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Ok, so Prehensile hair says:
The description of secondary attacks says:
Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
Here's the part that seems contradictory:
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
By definition, the hair should operate at Base attack -5 because it is a secondary attack. However, the witch only has one natural attack, the hair. So does that mean prehensile hair is a secondary attack, but you get to use your full base attack instead of base attack -5?
Thanks
Heh... it sure seems that way based on this. Plus 1.5 times your int bonus. Woohoo!
Benchak, the "specific" only identifies prehensile hair as a secondary natural attack. That means that the secondary natural attack rules should apply. And that specifically says if there is one natural attack it works that way.
Where is "secondary natural attack" itself defined as always being at a -5?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Heh... it sure seems that way based on this. Plus 1.5 times your int bonus. Woohoo!
Benchak, the "specific" only identifies prehensile hair as a secondary natural attack. That means that the secondary natural attack rules should apply. And that specifically says if there is one natural attack it works that way.
Where is "secondary natural attack" itself defined as always being at a -5?
Ah, sorry, didn't read the whole question. I hadn't realized that the "only has a single attack' clause didn't actually modify the type of the natural attack.
By RAW you guys might be right, but my gut is telling me the intent of prehensile hair was to be a weak attack (-5, 1/2 damage). Might be worth FAQing.
Benchak, you're probably right, but frankly even as a full BAB attack, it's still just a d3 damage, so I wouldn't consider it overpowered and would probably allow it in my games. Most witches aren't going to be in melee enough for this to matter anyway.
Benchak, you're probably right, but frankly even as a full BAB attack, it's still just a d3 damage, so I wouldn't consider it overpowered and would probably allow it in my games. Most witches aren't going to be in melee enough for this to matter anyway.
I agree, though I don't really care much about the damage. I was thinking of using it to deliver touch spells with a Winter Witch. No good?
Hmm... my witch is a gravewalker so gets to do touch attacks as ranged touch attacks with his poppet, so I didn't think about that angle, but it's worth thinking about... Ten foot reach, full BAB on touch spells...
Can a witch use prehensile hair to deliver touch spell attacks? Is it spelled out explicitly anywhere?
Well with some BAB and Int mod of +4, you get around +0 on ab to touch creeps, I am unsure if it counts as ranged attack but I belive it doesn't since its a Limb.
Tried to grapple few times with it, 1 player said its awsome, altho grapple failed next turn.
That's if you are interpreting it as a -5 attack. The RAW seems to read otherwise unless your witch has another natural attack. If your witch's hair is their ONLY natural attack, the wording of "secondary natural attack" seems clear that you attack with your full BAB and 1.5x your str bonus. Since prehensile hair says you substitute your int bonus for str bonus in attacks using the hair, that means you attack with your full BAB and 1.5x your int bonus.
For my second level witch that would mean a 10' reach +6 attack with d3+7 damage. (witch has a 20 int).
That's not too shabby for a second level supporting character. I'll have to check with my GM about it.
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Well with some BAB and Int mod of +4, you get around +0 on ab to touch creeps, I am unsure if it counts as ranged attack but I belive it doesn't since its a Limb.
Tried to grapple few times with it, 1 player said its awsome, altho grapple failed next turn.
That's if you are interpreting it as a -5 attack. The RAW seems to read otherwise unless your witch has another natural attack. If your witch's hair is their ONLY natural attack, the wording of "secondary natural attack" seems clear that you attack with your full BAB and 1.5x your str bonus. Since prehensile hair says you substitute your int bonus for str bonus in attacks using the hair, that means you attack with your full BAB and 1.5x your int bonus.
For my second level witch that would mean a 10' reach +6 attack with d3+7 damage. (witch has a 20 int).
That's not too shabby for a second level supporting character. I'll have to check with my GM about it.
You are probably correct, my bad there, thx on info I am still new and there are tons of stuff to remember.
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You are probably correct, my bad there, thx on info I am still new and there are tons of stuff to remember.
Malag, no, don't take this wrong. I'm not rebutting you. In fact I think the average PF player/GM agrees with your take on prehensile hair. I'm just agreeing with the OP that the RAW (Rules as Written) seem to say that prehensile hair on a witch with no other natural attack is, by rule, treated as full BAB and with 1.5x int bonus to damage.
This does need some developer to weigh in on. It's not clear what the RAI (Rules as Intended) was meant to be. Perhaps the designers meant for prehensile hair to be at -5 instead of at full BAB. There is a potential rules inconsistency here that currently calls for a GM ruling.
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You are probably correct, my bad there, thx on info I am still new and there are tons of stuff to remember.Malag, no, don't take this wrong. I'm not rebutting you. In fact I think the average PF player/GM agrees with your take on prehensile hair. I'm just agreeing with the OP that the RAW (Rules as Written) seem to say that prehensile hair on a witch with no other natural attack is, by rule, treated as full BAB and with 1.5x int bonus to damage.
This does need some developer to weigh in on. It's not clear what the RAI (Rules as Intended) was meant to be. Perhaps the designers meant for prehensile hair to be at -5 instead of at full BAB. There is a potential rules inconsistency here that currently calls for a GM ruling.
I think it's quite likely that the hex was created with the consideration that it might well be used to provide an extra attack for a gish style melee caster (like a Magus Hexcrafter). With such a character, calling it out as a secondary attack would be important to let players know how it would interact with their manufactured weapon attacks.
So I believe that if the only attack being made for the round is using the Prehensile Hair it should be made at full BAB with 1.5x Int bonus to damage. If it's being mixed with other attacks then it comes in at BAB-5 with only 1/2x Int bonus to damage.
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@Adamantine Dragon
I see your point but nevertheless, you said it yourself, Prehensile Hair AS AN ATTACK gets -5 which makes sense, but grapple is combat maneuver therefore its not a standard attack?
In general, Prehensile Hair would need some clarification. It's one of most confusing hexes I used so far, not to mention it takes standard action to activate it only. If it doesn't get -5 penalty , if done as 1 primary touch attack, it would simply be too usefull and what I figured so far that hexes aren't that usefull.
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@Adamantine Dragon
I see your point but nevertheless, you said it yourself, Prehensile Hair AS AN ATTACK gets -5 which makes sense, but grapple is combat maneuver therefore its not a standard attack?In general, Prehensile Hair would need some clarification. It's one of most confusing hexes I used so far, not to mention it takes standard action to activate it only. If it doesn't get -5 penalty , if done as 1 primary touch attack, it would simply be too usefull and what I figured so far that hexes aren't that usefull.
So you do need to use a standard action to activate it? I assumed that you could just use it whenever you want, and when you do it starts with the duration.
And hexes can be really good. Evil Eye is great at low levels. And the Fortune/Cackle combo can give your fighters a rerolled attack EVERY TURN.
The entry in the bestiary for Secondary Attacks indicates that if the creature has no other means of attacking than something that is listed as a secondary attack, then it becomes a primary attack. What's probably key is the phrase "If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type."
The Witch in question has another means of attacking- an unarmed strike. She technically has more than one type of attack (even if it can't be made that round) and so the secondary attack remains secondary. A horse with a bite attack listed (such as the Druid's animal companion) can't treat its hooves as a primary attack simply by wearing a muzzle to prevent its bite attack.
The entry in the bestiary for Secondary Attacks indicates that if the creature has no other means of attacking than something that is listed as a secondary attack, then it becomes a primary attack. What's probably key is the phrase "If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type."
The Witch in question has another means of attacking- an unarmed strike. She technically has more than one type of attack (even if it can't be made that round) and so the secondary attack remains secondary. A horse with a bite attack listed (such as the Druid's animal companion) can't treat its hooves as a primary attack simply by wearing a muzzle to prevent its bite attack.
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Is a non-proficient unarmed strike considered a natural attack? I was under the impression that unarmed strikes and natural attacks were two different things.
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You are probably correct, my bad there, thx on info I am still new and there are tons of stuff to remember.Malag, no, don't take this wrong. I'm not rebutting you. In fact I think the average PF player/GM agrees with your take on prehensile hair. I'm just agreeing with the OP that the RAW (Rules as Written) seem to say that prehensile hair on a witch with no other natural attack is, by rule, treated as full BAB and with 1.5x int bonus to damage.
This does need some developer to weigh in on. It's not clear what the RAI (Rules as Intended) was meant to be. Perhaps the designers meant for prehensile hair to be at -5 instead of at full BAB. There is a potential rules inconsistency here that currently calls for a GM ruling.
I think it's quite likely that the hex was created with the consideration that it might well be used to provide an extra attack for a gish style melee caster (like a Magus Hexcrafter). With such a character, calling it out as a secondary attack would be important to let players know how it would interact with their manufactured weapon attacks.
So I believe that if the only attack being made for the round is using the Prehensile Hair it should be made at full BAB with 1.5x Int bonus to damage. If it's being mixed with other attacks then it comes in at BAB-5 with only 1/2x Int bonus to damage.
And this is specifically why my Hexcrafter took it as his first Hex.
10' reach, full BaB +int bonus on hit 1.5x int on damage and can Spellstrike without needing to make a concentration check.It is a very potent combo when mixed with the right spells and combat maneuvers (use attacks that entangle or slow a creature so it can't take 5' steps and keep a chill touch/frostbite up and you become an AoO machine).
Throw Flight and/or Lunge in the mix and you can de-buff everyone into uselessness with just 1-2 spells a battle while still cranking out a massive amount of damage, D3 +1.5 int bonus (20-22 Int is easy at this level for 7-9 bonus damage) Plus a charge from your Chill Touch/Frost strike (1D6 +strength Damage or 1D6+level non-lethal +fatigued with no save).
Make every one of those AoO's a trip attempt (to fire off the touch attack too) and you have all kinds of battlefield control goodness.
I asked my GM to rule on this. I think RAW says PH is treated as a primary natural attack with full BAB and 1.5x int as the damage bonus.
I can see arguments on both sides. I don't think it is remotely overpowered with full BAB, and I don't think it cripples the witch at -5.
I would rule full BAB if it were me.
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I'll look for the link guys, but this was ruled on by devs a long time ago. If you have prehensile hair and no other natural attacks, it is 100% considered primary when you use it, and gets 1.5x your strength (intelligence) modifier to damage.
Found it: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz43wt?Prehensile-Hair-skill-use
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Make every one of those AoO's a trip attempt (to fire off the touch attack too) and you have all kinds of battlefield control goodness.You can do that? I was under the impression AoOs had to be normal attacks.
If not, Prehensile Hair just became EVEN BETTER.
It's better than you think, I have a 2nd level Witch with it who rules the battlefield because of proper leveraging of this fact.
Take Prehensile hair and Add Rime spell (metamagic) and Enforcer feat. Mix with Frostbite and lash out at with Trip attacks.
Every round you can cast Frost strike and replace the touch attack with a Trip attempt (which still triggers the Frostbite charge) forcing the target to suffer Fatigue (-2 Str & -2 Dex) AND entangled for a round (-2 attack & -4 Dex) AND shaken (-2 attacks, damage rolls, saves, skills & bility checks) AND con only move at half speed and cannot run or charge. All of this before he then (probably) gets the PRONE penalties (-4 to hit & -4 AC).
The spell effects are resolved before the Trip attempt (Though your GM may do them all at once), so his CMD to resist the trip is going to be down by 4 (-2 str & -6 Dex) making him an easy mark for your trip.
Then when he tries to get up or crawl away you punch him in the face with your beard (AoO) for 1D3 + 1D6 + Int Bonus*1.5=(6-9) + Level (2). I usually average 20 pts a round with this and rarely get touched (targets that get into melee range get a Slumber hex and a Coup de Grace from my Monkey familiar and his icepick (light pick x4 crit multiplier).
Eventually we'll throw in a level of Alchemist (Vivsectionist) to add sneak attack damage and Cognatagen bonuses onto it too for all kinds of painful hair pulling onto it.
I.LOVE.THIS.HEX.
Make every one of those AoO's a trip attempt (to fire off the touch attack too) and you have all kinds of battlefield control goodness.You can do that? I was under the impression AoOs had to be normal attacks.
If not, Prehensile Hair just became EVEN BETTER.
It's better than you think, I have a 2nd level Witch with it who rules the battlefield because of proper leveraging of this fact.
Take Prehensile hair and Add Rime spell (metamagic) and Enforcer feat. Mix with Frostbite and lash out at with Trip attacks.
Every round you can cast Frost strike and replace the touch attack with a Trip attempt (which still triggers the Frostbite charge) forcing the target to suffer Fatigue (-2 Str & -2 Dex) AND entangled for a round (-2 attack & -4 Dex) AND shaken (-2 attacks, damage rolls, saves, skills & bility checks) AND con only move at half speed and cannot run or charge. All of this before he then (probably) gets the PRONE penalties (-4 to hit & -4 AC).
The spell effects are resolved before the Trip attempt (Though your GM may do them all at once), so his CMD to resist the trip is going to be down by 4 (-2 str & -6 Dex) making him an easy mark for your trip.Then when he tries to get up or crawl away you punch him in the face with your beard (AoO) for 1D3 + 1D6 + Int Bonus*1.5=(6-9) + Level (2). I usually average 20 pts a round with this and rarely get touched (targets that get into melee range get a Slumber hex and a Coup de Grace from my Monkey familiar and his icepick (light pick x4 crit multiplier).
Eventually we'll throw in a level of Alchemist (Vivsectionist) to add sneak attack damage and Cognatagen bonuses onto it too for all kinds of painful hair pulling onto it.I.LOVE.THIS.HEX.
Wait, so say I'm level 5 and cast frostbite so I have 5 "charges". If I trip someone as an AoO it triggers a charge of Frostbite in addition to the trip effect?
And if I straight up attack with the hair, I deal damage AND trigger a Frostbite charge?
As a Winter Witch with Frozen Caress, you could deal 1d3+1d4+(Int*1.5) lethal plus 1d6+5 nonlethal plus fatigue. Nasty.
And one more question--If I have Rime Spell on Frostbite (and again, let's say 5 charges), does the one round of entangle trigger EVERY time I hit someone with the Frostbite attack? So with one first level spell (if I have magical lineage) I can keep smacking someone for damage and entangle them every round?
I am not challenging the below issues, I sincerely want to know so I can report back to my GM.
1. Where in the RAW does it say you can use prehensile hair to trip?
2. Where in the RAW does it say that you can use your int bonus in place of str bonus for your CMB?
3. At level two how are you casting a first level spell using a metamagic feat that requires casting the spell as one spell level higher? Where are you getting a second level spell slot?
4. How are you using "Enforcer" without using a weapon?
5. Are you factoring in the standard action you need to take to cast the touch attack spell so that you can hold it on your next round?
6. Using a held touch spell normally requires an normal attack, not a touch attack. If you are doing trips does that not matter since you are doing CMB vs CMD?
I am not challenging the below issues, I sincerely want to know so I can report back to my GM.
1. Where in the RAW does it say you can use prehensile hair to trip?
2. Where in the RAW does it say that you can use your int bonus in place of str bonus for your CMB?
3. At level two how are you casting a first level spell using a metamagic feat that requires casting the spell as one spell level higher? Where are you getting a second level spell slot?
4. How are you using "Enforcer" without using a weapon?
5. Are you factoring in the standard action you need to take to cast the touch attack spell so that you can hold it on your next round?
6. Using a held touch spell normally requires an normal attack, not a touch attack. If you are doing trips does that not matter since you are doing CMB vs CMD?
I will answer the ones I can:
1) Prehensile Hair says you can manipulate objects as though it were a limb and as dexterously as a hand. Since you can trip with a hand, you should be able to trip with the hair.
2) Prehensile Hair is a natural attack that uses your Int mod instead of your Str mod.
3) As I said, I'd use the Magical Lineage trait. This trait allows you to pick one spell that counts as one level fewer when adding metamagic feats. So if you take that trait for Frostbite, you can use a Rime Spell Frostbite as a level one spell (Level 1 Spell +1 Rime spell -1 for the trait = a level 1 spell).
4) The prehensile hair is a natural weapon. Frostbite is an attack that deals nonlethal damage. Enforcer requires a nonlethal attack from a weapon, I believe. A frostbite--prehensile hair attack might fit the criteria, depending on interpretation.
5) I believe in my initial question I said: "If I cast Frostbite and gain 5 'charges', etc etc." The good thing about Frostbite is that it gives you a number of "charges" equal to your level. That is why I asked my questions in my above post.
6) I'm not sure about this, which seems similar to what I was asking above.
I am not challenging the below issues, I sincerely want to know so I can report back to my GM.
1. Where in the RAW does it say you can use prehensile hair to trip?
2. Where in the RAW does it say that you can use your int bonus in place of str bonus for your CMB?
3. At level two how are you casting a first level spell using a metamagic feat that requires casting the spell as one spell level higher? Where are you getting a second level spell slot?
4. How are you using "Enforcer" without using a weapon?
5. Are you factoring in the standard action you need to take to cast the touch attack spell so that you can hold it on your next round?
6. Using a held touch spell normally requires an normal attack, not a touch attack. If you are doing trips does that not matter since you are doing CMB vs CMD?
I will answer the ones I can:
1) Prehensile Hair says you can manipulate objects as though it were a limb and as dexterously as a hand. Since you can trip with a hand, you should be able to trip with the hair.
2) Prehensile Hair is a natural attack that uses your Int mod instead of your Str mod.
3) As I said, I'd use the Magical Lineage trait. This trait allows you to pick one spell that counts as one level fewer when adding metamagic feats. So if you take that trait for Frostbite, you can use a Rime Spell Frostbite as a level one spell (Level 1 Spell +1 Rime spell -1 for the trait = a level 1 spell).
4) The prehensile hair is a natural weapon. Frostbite is an attack that deals nonlethal damage. Enforcer requires a nonlethal attack from a weapon, I believe. A frostbite--prehensile hair attack might fit the criteria, depending on interpretation.
5) I believe in my initial question I said: "If I cast Frostbite and gain 5 'charges', etc etc." The good thing about Frostbite is that it gives you a number of "charges" equal to your level. That is why I asked my questions in my above post.
6) I'm not sure about this, which seems similar to what I was...
1. Yeah, but it also says you can't wield a weapon with it, which you can do with a hand. Is there a specific ruling or errata on whether you can do CMB maneuvers with prehensile hair?
2. It uses you int mod on a natural attack. It doesn't explicitely state that you substitute your int bonus for your str bonus in your CMB.
3. Ah... that's an overpowered trait then. IMHO
4. Hmm.... usually I see the description as "natural attack" not "natural weapon." I'm not sure a natural attack or natural weapon qualifies as a weapon under RAW. In fact, in the entire core rulebook, the only place "natural weapon" appears at all is in the magic fang description. I would want a developer ruling on this.
5. I've wondered about frostbite and chill touch anyway, I think the spell description is vague. It says "instantaneous" for duration then says you can use it up to your level in attacks. How the heck does that work?
6. This actually ties back into 2 as well.
This is all really cool stuff, but I can promise you if I brought this to my GM he'd just laugh.
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...I am not challenging the below issues, I sincerely want to know so I can report back to my GM.
1. Where in the RAW does it say you can use prehensile hair to trip?
2. Where in the RAW does it say that you can use your int bonus in place of str bonus for your CMB?
3. At level two how are you casting a first level spell using a metamagic feat that requires casting the spell as one spell level higher? Where are you getting a second level spell slot?
4. How are you using "Enforcer" without using a weapon?
5. Are you factoring in the standard action you need to take to cast the touch attack spell so that you can hold it on your next round?
6. Using a held touch spell normally requires an normal attack, not a touch attack. If you are doing trips does that not matter since you are doing CMB vs CMD?
I will answer the ones I can:
1) Prehensile Hair says you can manipulate objects as though it were a limb and as dexterously as a hand. Since you can trip with a hand, you should be able to trip with the hair.
2) Prehensile Hair is a natural attack that uses your Int mod instead of your Str mod.
3) As I said, I'd use the Magical Lineage trait. This trait allows you to pick one spell that counts as one level fewer when adding metamagic feats. So if you take that trait for Frostbite, you can use a Rime Spell Frostbite as a level one spell (Level 1 Spell +1 Rime spell -1 for the trait = a level 1 spell).
4) The prehensile hair is a natural weapon. Frostbite is an attack that deals nonlethal damage. Enforcer requires a nonlethal attack from a weapon, I believe. A frostbite--prehensile hair attack might fit the criteria, depending on interpretation.
5) I believe in my initial question I said: "If I cast Frostbite and gain 5 'charges', etc etc." The good thing about Frostbite is that it gives you a number of "charges" equal to your level. That is why I asked my questions in my above post.
6) I'm not sure about this, which seems
Ok now lets address each of these questions and clear up your confusion.
1. Prehensile hair is specifically referred to as a secondary natural attack (meaning it falls under the natural attack rules). Now add to that the clarification from the combat maneuvers blog post here:
Combat Maneuver rulings
which specifically states "Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.".
Now since natural attacks == natural weapon (this you may argue with but we can definitely find places where the Devs have used the terms interchangeably), your Hair is a valid weapon for performing Combat Maneuvers.
2. Also see above blog post stating any bonuses applied to that weapon (your hair) also applies to that roll.
3. It's not really that OP, it only affects a single un-alterable spell and only gives you a -1 off the total. There are dozens of previous methods of reducing that modifier to metamagics. Great if you want to use the cheapest metamagic feats but significantly weaker than a 3K gp Rod.
4. The Devs have already ruled on this in multiple places and has been confirmed on this board that natural attacks (claws, Bite, Tentacles, etc) are considered weapons as far as the rules are concerned. See above Blog Post for one such ruling.
5. Duration=instantaneous is weird but usually only used to determine how this spell interacts with other effects that modify spells (like dispel magic, you can't dispel an instantaneous spell). Roughly it means the spell only lasts an instant but the effects last until used.
6.Page 199 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook says, “When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus.
By that statement any combat maneuver is a normal attack roll it just uses different modifiers.
@Adamantine DragonYour DM is welcome to laugh all he wants and rule against it but remind him that's a house rule and by RAW all of this is legal.
Extra Question:
And one more question--If I have Rime Spell on Frostbite (and again, let's say 5 charges), does the one round of entangle trigger EVERY time I hit someone with the Frostbite attack? So with one first level spell (if I have magical lineage) I can keep smacking someone for damage and entangle them every round?
Correct, when you metamagic a spell that effect lasts for as long as the spell is on-going.Caveat here though, touch spells also have a special rule on them:
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.
Roughly means if you just touch someone or they touch you it eats a charge. This is a great defense against grapplers and natural weapon users who try to attack you.
What about if I disarm someone? Is my hair holding the object? I can manipulate it as though it were a hand, right, and if you disarm someone with an unarmed attack you get to hold the weapon afterwards.
What about if I disarm someone? Is my hair holding the object? I can manipulate it as though it were a hand, right, and if you disarm someone with an unarmed attack you get to hold the weapon afterwards.
Well, even if you can hold it, you can't wield it. So I dunno... prehensile hair is starting to look like a seriously under-documented ability.
Well, even if you can hold it, you can't wield it. So I dunno... prehensile hair is starting to look like a seriously under-documented ability.What about if I disarm someone? Is my hair holding the object? I can manipulate it as though it were a hand, right, and if you disarm someone with an unarmed attack you get to hold the weapon afterwards.
Sure, I can't wield it. But I can hold it in my hand and whip you with my hair while your fighter stands there with no weapon. :-)