Wizard Underpowered?

[Brain in a Jar]

So i was reading through the rules and i can't seem to understand how a Wizard is supposed to keep up with the other classes when;

1. They get to few feats to be versatile.

2. They lack spells per day thus seem to run out of spells quickly.

3. They don't get enough skill points per level, 2+Int is not alot.

4. Placing spells into spellbooks cost to much.

[GoblinWarmachine]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

So i was reading through the rules and i can't seem to understand how a Wizard is supposed to keep up with the other classes when;

1. They get to few feats to be versatile.

2. They lack spells per day thus seem to run out of spells quickly.

3. They don't get enough skill points per level, 2+Int is not alot.

4. Placing spells into spellbooks cost to much.

Perhaps they should get feats every even level, like a fighter? Make them only usable on meta-magic, crafting, and spell related feats.

[Brain in a Jar]

That seems like a good idea GoblinWarmachine. That would allow a Wizard to not worry about feat tax.

+1

[master arminas]

You are joking, I hope.

Master Arminas

[CaptainGolarion]

In my group, we upped the skills to 6+ Int, gave them D8 HD, and 1 extra spell per day per rank. This way they can at least keep up with the Martial classes.

[Studpuffin]

This thread is Tier 1.

Oh, how happy it has made me. :)

[GoblinWarmachine]

CaptainGolarion wrote:

In my group, we upped the skills to 6+ Int, gave them D8 HD, and 1 extra spell per day per rank. This way they can at least keep up with the Martial classes.

Upping the HD would definitely make them less squishy at earlier levels. I haven't played with a wizard who didn't take a death or two before 10. The skills might be much, but I'll probably use the HD and extra spells though.

[BlushingBard]

You need to explain why you feel this way, I don't quite understand.

[master arminas]

1. They get to few feats to be versatile.

Wizards get fifteen feats across their careers (human and half-elf wizards get sixteen). How is that too few?

2. They lack spells per day thus seem to run out of spells quickly.

They have more than enough, thanks to the bonus spells per day. Sure, they have less than a Sorcerer, but that is the Sorcerer's main thing. Giving it to the wizard too would be way too much.

3. They don't get enough skill points per level, 2+Int is not alot.

Refresh my memory here, but isn't the sole stat that a Wizard really needs to push into the stratosphere . . . . Intelligence? Oh right, it is! Any well built wizard will have more skill ranks than he knows what to do with.

4. Placing spells into spellbooks cost to much.

So buy a blessed book. 1,000 pages and you don't have to pay the scribing cost. And really, it doesn't cost that much to put spells into your book into the first place.

So, no. Wizards are not underpowered.

Master Arminas

[Brain in a Jar]

Yeah agree with the D8 HD, but i would give them 4+Int skills and perhaps a few extra feats at the even levels.

That would give the Wizard the versatility it needs to keep up.

[Sacredduegar]

I don't know this seems to be a little outrageous. Possibly giving them the sorceror spell progression should fix the problem.

[GoblinWarmachine]

master arminas wrote:

1. They get to few feats to be versatile.

Wizards get fifteen feats across their careers (human and half-elf wizards get sixteen). How is that too few?

2. They lack spells per day thus seem to run out of spells quickly.

They have more than enough, thanks to the bonus spells per day. Sure, they have less than a Sorcerer, but that is the Sorcerer's main thing. Giving it to the wizard too would be way too much.

3. They don't get enough skill points per level, 2+Int is not alot.

Refresh my memory here, but isn't the sole stat that a Wizard really needs to push into the stratosphere . . . . Intelligence? Oh right, it is! Any well built wizard will have more skill ranks than he knows what to do with.

4. Placing spells into spellbooks cost to much.

So buy a blessed book. 1,000 pages and you don't have to pay the scribing cost. And really, it doesn't cost that much to put spells into your book into the first place.

So, no. Wizards are not underpowered.

Master Arminas

I find them a little weak in the games I'm in. My DMs usually give them some sort of boost. They have such a hard time keeping up with the martial characters in terms of combat and survivability.

[Brain in a Jar]

Well GlitterSummoner, i just thought they have a hard filling out feats when they don't get alot. I mean a Fighter gets 21-22 feats by 20 and a Wizard only gets 15-16 feats.

As for skills allowing Wizards 4+Int isn't a huge change but allows them to really fill out extra skills other than the needed ones.

[beej67]

Learn to fly.

[ANebulousMistress]

I dunno... Wizards have the luxury of tailoring their spells every day so long as they're scribed. And most PC wizards are going to make sure to learn every spell in the CRB at least just because they can. And because bonus spells are based off of primary casting stat any wizard capable of casting all of the spells will be able to do so.

Battlefield control spells are so named for that reason. A high level fighter is still just hitting guys with swords. Really big swords for really big damage but still, hitting with swords. A wizard is bending space and time, rewriting reality, and in general bringing entire nations to their knees.

If you're basing wizards on their skill points, hit points, base attack, or even their feats then you're doing it wrong. Play one first then dare to whine that they're underpowered.

[Benicio Del Espada]

I give them the medium BAB, too, and medium armor proficiency. Otherwise, they suck at combat, and can't hang with the martial classes when they're surrounded by enemies.

[GoblinWarmachine]

beej67 wrote:

Learn to fly.

Flying doesn't help much if the enemy flies or if they have decent ranged. And when it takes 2 or 3 turns to get your defenses up the fight is nearly over, with the combat characters cleaning house.

[Brain in a Jar]

beej67 wrote:

Learn to fly.

That would require more skills points to be able to train in the Fly skill. Thus the 4+Int skills per level.

[master arminas]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Well GlitterSummoner, i just thought they have a hard filling out feats when they don't get alot. I mean a Fighter gets 21-22 feats by 20 and a Wizard only gets 15-16 feats.

As for skills allowing Wizards 4+Int isn't a huge change but allows them to really fill out extra skills other than the needed ones.

And the poor Cleric only gets 10-11. Oh, woe, what ever will this obviously inferior class do? Without those bonus feats, how will anyone ever play one?

I hope people can recogonize sarcasm, but if not . . . that was it.

Master Arminas

[Sacredduegar]

Benicio Del Espada wrote:

I give them the medium BAB, too, and medium armor proficiency. Otherwise, they suck at combat, and can't hang with the martial classes when they're surrounded by enemies.

I think these are pretty solid fixes. By doing this it lets them be about as usual as a cleric in combat after s*** hits the fan and they run out of spells for the day.

[GoblinWarmachine]

ANebulousMistress wrote:

I dunno... Wizards have the luxury of tailoring their spells every day so long as they're scribed. And most PC wizards are going to make sure to learn every spell in the CRB at least just because they can. And because bonus spells are based off of primary casting stat any wizard capable of casting all of the spells will be able to do so.

Battlefield control spells are so named for that reason. A high level fighter is still just hitting guys with swords. Really big swords for really big damage but still, hitting with swords. A wizard is bending space and time, rewriting reality, and in general bringing entire nations to their knees.

If you're basing wizards on their skill points, hit points, base attack, or even their feats then you're doing it wrong. Play one first then dare to whine that they're underpowered.

The problem is you don't know what's going to happen, so, at least in the games I'm in, most caster have an ok selection of spells, but never what would be best. Perhaps allowing spontaneous casting?

[Brain in a Jar]

master arminas wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Well GlitterSummoner, i just thought they have a hard filling out feats when they don't get alot. I mean a Fighter gets 21-22 feats by 20 and a Wizard only gets 15-16 feats.

As for skills allowing Wizards 4+Int isn't a huge change but allows them to really fill out extra skills other than the needed ones.

And the poor Cleric only gets 10-11. Oh, woe, what ever will this obviously inferior class do? Without those bonus feats, how will anyone ever play one?

I hope people can recogonize sarcasm, but if not . . . that was it.

Master Arminas

Well, at least the Cleric gets Armor while casting, the Wizard has to use what few feats he gets to train in armor and then has to spend a feat to have Arcane Armor Training to even use it.

[GoblinWarmachine]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

master arminas wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Well GlitterSummoner, i just thought they have a hard filling out feats when they don't get alot. I mean a Fighter gets 21-22 feats by 20 and a Wizard only gets 15-16 feats.

As for skills allowing Wizards 4+Int isn't a huge change but allows them to really fill out extra skills other than the needed ones.

And the poor Cleric only gets 10-11. Oh, woe, what ever will this obviously inferior class do? Without those bonus feats, how will anyone ever play one?

I hope people can recogonize sarcasm, but if not . . . that was it.

Master Arminas

Well, at least the Cleric gets Armor while casting, the Wizard has to use what few feats he gets to train in armor and then has to spend a feat to have Arcane Armor Training to even use it.

Extra feats would make the prereq tax for AAT worth it. I have never seen a caster take it yet, but perhaps because they are too feat starved?

[Moorluck]

So I see suggestions for upping their skill points raising their BAB, Hit Dice, Bonus Feats, and Spells per Day?

Okay, now lets just raise everyone else up to this SuperClass power level and we'll call it even.

*sheesh*

[Tiago Oliveira]

The problem is not Wizard been underpowered; it just is not so Versatil or resistant as overpowered class as bards, rogues and monks.

[Sacredduegar]

I have to agree with Benico and Brain on this. By not giving them at least a semi decent combat ability, like a cleric has, they lack the amount of spells currently to stay useful past 3-4 encounters per day. Currently no problem exists when there is less then 2 encounters per day but past that it's a stretch for them to be able to keep up.

[Thr3adcr4p]

Mmmmnnnn.. Smells like great grandma's house.

[Brain in a Jar]

Moorluck wrote:

So I see suggestions for upping their skill points raising their BAB, Hit Dice, Bonus Feats, and Spells per Day?

Okay, now lets just raise everyone else up to this SuperClass power level and we'll call it even.

*sheesh*

Sarcasm isn't very helpful. Not all of those changes should be done all at once.

For instance i think a few extra feats, 4+Int skills, and D8 HD would be fine.

[Moorluck]

Benicio Del Espada wrote:

I give them the medium BAB, too, and medium armor proficiency. Otherwise, they suck at combat, and can't hang with the martial classes when they're surrounded by enemies.

Their supposed to. Kinda like Fighters don't get a few spells so they don't suck at magic.

[GoblinWarmachine]

Sacredduegar wrote:

I have to agree with Benico and Brain on this. By not giving them at least a semi decent combat ability, like a cleric has, they lack the amount of spells currently to stay useful past 3-4 encounters per day. Currently no problem exists when there is less then 2 encounters per day but past that it's a stretch for them to be able to keep up.

I never understood why clerics get armor prof, a decent weapon selection (if War is taken), channeling, spontaneous healing, and domain spells when wizards just get spells and a few feats.

[pipedreamsam]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

So i was reading through the rules and i can't seem to understand how a Wizard is supposed to keep up with the other classes when;

1. They get to few feats to be versatile.

2. They lack spells per day thus seem to run out of spells quickly.

3. They don't get enough skill points per level, 2+Int is not alot.

4. Placing spells into spellbooks cost to much.

Compared to a cleric:

1. Clerics get fewer feats and generally have to be more versatile, nobody expects the wizard to swing a sword or shoot arrows, the cleric has to do this all while being a full caster. Yes the wizards gets restrictive bonus feats, but they are bonus feats nonetheless. Heck even getting scribe scroll for free is huge. My cleric would kill for those bonus feats.

2. Clerics barely get more spells, just one more from one of their domains.

3. Clerics hurt for skills badly. I am playing one right now and with human bonus skills along with being able to keep my Int above a negative I am barely skating by. Wizards have Int as a primary stat, they are fine

4. No argument since the casting is inherently different, but have you seen the WBL chart? Spells do not even make a dent in that.

[Moorluck]

master arminas wrote:

1. They get to few feats to be versatile.

Wizards get fifteen feats across their careers (human and half-elf wizards get sixteen). How is that too few?

2. They lack spells per day thus seem to run out of spells quickly.

They have more than enough, thanks to the bonus spells per day. Sure, they have less than a Sorcerer, but that is the Sorcerer's main thing. Giving it to the wizard too would be way too much.

3. They don't get enough skill points per level, 2+Int is not alot.

Refresh my memory here, but isn't the sole stat that a Wizard really needs to push into the stratosphere . . . . Intelligence? Oh right, it is! Any well built wizard will have more skill ranks than he knows what to do with.

4. Placing spells into spellbooks cost to much.

So buy a blessed book. 1,000 pages and you don't have to pay the scribing cost. And really, it doesn't cost that much to put spells into your book into the first place.

So, no. Wizards are not underpowered.

Master Arminas

This.

[master arminas]

The wizard--as written by Paizo for Pathfinder--is perhaps the single most powerful class. It needs nothing else. And if you can't see that, I sincerely hope that I never have you in my gaming group.

Master Arminas

[Brain in a Jar]

Moorluck wrote:

Benicio Del Espada wrote:

I give them the medium BAB, too, and medium armor proficiency. Otherwise, they suck at combat, and can't hang with the martial classes when they're surrounded by enemies.

Their supposed to. Kinda like Fighters don't get a few spells so they don't suck at magic.

Well care to explain Cleric then Sir?

Casting + Armor?

[Sacredduegar]

Moorluck wrote:

Benicio Del Espada wrote:

I give them the medium BAB, too, and medium armor proficiency. Otherwise, they suck at combat, and can't hang with the martial classes when they're surrounded by enemies.

Their supposed to. Kinda like Fighters don't get a few spells so they don't suck at magic.

Really? Fighters never lose effectiveness throughout the day they continue to truck out damage without getting worse as the day goes on. Wizards lose effectiveness as the day goes on. Fighters and the other martial classes are always really awesome.

[Jen the GM]

Not to mention, wizards can be shut down by an antimagic field. Martial classes don't have an equivilant.

Maybe make a feat that lets them cast in an antimagic field?

If you compare the wizard to any martial class, they simply can't keep up with damage and they can't deal that high damage for a long period of time. Maybe give them the ability to select one spell per level as a cantrip?

[Brain in a Jar]

master arminas wrote:

The wizard--as written by Paizo for Pathfinder--is perhaps the single most powerful class. It needs nothing else. And if you can't see that, I sincerely hope that I never have you in my gaming group.

Master Arminas

That sure is a fine opinion, but i must disagree. Wizards are not all powerful but are in fact very easily killed with out the support of martial characters.

[BEGS]

uhm if you use your spells to do dmg you will sucks as a wizard, however there are at least 10 spells per spell level that do stuff that can make any dm cry.

[Sacredduegar]

Jen the GM wrote:

Not to mention, wizards can be shut down by an antimagic field. Martial classes don't have an equivilant.

Maybe make a feat that lets them cast in an antimagic field?

If you compare the wizard to any martial class, they simply can't keep up with damage and they can't deal that high damage for a long period of time. Maybe give them the ability to select one spell per level as a cantrip?

I would disagree a little with this, fighters are hindered by effects such as sunder and disarm which hinder them almost as much. This might be a little far.

[Studpuffin]

Anti-Magic Field? Hehehe

Reverse Gravity shuts down any Martial Class.

[cranewings]

Jen the GM wrote:

Not to mention, wizards can be shut down by an antimagic field. Martial classes don't have an equivilant.

Maybe make a feat that lets them cast in an antimagic field?

If you compare the wizard to any martial class, they simply can't keep up with damage and they can't deal that high damage for a long period of time. Maybe give them the ability to select one spell per level as a cantrip?

I was just thinking that. Evocation spells like magic missile and fireball always do less damage than a two handed sword fighter, so I don't see the harm in letting them cast evocation for free.

Same thing with abjuration sense it is mostly just defensive or story line stuff like "dispel magic." I'd probably just let wizards do most abjuration spells for free as well.

[master arminas]

Jen the GM wrote:

Not to mention, wizards can be shut down by an antimagic field. Martial classes don't have an equivilant.

Maybe make a feat that lets them cast in an antimagic field?

If you compare the wizard to any martial class, they simply can't keep up with damage and they can't deal that high damage for a long period of time. Maybe give them the ability to select one spell per level as a cantrip?

Remind me, who can cast anti-magic field? Oh, yes, wizards. And other than the floating sphere of many eyes that cannot be named due to license restrictions, I don't know all that many creatures that have an anti-magic ability. And anti-magic field is an emanation centered on the caster. Hmmmm? As a wizard, am I going to shut down my own casting abilities to nullify magic around me and on me? That would be NO.

Master Arminas

[Moorluck]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Moorluck wrote:

Benicio Del Espada wrote:

I give them the medium BAB, too, and medium armor proficiency. Otherwise, they suck at combat, and can't hang with the martial classes when they're surrounded by enemies.

Their supposed to. Kinda like Fighters don't get a few spells so they don't suck at magic.

Well care to explain Cleric then Sir?

Casting + Armor?

Look at their spell list, and at how many Clerics use those slots. At most levels a Cleric's offensive magic is limited to say the least, where the Wiz starts blowing the crap out of his/her foes at 1st. A Wizard's place is a glass cannon, where as a Cleric is more of a combat healer. Hard to fill the combat part of that role if you can't get in combat range.

It's like trying to compare Fighter to Rogue in combat. Both are martial types, but have widely differing roles to fill.

[BlushingBard]

Brain In A Jar, thank you for explaining. You make a great point and I can see why you are right.

[GoblinWarmachine]

Jen the GM wrote:

Not to mention, wizards can be shut down by an antimagic field. Martial classes don't have an equivilant.

Maybe make a feat that lets them cast in an antimagic field?

If you compare the wizard to any martial class, they simply can't keep up with damage and they can't deal that high damage for a long period of time. Maybe give them the ability to select one spell per level as a cantrip?

Maybe we have it backwards, maybe making a combat feat like the barbarians spell sunder for all classes?

[cranewings]

Studpuffin wrote:

Anti-Magic Field? Hehehe

Reverse Gravity shuts down any Martial Class.

I get scrolls of anti-magic field for my ranger. He just floats up above whatever cover you have and pumps you full of arrows. If you get too close to him, you get caught in the field and he pumps you full of arrows.

[What's that smell?!]

Something stinks here...