d10+6 hitdice
Assassin 13: 13d6 hitdice
Hit Points: 49
Attacks: 2 per round (11 per round vs unskilled)
THAC0: 10 base
Vorpal Shortsword (double specialized): THAC0: 1
Shortsword, +1, +4 vs Reptiles (double specialized): THAC0 3/0
Longbow +1: THAC0: 5
Vorpal Sword damage: 1d6 (1d8 vs large)+9 (+3 magic, +3 strength, +3 double specialized)
AC: -8
Full Plate +2 (-11)
Ring of Protection +2 (-2)
Dexterity -5
Other Magic Items:
Cloak and Boots of Elvenkind
Dagger +4
Class Abilities:
Assassination: 115% chance of success, -5% per two hit dice of target
Backstab: +4 to hit, quintuple damage
Disguise: 2% chance to see through, +2% each if posing as a different class, race, or gender (max 8%)
Read Scrolls: may cast magic-user or illusionist spells from scrolls
Thief Abiliites (these assume that armor is removed, or otherwise able to be ignored)
Climb Walls: 99%
Find/Disarm Traps: 95%
Hear Noise: 45%
Hide in Shadows: 99%
Move Silently: 99%
Open Locks: 99%
Pick Pockets: 99%
Read Languages: 60%
Saving Throws:
Rod/Staff/Wand: 6 (2 if dex applies, 4 if armor applies, 2 if both apply)
Breath Weapons: 7 (2 if dex applies, 5 if armor applies, 2 if both apply)
Death/Paralysis/Poison 5 (3 if armor applies)
Petrifaction/Polymorph: 6 (2 if dex applies, 4 if armor applies, 2 if both apply)
Spells: 7 (2 if dex applies, 5 if armor applies, 2 if both apply)
Now admittedly, you can take an elf, buy stats as close to that as possible, and multiclass him from fighter to assassin... but the character will be COMPLETELY different. That said, it would be interesting. I might try my hand at a conversion and see how similar the two are, but others are welcome to try, too. (As an FYI this character was played pretty much weekly, often twice weekly, for 4 years).
Also... I'd like to point out that I'm actually being nice with this character.
I could have posted up my Druid/Thief multiclass that used a Wish spell to stop advancing as a thief and focus on druid that ended up as a Thief 9/Druid 15... with Psionics.
Now admittedly, you can take an elf, buy stats as close to that as possible, and multiclass him from fighter to assassin... but the character will be COMPLETELY different.
I would seriously disagree. Yes the skill system got a TON better so the 'thief' skills would change but he would still be able to do evetyting he could previously. Scroll use would be UMD. Move Silently, Hide Etc are all just 'stealth' now, Hear Noise is perception, Open locks is Disable Device, Pick Pockets is Sleight of Hand, read languages is Linguistics, climb walls is obviously climb.
You could pretty accurately recreate him, especially with the insane stats you have, just his total levels would be reduced to fit into the new character structure. 3.0 had a conversion book that told you just how much XP in the old systems became what in the new systems and you could adjust the levels from that for total character level as oppposed to multiclass level.
It takes a re alligning of expectations but you can probably pretty accurately recreate that character. Only thing you will really lose is the 'invisibily in woods' from your race and that was not working for you with the gear you listed in any case.
I would say 9th or 10th level fighter and perhaps 6 levels of Assassin would accurately recreate him.
Of course even in 1st edition you had to be evil to be an assassin so I assume you had a lot of house rules active to be one and stay Chaotic Neutral or to get the 21 dex, since that is 2 points over the max racial possible for a Wood elf or to even be 11th level fighter since Elves were capped at 7th.
Gellor Rinknor
Elf Male
Medium-sized Humanoid (Elf)
Fighter 7, Assassin 8
____________________________________________________________________
STATISTICS
Str 18 (+4); Dex 21 (+5); Con 14 (+2); Int 17 (+3); Wis 14 (+2); Cha 13 (+1)
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Movement: Ground 30'; Run x4
Senses: Low-light vision
Languages: Common, Elven
Initiative :+5
____________________________________________________________________
SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Appraise +3, Bluff +1, Climb +13, Craft (untrained) +3, Diplomacy +1, Disable Device +18, Disguise +16, Escape Artist +3, Fly +3, Heal +2, Intimidate +1, Perception +19, Perform (untrained) +1, Ride +3, Sense Motive +2, Sleight of Hand +18, Stealth +23, Survival +2, Swim +2, Use Magic Device +16
____________________________________________________________________
FEATS
Armor proficiency [Light, Medium, Heavy], Blind-fight, Dodge, Double slice, Greater two-weapon fighting, Improved two-weapon fighting, Improved critical (Short Sword), Martial weapon proficiency [all], Shield proficiency, Simple weapon proficiency, Tower shield proficiency, Two-weapon fighting, Two-weapon defense, Two-weapon rend, Weapon focus (Short Sword), Weapon finesse, Weapon specialization (Short Sword)
____________________________________________________________________
TRAITS
Armor Expert
____________________________________________________________________
DEFENSE
HP: 116
AC: 27, touch 16, flat-footed 26 (base +10; armor +11; dex +3; deflect +2; dodge +1)
CMD: 35 (base +10; BAB +13; str +4; dex +5; defl. AC +2; dodge AC +1)
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +9; (+2 racial bonus vs enchantments; +2 bonus on will saves vs fear; +4 bonus vs poison)
Immunities: magical sleep
____________________________________________________________________
OFFENSE
Base Attack: +13; CMB +17
Melee: +3 vorpal short sword +21/+16/+11 (1d6+10 / 17-20/x2), +1 bane (reptilian humanoids) short sword +19/+14/+9 (1d6+8 / 17-20/x2)
Ranged: +1 composite longbow (str +4) +19/+14/+9 (1d8+5 / x3)
____________________________________________________________________
SPECIAL ABILITIES
●Favored class benefit: +7 skill points
●Elven Magic: +2 racial bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance; and +2 racial bonus on Appraise skill checks made to identify the properties of magic items
●Elven keen senses: +2 racial bonus on Perception checks and have a chance to detect secret doors without actively looking
●Bravery: +2 bonus on Will saves vs. fear
●Armor training: Reduce armor check penalty by 2 and increase the maximum Dex bonus allowed by 2 for any armor worn
●Weapon training: Gain bonuses to attack and damage rolls for select weapon groups (Light Blades +1). This bonus is also added to CMB checks made with a weapon in a group, or CMD checks made to defend against weapons from these groups
● +4d6 Sneak Attack
●Death attack: Can choose to paralyze or kill a target with a melee weapon sneak attack, after studying the victim for 3 rounds (studying the victim is a standard action). On a successful hit the target must make a (DC 21) Fort save.
●Poison use: You cannot accidentally poison yourself when applying poison to a blade
●Hidden weapons: Gain a +8 bonus on Sleight of Hands checks when hiding weapons on your body
●True death: Targets slain by you are more difficult to restore life to. Anyone attempting to cast a spell similar to Raise Dead must make a (DC 23) caster level check or the spell fails and the material components are wasted.
●Quiet death: If you kill a creature with your Death Attack during a surprise round, you can also make a Steath check opposed by anyone in the vicinity to prevent them from identifying you as the assailant (its possible that the target's death may not be immediately noticed as well)
●Assassin hide in plain sight: You can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as you are within 10' of a shadow (not yours), you can hide yourself from view in the open without having anything to hide behind.
____________________________________________________________________
GEAR
Arms: +3 vorpal short sword; +1 bane (reptilian humanoids) short sword; +4 dagger; +1 composite longbow (str +4)
Magic Items: ring of ring of protection +2; ring of resistance +2; boots of elvenkind; cloak of elvenkind
Honestly there is no equivalent of 1st Ed multiclass[..]
Some multiclasses are fairly easy to do. E.g.:
cleric/magic-user => cleric/wizard/mystic theurge
fighter/thief => fighter/rogue
druid/ranger => mostly druid with a couple levels of ranger
I like the attempt at the character, and think that's probably 'very close', however... it's still not an identical matchup, it requires quite a bit of tweaking.
Also, some of the core issues start to come into play... you got close to my AC and To hit, but doubled the hit points. the saves are no where near as good on the pathfinder character, and the skills don't come close to the 1st edition versions.
And this was a relatively simple martial-only multiclass (that used a combination of errata, DM fiat, and effects that came from the modules at the time to get around alignment restrictions, stats, and level maximums).
(That's a thing, about 1st edition. Between wishes, decks of many things, magical fountains, and etc, stats were very, very malleable).
So, you've made a character that is similar to mine, but isn't a complete matchup. There's no quintuple damage backstab, for instance, which was used MUCH more often that assassination. Also, you've converted a 4-year old, nearly 2-million XP character into one that is sitting at half that XP, even at slow advancement rates... that might be an accurate conversion, but it's going to be spoiled when you have to also convert the Thief 9/Druid 15 with 7th level spells, the Drow Magic-User/Thief with 7th level spells, the 13th level Cavalier, and the 8th level Barbarian... especially when two of them have psionics, etc etc.
You can get close... closer than you can with 4th, but it takes a lot of editorial control to get even close, and the PCs will need to buy in with the adjustments that get made, the abilities that get cut away, etc etc.
You can get close... closer than you can with 4th, but it takes a lot of editorial control to get even close, and the PCs will need to buy in with the adjustments that get made, the abilities that get cut away, etc etc.
Yes, there isn't a one-for-one conversion from 1st to 3rd edition - especially when it comes to multiclass characters. I have a stack of old 1st edition characters myself (of the players' characters who I DM'd for) and enjoyed converting them to 3rd edition when we converted my campaign, so I thought I'd take a stab at yours too.
The Drow Magic-User/Thief wouldn't be too difficult as a Wizard/Rogue/Arcane Trickster would come close. The Druid/Thief is more difficult unless the player is happy enough with something like Rogue 1/Druid 14 and putting skill points into rogue skills. The 13th level Cavalier and 8th level barbarian are easy enough, but again the class abilities are somewhat different than what they were in 1st edition.
Edit: Regarding hit points and things like skills, don't forget that high level monsters do MUCH more damage than 1st edition monsters did so the hit points are appropriate. Also, skills try to beat a challenge rating and the base rating for most easy applications of skills is DC15 or lower so the skills are also a good reprensentation depending on what you are trying to do with those skills.
that might be an accurate conversion, but it's going to be spoiled when you have to also convert the Thief 9/Druid 15 with 7th level spells, the Drow Magic-User/Thief with 7th level spells, the 13th level Cavalier, and the 8th level Barbarian... especially when two of them have psionics, etc etc.
I think some of them are less "spoiled" than you think; you just have to let go of the idea that a PC with 9 levels of fighter or thief (say) in AD&D automatically equates to a PC with 9 levels of fighter or rogue in 3.5 or Pathfinder.
For instance, a Thief 9/Druid 15 with 7th level spells would equate to something like a level 15 druid with a few (maybe 1-3) levels of rogue. The only thing you'd lose is the x4 backstab (or whatever, can't remember), but you'd certainly have enough skill points to replicate the rest of your thief abilities.
For instance, a Thief 9/Druid 15 with 7th level spells would equate to something like a level 15 druid with a few (maybe 1-3) levels of rogue. The only thing you'd lose is the x4 backstab (or whatever, can't remember), but you'd certainly have enough skill points to replicate the rest of your thief abilities.
Hmm, Once you get high level as a thief, in 1st edition, there's no surface you can't climb, no lock you can't open, no pocket you can't pick. I don't think that having 18 ranks in climb is equivalent to 99% climb. You're replicating the ability... both characters can climb, yes, but one of them can climb anything, anywhere, at any time.
And again... we had a party in which a Fighter 11/Assassin 13 was not upstaged by the Thief 9/Druid 15 all the time... but if the F/A gets respecced as fighter 7/assassin 8, and the D/T goes to Druid 15/Thief 1, there's a really huge disparity there.
Again, I'm not saying that you can't convert them, just that the conversions are non-trivial. Also, Pathfinder/3.5 removes the ability to even play a 'real' multi-class character. You can snapshot them at moments in time, and get close, sure.
Basically... it's one thing to say 'you can convert 1st edition characters to 3.5 and get close!' and be relatively accurate. However, it's a very different game, and those conversions are probably not really going to work out well when you start getting into the nitty gritty... I didn't even go into my stronghold and followers for being a name-level fighter, for instance. You can say 'take leadership' but it's not the same, either. :)
I am wondering if what cfalcon was referring to was the AD&D to 3e conversion guide that WotC published when 3e was released. It was a .pdf you could download from Wizards.com you could use to convert your characters. The conversion wasn't necessarily perfect but it was a way to "officially" rebuild your favorite character from older editions to 3e.
For a multiclass or dual class character you took your highest level class, then added to that your other class levels divided by how many classes you had, to determine your total character level. Then you could split your total character level between your classes as you desired.
So for example for a thief 10/fighter 9, you'd take the 10 thief levels, then add (9 divided by 2, round down=4)=14th level character. You could split up the 14 levels as you like -- so you might do 7 Rogue/7 Fighter, or 10 Rogue/4 Fighter, or 13 Rogue/1 fighter or whatever as you like.
Ability scores were usually kept the same (you used the new system's modifiers of course, so often you got a slight power boost for physical stats); for Strength, 18s with a percentile value after it just became a number over 18. IIRC, 18(00) Strength was something like 25 Str.
Now of course since Pathfinder is evolved from 3.0, you could use the same guidelines to convert a character to Pathfinder.
The Fighter 10/Assassin 13 would be tough of course because Assassin is a PrC in 3.0 and doesn't have 13 levels to start with. But we know it would be roughly equivalent to a 18th level character by the conversion guide, and could divvy up appropriate classes from there as needed.
And by the time we've hit Pathfinder, we've of course got various classes and archetypes and other ways to reflect concepts. While I was writing this, a ninja named Marshall Jansen mentions a Druid/Thief--in pathfinder, we could probably call that an Urban Druid and be done with it. I know when I convert characters from one system to another, I try to think about reflecting the concept than being exact with stats. When I converted a half-elven fighter/mage I played in a 1st/2nd Ed hybrid, the idea was she was a monster-hunter and artifact-hunter, so I made her into a ranger instead of a fighter---in fact I would have in 2e except that multiclass option simply wasn't available. So there's leeway.
But the conversion guide is useful to determine character level at least.
There used to be published conversion rules from 1e all the way through 3.5 as I recall. I upgraded all of my old 1e characters to 3.5 and have since done my own conversion to Pathfinder.
Yes, that includes a fighter/cleric, a fighter/thief and a cleric who had psionics.
"Hurumph," *tweaks the hair on his beard* "Should never let players make wishes that are directed at Meta-gaming concepts, Hurumph," the old curmudgeon-y Dungeon Master says. "if the Character should wish to stop being a thief, then they should not be allowed to act as a thief, assuming the wish is granted, but to wish to stop advancing in a character class is as if the character wished to have their Armor Class permanently set to -4. Hurumph!"
My DM institured a secondary cost to that wish, that involved being out of game for nearly a year of real-time to complete the task given by the being that could make that wish happen... so he somewhat agreed with you!
Hmm, Once you get high level as a thief, in 1st edition, there's no surface you can't climb, no lock you can't open, no pocket you can't pick. I don't think that having 18 ranks in climb is equivalent to 99% climb. You're replicating the ability... both characters can climb, yes, but one of them can climb anything, anywhere, at any time.
From the 1st edition DMG:
"Climbing Walls: This is probably the most abused thief function, although hide in shadows vies for this distinction. The ability to climb walls is something which is acquired through training and practice, just as are most of the other functions of the thief. The rate at which vertical or horizontal movement is possible depends upon the texture and other conditions of the surface.WALL CLIMBING TABLE, FEET PER ROUND OF CLIMBING *
- surface very smooth - few cracks: non-slippery 6', slightly slippery 3', slippery 0'
- smooth but cracked - somewhat rough: non-slippery 12', slightly slippery 6', slippery 3'
- fairly rough and some cracks - very rough: non-slippery 18', slightly slippery 9', slippery 6'
- rough and with ledges or many projections: non-slippery 24', slightly slippery 12', slippery 9'
* SLIGHTLY SLIPPERY surfaces DOUBLE chances of slipping and falling. SLIPPERY surfaces make chances of slipping and falling TEN TIMES more likely. Thus a slippery surface cannot be attempted by a thief under 6th level and even a 10th level thief has a 10% chance per round of slipping and falling."
There's also the fact that the maximum chance on a theif's roll was 95%...96-00 still failed.
Skills higher then that were to offset penalties, which could become substantial very quickly. Like picking pockets - 135% pocket picking vs a 15th level character netted you about a 60% chance of success.
That f/ass character isn't legal in numerous ways. the Fighter levels probably are, by UA rules...high str scores gave bonuses to fighter levels possible, and wood elves could advance to one level higher then normal elves in fighter.
That is the MAXIMUM POSSIble str for an elf. In conversion terms, he'd be at a 22 under the old rules (w 18/76-90 a 23, 91-99 a 24, and /00 a 25)
I THINK elves were restricted to 10th level as asssassins, but the dex of 21 might have given a 3 level bonus. Note there's no way for the character to have a 21 dex without blowing 10 wishes in the old game...gauntlets of dex would only give him +1, and his racial max is 19. So, someone rolled hideously well on stats, I'll give him that.
As someone else pointed out, a CN assassin is as impossible as a LN paladin in 1E.
Multi-classed fighters were NOT allowed weapon specialization...
========
Don't worry at all about 'actual xp' for a character. XP totals for gaming are vastly different in the two systems. The only concern is levels.
I'd pop the str up to 22, but otherwise the conversion is pretty good. Not sure how Wealth by Level works out...that Vorpal Sword is a nasty peice of work to have!
==Aelryinth
*snip*==Aelryinth
I should have known better than to throw a heavily-house ruled character out here. Yes, all of these things regarding 1st edition are correct, including stat maxxes, class level restrictions, etc. However, our GM threw out most of the level restrictions based on something... Unearthed Arcana, possibly a Dragon magazine, possibly just deciding they were stupid once the campaign was three years old and the humans were still able to advance... I really don't know.
Also, I thought all the thief tables maxxed at 99% chance of success after modification, not 95%, but I'll grant that I could be wrong there. It very rarely came up, as thief skills at high level generally were pass-fail, if you couldn't reliably do it with a thief, you did it with magic.
Regarding stats: every other high level adventure had something in it that would boost your stats or kill you permanently. The stats could get silly relatively quickly. On the other hand, I lost my 11th level illusionist to a magic fountain, and my 13th level magic-user to a deck of many things. My assassin became Chaotic Neutral after a misfire of some magic trap that took him from Lawful Evil, and my DM declared I could continue leveling as an Assassin as long as the Guild didn't learn I was no longer evil, etc etc.
I will also point out that this was 1st edition, and as such all of us had 5-6 PCs, one of which was our main any given adventure, and the others counted as henchmen, getting less XP and treasure, but ready to step in as soon as one of the main PCs was killed. PC deaths happened pretty much every session, although most of them weren't permanent.
The most difficult conversion I've done was an early version of the Illusionist. Illusionists were introduced originally as a different type of wizard with major rules changes between Illusionist and "magic users". The conversion doc I saw didn't have specifics for Illusionists so I just did the best I could.
Just for fun, I decided to try my hand at the Fighter/Assassin too. Number 1 caveat the whole thing is I did everything by hand, and I suck at arithmetic, so there are probably errors. Number 2 caveat is this overlooks assassin PrC alignment restrictions, but the 1E build does too.
GELLOR RINKNOR
Chaotic Neutral Elf Rogue 4/Fighter 9/Assassin 5 (CL 18)
Move 30 feet
Initiative +5
Senses Low-light vision, Perception +25/+27 to find traps, trapspotter
AC 26 touch 16 flat-footed 22 (10+Dex 3+10 Armor +2 Deflection+1 Dodge)
HP 131 (9d8+9d10+36+9 favored class)
Fort +13 (+9+2+2) (+2 versus poison); Ref +15 (+10+3+2); Will +10 (+6+2+2) (+2 to saves vs. enchantment {elf} and fear {bravery})
Trap Sense: +1 to Reflex saves vs traps and +1 dodge bonus to AC vs traps
Evasion: Take no damage when making a successful Reflex save versus an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save. This only works in light or no armor and does not work if you are helpless
Immune: Magic sleep (and ghoul paralysis, but that’s now usually noted in ghoul statblock instead)
Uncanny Dodge: You are immune to flat footed condition and do not lose Dex/Dodge to AC when attacked by an invisible creature.
Improved Uncanny Dodge: You cannot be flanked except by a rogue of 13th level or higher.
Poison Use: You cannot accidentally poison yourself when applying poison to a blade.
Armor Training 2: Reduce all armor ACP by 2, increase max Dex by 2, and you can move full speed in any armor.
BAB +13/+8/+3
CMB +19
+3 Vorpal Short Sword +26 (1d6+13)
+1 Scale Slayer +24 (1d6+11) /+26 to hit reptilian humanoids and dragons (3d6+13)
+1 Longbow +19 (1d8+1) (+1 to attack and damage within 30 ft.) Range 100 ft.
+4 Dagger (melee) +25 (1d4+12)
+4 Dagger (thrown) +24 (1d4+12) Range 10 ft.
Sneak attack (Ex): Whenever you attack a foe with a melee weapon or with a ranged weapon within 30 feet, and the foe is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC or you are flanking them, you deal an extra 5d6 damage.
Death Attack (Ex): If you study a foe as a standard action for 3 rounds, and you successfully deal a sneak attack in melee within the subsequent 3 rounds, you can choose to also paralyze or kill your target. If your target is aware of you as a hostile enemy, you cannot use death attack. The target of the death attack must succeed on a Fortitude save 18 (DC 10+Assassin class level + Int mod) or, if you chose to attempt to kill your target, die; if you chose to paralyze your target, the target that fails its save becomes helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds + assassin levels (1d6+5 rounds). You deal normal sneak attack damage regardless of whether the target makes its save or not. You always must complete 3 rounds of study before making a death attack even if you’ve already made a death attack attempt previously.
True Death (Su): Spellcasters attempting to bring a foe you killed with death attack back from the dead using raise dead or similar magic must make a caster level check DC 20 (15+assassin level), or the spell fails and the material component is wasted. The caster does not have to make this check if they cast remove curse on the target first; the DC for removing the curse is 15 (10+assassin level).
Weapon Training 2: +2 to all attack and damage rolls with light blades and +1 to attack and damage rolls with heavy blades.
Str: 22 (+6)
Int: 17 (+3)
Wis: 14 (+2)
Dex: 21 (+5)
Con: 14 (+2)
Chr: 13 (+1)
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: You are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and the hand crossbow, and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields). You treat any weapon with the word “elven” in it as a martial weapon.
Hidden Weapons (Ex): Add assassin level (5) to Sleight of Hand checks when concealing weapons.
Trapfinding (Ex): Add 1/2 your rogue level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (+2). You can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever you come within 10 feet of a trap, you receive an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap.
Quick Disguise (Ex): It takes less time to create a disguise using the Disguise skill. It takes 1 full action to alter minor details, and one minute each to disguise yourself as a different gender, race, age category, or size category. This is cumulative, so if you wanted to disguise yourself as, for example, a female gnome, this would take 3 minutes.
Keen Senses: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Silent Hunter: Reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 and you can make Stealth checks while running at a –20 penalty (this number includes the penalty reduction from this racial trait). This racial trait replaces the elven magic racial trait.
Feats
L1 Weapon Focus: Short Sword
L3 Point Blank Shot
L5 Quick Draw
L7 Dodge
L9 Outflank (teamwork feat)
L11 Mobility
L13 Blind Fight
L15 Sidestep
L17 Improved Vital Strike
F1 Precise Shot
F2 Power Attack
F4 Weapon Specialization: Short Sword
F6 Vital Strike
F8 Greater Weapon Focus: Short Sword
Skills (124 ranks)
Acrobatics: 18 ranks + Dex 5 + Class 3 +ACP-1+Boots = +30
Appraise: Int +3
Bluff: Cha +1
Climb: 4 ranks + Str 6 + Class 3 + ACP-1 = +12
Craft: Int +3
Diplomacy: Cha +1
Disable Device: 16 ranks + Dex 5 + Class 3 + Trapf +2 +ACP-1= +25
Disguise: 8 ranks + Cha 1 + Class 3 = +12
Escape Artist: Dex 5 + ACP-1 = +4
Intimidate: Cha+1
Knowledge (local): 2 ranks + Int 3 + Class 3 = +8
Linguistics: 4 ranks + Int 3 + Class 3 = +10
Perception: 18 ranks + Wis 2 + Class 3 + Race 2 = + 25 (+27 to find traps)
Perform: Cha +1
Ride: Dex +5 +ACP-1=+4
Sense Motive: 2 ranks + Wis 2 + Class 3 = +7
Sleight of Hand: 18 ranks + Dex 5 + Class 3 + ACP-1 = +25 (+5 to conceal weapons)
Stealth: 18 ranks + Dex 3 + Class 3 + ACP-1+ Cloak = +30
Survival: Wis +2
Swim: Str+6 +ACP-1=+5
Use Magic Device: 16 ranks + Cha 1 + Class 3 = +20
Languages: Common, elven, gnoll, gnome, goblin, halfling, orc, thieves’ cant, sylvan
Equipment
+3 Vorpal Shortsword (128,310 gp)
Scale Slayer (+1 Short Sword, Bane to Humanoid (Reptilian) and dragons) (18,310 gp)
Longbow +1 (2,375 gp)
Dagger +4 (32,302 gp)
Ring of Protection + 2 (8,000 gp, +2 deflection bonus to AC)
Mithral Breastplate+4
(20,350 gp Armor +10, Max Dex Bonus +5, Armor Check Penalty -1, ASF 15%. Treat as light armor. )
Cloak of Elvenkind (2,500 gp; +5 bonus to Stealth checks)
Boots of Elvenkind (2,500 gp; +5 bonus to Acrobatics checks)
Amulet of Resistance +2 (4,000; +2 resistance bonus to saves)
Equipment is worth 218,647 (Could spend 311,353 more on gear)
Why I built this as I did--
I don’t know if this is really the “best” way to go about doing this, and it would probably be more effective to prioritize rogue/assassin levels for maximizing sneak attack. I’m okay giving both rogue and assassin levels since assassin was a subclass of the thief in 1E, and the rogue talents help “transfer” some abilities Gellor has from the original version to this Pathfinderization. I went for making a build that has most of the abilities as possible from the old version of this one. Since there was a lot of weapon training and weapon specialization going on, I opted for lots of fighter levels to reflect that (weapon training ability also fills in for loss of wild elf bonus to hit with swords and bows).
The 18 character levels is based on WotC conversion guide for 1/2E to 3.0 – take highest multiclass level (13) and add to it the number of levels of the other class divided by the total number of classes (11 divided by 2, round down=5). Per the conversion guide, I also just kept the stats as (presumably) rolled, just converting the 18/75 to a higher number (22—this may not be WotCs actual recommended conversion stat because I did this off the top of my head).
Elves have lost insta trapfinding, but I restored that ability to the character via trapspotter talent.
I did not allow Druidic language as that’s restricted to those with Druid class levels only, so changed that to Sylvan.
The character loses the limited racial “trackless step when alone and naked”; I replaced with Silent Hunter alternate racial trait for a loosely thematic match. Which isn’t as powerful but much less circumstantial and can be used with party.
Character converted has gained an extra attack per round and “THAC0” is improved by 3 – to hit armor class 0 needs a 10 or better, but this Pathfinder version, to hit armor class 20 you need a 7. AC is a little lower, relatively speaking. If you wanted to be more accurate and lower to-hit and number of attacks, less fighter levels and more rogue/assassin might do it.
Hard to compare saving throws, but generally this build seems to have decent saves.
And yeah, this build is going to have WAY more hit points—AD&D multiclassing halved hit points per level gain, meaning multiclassed characters are going to have low HP; Pathfinder characters in general are going to have way more because in addition to the way leveling works, hit dice have increased, as have, I believe, bonus to HP from Constitution. IIRC that was a very intentional change to 3rd edition and its children, to make PCs a little more survivable (whether one agrees with the change or not). I also gave this build the favored class boost to HP out of sheer laziness for ease of calculation. You could also add more skill points (boost up that Disguise and Climb) or look at racial options.
Sneak attack and death attack aren’t as devastating as the 1ed character’s assassination and backstab abilities… but OTOH, it is much easier to set up a sneak attack than a backstab, so the damage can happen more frequently. I added the Outflank teamwork feat—which grants a +4 to hit when flanking, as a nod to the bonus to backstab.
All analogous thief skills have been put into appropriate skills – Perception, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, Use Magic Device (for reading scroll ability), Linguistics (for read language), Disguise. I skimped a little on disguise as it is such a circumstantial skill, but I did nod to the assassin’s being good at disguises with the fast disguise rogue talent. I maxed Acrobatics instead of Climb as that’s just generally more useful in this game, but Climb score should be good to go for most essential circumstances that come up where climbing is useful. Threw a couple ranks into Knowledge local just for fun, and some into Sense Motive as that seemed appropriate. And you can use all these skills while wearing armor. :)
A lot of the feats were chosen just to maximize damage, including if he could not full attack, and to give the character some mobility (which sneaky characters tend to need). Quick draw was for easy weapon switching since the character has a lot of weapons, and Blind Fight for fighting against similarly stealthy enemies. Could replace some feats with skill based ones like Alertness or Skill Focus—and otherwise any other number of alternates could be possible. The most important for trying to “match” the 1E build was all the weapon focus and specialization stuff.
I tried to keep gear as directly analogous as possible, with two exceptions: I made armor mithral breastplate so all abilities could be used, because it acts as light armor, and I added a “amulet of resistance” which acts just like a cloak of resistance of course, but occupies the neck. The reason for this is IIRC, in 1st ed, a ring of protection added its bonus to both AC and Saving Throws. Since the ROP now only boosts AC, I wanted to add another item so he could keep his bonus to saves as well. Boots of Elvenkind of course do Acrobatics boost now; if you wanted, maybe add shadowed/silent moves property to armor to reflect soft walking gear?
The issue I always had with converting is that my 1e multiclass characters, who were of an appropriate power level to adventure with 10th level parties, all the sudden ended up at like 15th level when I converted them to 3e. No thanks!
The issue I always had with converting is that my 1e multiclass characters, who were of an appropriate power level to adventure with 10th level parties, all the sudden ended up at like 15th level when I converted them to 3e. No thanks!
I converted a characters level (multiclass, dual class, and single class) in 1e by totaling all of their XP and then compared that to what level they would have been if they were a straight fighter. That was the level I used to start the conversion process in 3e. I did this because 3e uses a unified XP progression table and character parties tend to work better if they are closely grouped around the same level range.
If someone wanted a lower level conversion they could pick a class with a slower advancement rate to base the conversion process on.
I should have known better than to throw a heavily-house ruled character out here. Yes, all of these things regarding 1st edition are correct, including stat maxxes, class level restrictions, etc.
So the problem is NOT the 3.5 game system or it's compatibility. It is that it does not replicate the house rules and game you were playing way back when. AND your expectations of your abilities from then are based on those house rules.
I stand by the statement that the rules do indeed very closely let you convert characters. Your 'climb walls' argument does not hold up when you read the actual 1st edition rules on how surfaces modify climbing chances. NOTHING was automatic for a thief back in those days, even an extremely high level one.
In fact, I would say that rogue skills today are far more reliable in game than Thief skills ever were in 1st edition.
Edit: Deathquaker, awesome job on an excellent conversion.
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So the problem is NOT the 3.5 game system or it's compatibility. It is that it does not replicate the house rules and game you were playing way back when. AND your expectations of your abilities from then are based on those house rules.
Even with a strictly RAW 1E character, the differences between the two systems mean that you're going to be going more for a a character that "feels" similar rather than one that is mechanically similar. Some characters will obviously come closer than others...for example, as pointed out above, the conversion of a 1E illusionist will be a pretty shoddy affair; while the conversion of a straight fighter could probably get pretty close.
Now, who wants to try this with a 1st edition BARD?
Well, post up the stats and see what folks can come up with. :) (I can't remember how bards worked--fighter-thief-druid?)
Gilfalas, thanks kindly.
Now, who wants to try this with a 1st edition BARD?
The Fochlucan Lyrist PrC in 3.5 was a straight-up attempt to emulate the 1e bard.
I'd love to see this character easily converted to Pathfinder:
Gellor Rinknor, Fighter 11/Assassin 13
** spoiler omitted **...
First you should convert it to D&D3.5 using the conversion guide from WoC , THEN from D&D3.5 to PFRPF using the conversiona guide available on this site...
So, you've made a character that is similar to mine, but isn't a complete matchup. There's no quintuple damage backstab, for instance, which was used MUCH more often that assassination.
Consider the sneak attack dice as your backstab. You are using a short sword, yes? That is a 1d6 damage. You've got +4d6 sneak attack dice. For a total of 5d6. FIVE times 1d6 = QUINTUPLE DAMAGE DICE! Hooray!
Master Arminas
The issue I always had with converting is that my 1e multiclass characters, who were of an appropriate power level to adventure with 10th level parties, all the sudden ended up at like 15th level when I converted them to 3e. No thanks!
When my fighter/cleric and fighter/thief ended up with more class levels, I simply truncated them to keep them at the same level. Since their gear and wealth was in line with the other characters I didn't need to adjust that. It worked out fine.
There's also the fact that the maximum chance on a theif's roll was 95%...96-00 still failed.
Skills higher then that were to offset penalties, which could become substantial very quickly. Like picking pockets - 135% pocket picking vs a 15th level character netted you about a 60% chance of success.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth, I don't believe that's correct. AFAIK, a 1E thief with 99% Move Silently fails only on a roll of 100. Can you tell me why you think otherwise?
You're right about picking pockets, though; in 1E if you try pick the pocket of a character above 3rd level penalties accrue.