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I see you've decided to become a Paladin. Congratulations! It's a tough job, but the spiritual and moral rewards are immense. Being a Paladin isn't like being a Fighter. There are very strict rules to follow, and they can be confusing and seemingly restrictive a lot of the time. So, to help you out, I've written you this guide to the more confusing situations Paladins can run into, to help you make the tough decisions that every Paladin must face. For the sake of expediency, this guide does not cover the more obvious or easy to understand parts of how you must behave. It focuses solely on the parts that can be confusing, and should not be considered a complete guide towards Paladin behavior.
Law Versus Good
First off, Paladins are both Lawful people and Good people. This is the most important part of the Code of Conduct. This may not seem too bad, until you realize just how heavily the two sometimes conflict. When that happens, you are in a tough spot indeed. What to do when the two most important parts of who you are conflict with each other? It seems like you are trapped. Luckily for you, you aren't. Though Paladins don't rebel every time the law becomes inconvenient, following the Law does not mean standing aside and doing nothing in the face of injustice. When faced with an unjust law, vocal opposition is perfectly acceptable. Just because you are forced to follow a law doesn't mean you have to like it or pretend to like it, and there is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with a Paladin working to change an unjust law. You are perfectly justified in publicly condemning legal injustice, and in fact would be wrong not to do so.
Of course, this brings up the question of what to do if the law forbids you from expressing any opposition. In that case, it's time for a bit of civil disobedience. Now, you are at heart a Lawful person, but you are also a Good person, and Good people don't stand aside and watch injustice. When the law tolerates or encourages injustice, it is your duty as a Good person to act. You should not, however, resort to violence unless attacked with lethal force. Armed rebellion, though capable of toppling an oppressive government in the short term, causes great damage and suffering and leaves a fragile new government that is highly vulnerable to descending into tyranny or succumbing to outside invasion. To start an armed rebellion would not only go against your vows as a Paladin, it would be very likely to be counterproductive. Civil disobedience, however, is acceptable in this situation.
Civil disobedience is, by its very nature, a criminal activity. However, its also a necessary on in a situation where the law is unjust and you are legally forbidden from publicly opposing it. As for your Code of Conduct, a Paladin, though required to support the law, can, if absolutely necessary to the cause of Good, turn from it. You are, after all, Lawful Good and not Lawful Neutral. You must make this decision with the utmost care, and only do it when absolutely, positively necessary. Turning from the law should never, ever be done lightly, and only when you are absolutely sure that you cannot in good conscience follow it. When engaging in civil disobedience, do whatever it takes to be heard. Stage protests in public areas. Circulate underground newspapers. Challenge the corrupt government at every opportunity, but without resorting to violence. If you have access to any sort of political or judicial power, get the best out of it you can. If you are to be arrested, allow yourself to be arrested. That is part of civil disobedience, and resisting arrest will only spark violence. Remember that trials make excellent venues for protest. If you are to be executed, go to your death courageously and with dignity, and as a martyr to resistance everywhere.
Another question is what to do if a lawful authority orders you to commit an evil or unjust act. You should respectfully refuse. This ties into civil disobedience. You are a servant of law and order, but also of righteousness and justice. You may loathe to disobey the law, but when it is used to service the cause of evil and oppression you cannot participate. It goes against everything Paladins stand for to use the law in such a manner.
Law Versus Law
What about when two lawful authorities, such as nations, are in conflict? What shall a Paladin do in this situation? Well, it depends on what is going on. If neither nation seems to be serving the cause of Good, either try to bring a peaceful resolution to the conflict or maintain neutrality. Do not join in the fighting. Such a war is not one a Paladin should be fighting. If one nation is Evil and the other is not, join the war against the Evil nation and fight with everything you have. It is perfectly acceptable to war with Evil nations. If you are defeated, rebellion is, in this case, justified. This is because such a rebellion is not a revolt against lawful authority, it is a battle against those who would destroy lawful authority.
Warfare
Warfare is a dirty business. It involves actions that result in a great amount of death and destruction, often involving civilians. Due to its cost and horror, a Paladin should only fight in a war against Evil, and should either stay out of or attempt to end other wars. Furthermore, a Paladin should be very careful about what tactics she takes part in. Tactics that harm civilians as part of a valid military strategy, such as cutting supply lines or instigating sieges, are acceptable, but such actions that lack military utility, such as burning people's homes down for being citizens of an enemy nation, are not. Enemies that are surrendering or wounded should not be harmed, and should receive reasonable care and respect. Enemies that are retreating, however, may be attacked. It is impossible for me to list every possible moral difficulty you may come across during a war. This is one situations where things depend heavily on the circumstances. War is a very brutal thing, and unfortunate actions may be required for victory. This is not blanked permission to act brutally all the time, it is a sad fact that you will have to accept while keeping the brutality to an absolute minimum.
Captives and Punishment
When an enemy surrenders to you, you should accept this surrender. Ideally, it is best to take your captive to the nearest lawful authority so that judgment may be passed and punishment administered, but if for whatever reason this is not an option you may pass judgment yourself. If the legitimate authority is corrupt or evil, passing judgment yourself is often better than turning someone over to be tortured and subjected to an unfair trail and excessive punishment. This is a very serious matter, and you must be as fair and unbiased in your decision as possible. An execution is only acceptable in response to truly heinous crimes such as rape, torture, and murder, and if you decide that the death penalty is justified it should be applied swiftly. Deliberately prolonging an execution to make the condemned suffer is vengeance, and a Paladin should never act out of vengeance. Whatever punishment you choose to administer, it should not involve torture or mutilation, and should fit the crime or crimes in question if possible. A captive should always be treated with care and respect, and never, ever abused.
Redemption
People can change. Even Evil people. Redemption is a wonderful thing, but only if it comes from the heart and not an external threat. You can't just shove a sword in somebody's face and expect it to make them Good. This does not mean that you need attempt to redeem everyone you capture, as it is very often futile to try, but if you think you have a chance of success, it is worth trying. The best way to go about this differs wildly based on the individual's personality, so I cannot give much advice beyond recommending a great deal of patience. Redemption takes a lot of time and effort, and the individual has to want it.
Mind Effecting Magic
Compulsion magic robs an individual of free will. This isn't necessarily an Evil act, but it can very quickly become on if one isn't careful. Once such magic has been used, the person effected should be treated as if a helpless captive.
Sexual Relationships
Sexual behavior is not inherently wrong. Unless you have taken a vow of chastity, and the vast majority of Paladins have not, it is permissible for you to have sexual relationships. However, a Paladin should take care. As a Paladin, you should never conceal what you want out of the encounter. If you just want one night with someone before moving on and likely never seeing them again, say so up front before doing anything with them. If you are looking for a long term relationship and not a one night stand, that person needs to know this. You should never take part in any sort of exploitative or abusive sexual relationship, such as one with a prisoner, someone who feels unable to refuse you, or a child. Sex or marriage should never, ever be used as a form of punishment. I'm sure it is unnecessary to specify this, but a Paladin should never commit rape or allow others to do so. Prostitution is a slightly more complicated matter, and depends on the circumstances. Forcing someone into prostitution is morally reprehensible, and a Paladin should not have relations with such an individual. The same goes for underage prostitutes. However, if one was not forced into prostitution, it is not necessarily a violation of your oaths to engage in relations with the individual, though a great many Paladins would never wish to do this. Whether you would is up to you. Premarital sex, interracial sex, interspecies sex, and homosexuality are not addressed by the code of conduct, and are not Evil. Individuals Paladins may be either in favor of or against these things, depending on the individual, though a Paladin will always be respectful in opposing them, never violent or cruel.
Hopefully these tips will allow you to face difficult moral judgments in a manner worthy of a Paladin. I wish you luck in all your future endeavors, and hope that you will be a credit to everything we stand for.
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Sounds like a good general guide. Just two points - I don't think Paladins would truly think of purely evil Nations, just evil Governments. And as far as formatting and grammar goes, please, there is a difference between it's (contraction for it is) and its (gender-neutral possessive).
But those are just a few minor quibbles.
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TL;DNR
As a goblin paladin, I feel that it is important that you never stick too close to the rules as laid down in some dusty old tome or, as in this case, posted on the internet. Feel that? In the air? Take a deep breath. You smell that? That's the LG-ness all around us. Just be at one with the Lawful Gee and everything will be okay, man.
Also, if you never read the rules, then you can always say "Well, I didn't know I couldn't do that." Sure, you might lose some of your powers for a while until you successfully complete some epic quest, but at least you'll be able to get them back.
Doodlebug Anklebiter, Goblin Paladin: Always ready to atone.
Sounds like a good general guide. Just two points - I don't think Paladins would truly think of purely evil Nations, just evil Governments. And as far as formatting and grammar goes, please, there is a difference between it's (contraction for it is) and its (gender-neutral possessive).
But those are just a few minor quibbles.
Thanks for the opinions. I'll fix the grammar.
When I used the term nation, I meant it in terms of the ruling individuals.
TL;DNR
As a goblin paladin, I feel that it is important that you never stick too close to the rules as laid down in some dusty old tome or, as in this case, posted on the internet. Feel that? In the air? Take a deep breath. You smell that? That's the LG-ness all around us. Just be at one with the Lawful Gee and everything will be okay, man.
Also, if you never read the rules, then you can always say "Well, I didn't know I couldn't do that." Sure, you might lose some of your powers for a while until you successfully complete some epic quest, but at least you'll be able to get them back.
Doodlebug Anklebiter, Goblin Paladin: Always ready to atone.
Ah, but some of us like rules. It's what makes us Paladins.
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Hmmm. A heart full of love, an arm as strong as iron, a wang the size of a child's forearm, and a blessing from my patron deity are what make me a paladin.
But perhaps you pinkskins need rules, hmm?, like crutches, hmm?, to lean upon? Hmm? Hmm? Hmm?
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Very nice Kelsey, but are you ready to put your advice to the test? I have some scenarios in mind that, hopefully, do not lend themselves to a clear and easy course of action. I'll post them as soon as I get home from work. =)
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On behalf of ALL the other LG deities, my sisters MISHAKAL & IOMEDAE, and my brothers HEIRONEUS, TYR and LATHANDER, I have been chosen to dictate our Code of Conduct for Paladins, to end all ambiguities, questions, concerns and arguments.
This is the LAW:
1} Thall shall not be a dick to the other PCs. Many of you will be our arms and light on the Prime Material Plane, adventuring with PCs that aren't like you. Don't be a dick in your relationships with them. You will cause MORE problems than those you solve; in fact, you'll probably not solve any and create many.
2} Thall shall not be a dick to the DM and its campaign. Many of the DMs you will encounter will have slightly different views of Law and Good for its monsters and fiends and NPCs than you have. Be perceptive of those and do accordingly.
3} Remember Laws 1 and 2 and only then,... Thall shall be Lawful Good according to how YOU define Lawful and Good. Just don't be a dick.
These are the words of your LG GODS!
OBEY!
Oddly enough, this is actually also a very excellent guide for the way that people in the REAL WORLD should act.
Let's remove the game references and post a copy all over the internet :D
dotting. I will read it later.
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I have one big question for you. I never see this adressed, and it should be for the most part.
If you capture an Evil Demon who uses the Undead to kill the innocent for his master. After capture of said Demon, is it justified to Torture the Demon for information using the abilities that were given to the Paladin? Would it be okay to give the Demon Mercy and kill it afterwards?
@Doodleburg Anklebiter: It sounds like you don't need a crutch with the description of yourself. :)
@ Tirq,
It depends on A) What the DM's definition of "A Demon" is -- whether a Demon is an incarnation of EVIL and cannot be redeemed or if it has any ability to turn to the good side of the force (angels can fall; maybe demons can rise...) and B} What the Player's definitions of Lawful and Good are -- whether the act of torture is ever permissable depending on the situation.
Once you have those two answers in any given situation you'll have the correct answer to your hypothetical.
(Also, anything W E Ray says is absolute Law and Good!)
Do you allow party members to CdG people? Do you have to stabilize them, even if they attacked you and are agents of evil? what if you are not near a town, do you have to have a train of prisoners behind you or take the chance that the second they regain consciousness they will just start hunting you all over again?
You are Pally McPaladin, shining beacon of virtue and justice; a paragon for all Paladinhood. Your deeds set an example for all fellow paladins to emulate and follow.
Scenario #1
While walking down the street one night you overhear a commotion. Going to investigate you see two individuals in a street brawl; one of them is much larger and stronger looking than the other, and clearly has the upper hand. There are a group of onlookers gathered around watching the fight. You hustle over to break it up, but by the time you get the two combatants separated it's too late - the little guy has died from his injuries. Both brawlers reek of alcohol.
The onlookers all seem to be in agreement that the little guy instigated the fight and the big guy tried to walk away at first, but eventually lost his temper and let the the little guy have it. The authorities have not been contacted yet because as a policy they stay out breaking up drunken brawls. It's likely given the circumstances that if the authorities are brought in the big guy will be charged and probably found guilty of manslaughter at the very least, if not murder - and the punishment for either crime is death. The attitude among the crowd idicates that the big guy is pretty well liked in town and the little guy disliked, although there seems to be a general sense that nobody is happy that someone died because of a pointless fight. Concerned that the big guy is going to be executed if the authorities are brought in, some onlookers plead for his fate while others are think otherwise.
What do you do?
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Tirq: My gut is "no". "Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings."
Torture shows no respect for it's life, sanity, or dignity. On the flip side... "Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others..."
I find it hard to think someone with any amount of compassion for others could actively torture somebody without qualms.
1} Thall shall not be a dick to the other PCs. Many of you will be our arms and light on the Prime Material Plane, adventuring with PCs that aren't like you. Don't be a dick in your relationships with them. You will cause MORE problems than those you solve; in fact, you'll probably not solve any and create many.
2} Thall shall not be a dick to the DM and its campaign. Many of the DMs you will encounter will have slightly different views of Law and Good for its monsters and fiends and NPCs than you have. Be perceptive of those and do accordingly.
While true, the PCs and DM need to realize there are lines for them too. If a Paladin is an established member of the group, and you want to bring in a evil character, don't be surprised if your constant evil acts irritate the Paladin to the point of not wanting to play his character anymore (like what happened to me).
This is not me condoning Paladins "monitoring" and "controlling" other PCs, but when the group sits together and makes their character, if someone is wanting to be a Paladin (and clearly voices that), you should take note, and make a PC that can get along with such a character, and not make a CN Necromancer that focuses on raising the corpses of the dead you've killed to secretly steal for you at night.
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@ Red Army,
Agreed, of course, but this particular Alignment Thread is more for the perspective of How One Should Play a Pally, as opposed to the Threads for the perspective of How Gamers Play Evil PCs. For those Threads I say A} Thall shall not be a dick to the other PCs even though you're evil and B} Though shall not be a dick to the DM even though you're evil.
What I've been saying on the Boards for the last 6 or 7 years is that whenever you play a PC whose Alignment or personality background or whatever is considerably different than the others, you must include a reason and a way that you would be able to work with them -- even if it doesn't make lots of sense.
The example I've given a few times is this: About 3 years ago I played a Paladin of Mishakal in a game and another Player played a CE Drow Assassin. For that game I decided that Mishakal had told my Pally to show by example how and why Good is greater than Evil. My PC trusted that by doing the right thing/s his example would be seen by the Drow and eventually, long after the Campaign perhaps, the Drow would realize Good IS better than Evil and shift Alignments . . . . And my PC never said anything bad to or argued with the Drow PC; it all worked out.
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Tirq: My gut is "no". "Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings."
Torture shows no respect for it's life, sanity, or dignity. On the flip side... "Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others..."
I find it hard to think someone with any amount of compassion for others could actively torture somebody without qualms.
And yet you will notice that the Paladin has almost every weapon in his arsonal and destroys those that oppose what he says and does with Smite Evil. All these thing are ment for the destruction of sentient life.
The act of learning to use a sword is learning how to kill, no matter how sweet and just it sounds. How does someone have a respect for life and at the same time kills those who oppose him? Torture is "the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty." The key to this part is Punishment, where the Paladin should punish those who have done wrong so that they may learn from their mistakes and repent for them.
Once again, this is how the player should look at things, but this has nagged me ever since I wanted to play as a Paladin.
You are Pally McPaladin, shining beacon of virtue and justice; a paragon for all Paladinhood. Your deeds set an example for all fellow paladins to emulate and follow.
Scenario #1
While walking down the street one night you overhear a commotion. Going to investigate you see two individuals in a street brawl; one of them is much larger and stronger looking than the other, and clearly has the upper hand. There are a group of onlookers gathered around watching the fight. You hustle over to break it up, but by the time you get the two combatants separated it's too late - the little guy has died from his injuries. Both brawlers reek of alcohol.
The onlookers all seem to be in agreement that the little guy instigated the fight and the big guy tried to walk away at first, but eventually lost his temper and let the the little guy have it. The authorities have not been contacted yet because as a policy they stay out breaking up drunken brawls. It's likely given the circumstances that if the authorities are brought in the big guy will be charged and probably found guilty of manslaughter at the very least, if not murder - and the punishment for either crime is death. The attitude among the crowd idicates that the big guy is pretty well liked in town and the little guy disliked, although there seems to be a general sense that nobody is happy that someone died because of a pointless fight. Concerned that the big guy is going to be executed if the authorities are brought in, some onlookers plead for his fate while others are think otherwise.
What do you do?
I'll bite. It somewhat depends on the situation - is the victor of the fight repentant and sad for what has happened? Do I have some measure of influence (IE, have gained at least some fame for my deeds)? Do I know anyone in town? These all affect my actions.
Action A: If I have some influence for being well known, and the big guy is sorry for his actions, I will offer to him the possibility of turning himself in (should be a plus with the authorities, as in real life), explaining the circumstances (which, while still a capital punishment crime, are at least understandable, with witnesses as proof), and using my own influence (and/or relationship with the chancellor or captain of the guard, or whoever decides such things) to say that I think he is repentant, and would be better served staying alive and continuing to help the populace with community service, aiding a good-aligned temple in the area (his choice), and giving charity when and where he can (another good reason to keep him alive - he pays taxes, too).
Action B: If he is not in the least bit repentant, I will try to explain to him the seriousness of his actions and emphasize that, while he was in the wrong, the man was a human being, regardless of his drunkenness and status in town. If he expresses no repentance, I will say that I'm bringing him to the authorities (in the most non-lethal way possible, hopefully through co-operation), and will suggest that he only serve a sentence of jail time and hard labor rather than death (using the methods available to me, as above).
Action C: If I have no influence, and he is repentant, and I am reasonably certain he will be put to death, I will offer him the chance to travel with me, contributing with good deeds as I travel, when and where I see fit (this is dangerously close to a follower, but a level 1 commoner cannot be that useful). Alternatively, if I have a solid way to ensure his commitment (such as a good ally in a particular town), I will offer to pay his way to leave and meet up with my ally, who will then place him in appropriate situations where he can "show" his repentance (working for good, as explained before).
Of course there a million other situations, but I cannot explain them all here. Suffice to say Law and Good sometimes conflict, at which point you have to decide which is more important do the clearly written and not clearly evil laws of the land take precedence, or does the evil of executing of a man who wishes to repent become more important? In this situation, it's a choice one has to make.
And as long as he is acting somewhat lawfully and somewhat good (since you cannot perfectly be both all the time), no Paladin should lose his abilities like some GMs suggest - a good GM does not put his Paladin in a purposely "lose-lose" situation only to take away his abilities no matter what he chooses. While difficult moral decisions are fine (and incredibly interesting), do not automatically take away your PC's abilities merely because he is a Paladin. Would you take away a Druid's ability because he does not kill every lumberjack he meets in the world (or at least stop them from cutting down trees for the rest of their natural lives)?
Paladins, like other characters are allowed to be human. You can have a mean streak, and side with the lawful penalties for crimes, even if it's an accident (like here), regardless of punishment. You can ignore laws that are incredibly inconvenient if a particular government's laws piss you off (only occasionally, though). While most of us are lawful in real life, we all sometimes speed. Even extremely wealthy and charitable people keep enough to make themselves and their families happy.
Being lawful doesn't mean following every law all the time, and being good doesn't mean giving away every last gold piece you ever acquire.
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Can we get a letter to parties with a paladin in them next?
"Don't be a a!$#~#! toward the paladin simply because (s)he is a paladin." [/letter]
EDIT: I should extend this to GMs of paladins as well.
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@ Tirq,
Remember this is a game, not real life.
Our real life ethics don't necessarily apply. But even if they did -- or when they occassionally do -- how many of us are trained enough in Ethics to recognize the various ethical arguments and what they imply? Most people only can say what they feel is good and bad, or even worse, what they've been taught (implying they have no ability or perhaps motivation to question).
It's kinda like physics in spells -- it doesn't matter at all what the laws of phisics say a Grease spell would do -- it only matters what the spell description says and in the grey areas, that it's a 1st level spell and not a 3rd or whatever level spell. How many physicists are playing D&D anyway?
One gamer says the act of learning how to swing his sword is whatever -- that's good for him. Another gamer disagrees. And that don't matter!
The DM gets to define the Alignments of the NPCs and how right and wrong works and what good and bad is. The Players get to define Alignment for their individual PCs.
And yet you will notice that the Paladin has almost every weapon in his arsonal and destroys those that oppose what he says and does with Smite Evil. All these thing are ment for the destruction of sentient life.
The act of learning to use a sword is learning how to kill, no matter how sweet and just it sounds. How does someone have a respect for life and at the same time kills those who oppose him? Torture is "the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty." The key to this part is Punishment, where the Paladin should punish those who have done wrong so that they may learn from their mistakes and repent for them.
Once again, this is how the player should look at things, but this has nagged me ever since I wanted to play as a Paladin.
You make a fine point, but I would argue that a Paladin (at least times where he thinks it can succeed), should offer surrender to others who would oppose him.
Demons and Devils and the like are born into evil - evil is a part of their actual being, and as a far as I am aware (I may be wrong), most worlds do not allow a way for these creatures to repent (like most undead, too). As for torture, I would note that "punishment" is one part of a list of many reasons why one would do it. While some PCs may opt to painfully draw out a man's death, I would not with most of my own. A Paladin may be able to do so without risking his code (I don't think so), and that's a matter for the player and his DM.
A Paladin is what you make of it. If you see the Paladin as a weapon whose job is it to merely kill evil without mercy, it's easy to see some conflict. A Paladin, to me, is much more.
A Paladin is one who inspires others to devote themselves to something beyond themselves - to a God, to compassion, to aiding others in peril. A Paladin inspires those who are in the depths of despair, one who drops a bucket into the well of hopelessness and brings those within to the light of day. A Paladin converts those who are willing to open their hearts to good, who stops those who will give up on their wicked ways once beating, and who is willing, when absolutely necessary, to kill those beings who cannot be imprisoned, demoralized, or bound through any other means.
Just one man's opinion.
Paladins of Torag disagree:
Against my people's enemies I will show no mercy. I will
not allow their surrender, except to extract information.
I will defeat them, and I will scatter their families. Yet
even in the struggle against our enemies, I will act in a
way that brings honor to Torag.
Personally, I approve of their general outlook. :)
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Remember this is a game, not real life.
I personally don't like the idea of torture, but as you have said, it is a game. My character might think it is necessary. My GM might say that unless I give a good reason for doing it, I would have to atone.
A Paladin is one who inspires others to devote themselves to something beyond themselves - to a God, to compassion, to aiding others in peril. A Paladin inspires those who are in the depths of despair, one who drops a bucket into the well of hopelessness and brings those within to the light of day. A Paladin converts those who are willing to open their hearts to good, who stops those who will give up on their wicked ways once beating, and who is willing, when absolutely necessary, to kill those beings who cannot be imprisoned, demoralized, or bound through any other means.Just one man's opinion.
I love your opinion. You rock man.
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One other thing I forgot: A true hero does not seek recognition for his deeds. Though willing to accept any that is given graciously, he should not actively seek benefits through the acts of good.
Words of wisdom from the brilliant Sheldon Cooper of The Big Bang Theory. What a great show!
Do you allow party members to CdG people? Do you have to stabilize them, even if they attacked you and are agents of evil? what if you are not near a town, do you have to have a train of prisoners behind you or take the chance that the second they regain consciousness they will just start hunting you all over again?
No, you don't have to stabilize them. A CdG is a bit callous, but against a dying evildoer I wouldn't call it wrong to do.
As for prisoners, it'd be ideal to take them back to a town, but if that isn't feasible it is permissible to render judgment on the spot. If you can guard that train of prisoners, go ahead and take them back to town, but if not, judge them and mete out punishment where they are.
I have one big question for you. I never see this adressed, and it should be for the most part.
If you capture an Evil Demon who uses the Undead to kill the innocent for his master. After capture of said Demon, is it justified to Torture the Demon for information using the abilities that were given to the Paladin? Would it be okay to give the Demon Mercy and kill it afterwards?
@Doodleburg Anklebiter: It sounds like you don't need a crutch with the description of yourself. :)
A Paladin would not use torture, and if the Paladin did it probably wouldn't work. I can't really see a demon giving up anything useful. Killing the demon would be permissible, as it is inherently Evil.
You are Pally McPaladin, shining beacon of virtue and justice; a paragon for all Paladinhood. Your deeds set an example for all fellow paladins to emulate and follow.
Scenario #1
While walking down the street one night you overhear a commotion. Going to investigate you see two individuals in a street brawl; one of them is much larger and stronger looking than the other, and clearly has the upper hand. There are a group of onlookers gathered around watching the fight. You hustle over to break it up, but by the time you get the two combatants separated it's too late - the little guy has died from his injuries. Both brawlers reek of alcohol.
The onlookers all seem to be in agreement that the little guy instigated the fight and the big guy tried to walk away at first, but eventually lost his temper and let the the little guy have it. The authorities have not been contacted yet because as a policy they stay out breaking up drunken brawls. It's likely given the circumstances that if the authorities are brought in the big guy will be charged and probably found guilty of manslaughter at the very least, if not murder - and the punishment for either crime is death. The attitude among the crowd idicates that the big guy is pretty well liked in town and the little guy disliked, although there seems to be a general sense that nobody is happy that someone died because of a pointless fight. Concerned that the big guy is going to be executed if the authorities are brought in, some onlookers plead for his fate while others are think otherwise.
What do you do?
Wait for the guards, tell what I saw, and speak out at trial in favor of a sentence other than death. He also probably has a strong self-defense or mitigated circumstances case, and I should bring this up. Somebody was killed, and the local law needs to deal with it.
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A Paladin is one who inspires others to ...
If by "others" you mean NPCs I agree that many if not most Players play their Paladins with that in mind.
Though certainly one doesn't have to play a Pally like that or even necessarily agree with you.
If, however, you mean PCs when you say "others" I completely disagree. If I make a CN Rogue as the PC I wanna have fun with and play for a few hours of my precious downtime each week then OH HELL NO you don't get to impinge on that with your PC.
A true hero does not seek recognition for his deeds.
Again, absolutely okay for a Player to say this of his PC beliefs (whether a Pally or not -- whether LG or not). But absolutely not okay for a Player to force this value on the other Players.
Remember -- it's a game, not real life.
The game and everyone's fun is more important than ANY one Player's character concept or ideal.
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You are Pally McPaladin, shining beacon of virtue and justice; a paragon for all Paladinhood. Your deeds set an example for all fellow paladins to emulate and follow.
Scenario #1
While walking down the street one night you overhear a commotion. Going to investigate you see two individuals in a street brawl; one of them is much larger and stronger looking than the other, and clearly has the upper hand. There are a group of onlookers gathered around watching the fight. You hustle over to break it up, but by the time you get the two combatants separated it's too late - the little guy has died from his injuries. Both brawlers reek of alcohol.
The onlookers all seem to be in agreement that the little guy instigated the fight and the big guy tried to walk away at first, but eventually lost his temper and let the the little guy have it. The authorities have not been contacted yet because as a policy they stay out breaking up drunken brawls. It's likely given the circumstances that if the authorities are brought in the big guy will be charged and probably found guilty of manslaughter at the very least, if not murder - and the punishment for either crime is death. The attitude among the crowd idicates that the big guy is pretty well liked in town and the little guy disliked, although there seems to be a general sense that nobody is happy that someone died because of a pointless fight. Concerned that the big guy is going to be executed if the authorities are brought in, some onlookers plead for his fate while others are think otherwise.
What do you do?
This guy just murdered another guy. Regardless of the instigation, he has still committed a crime, and must face the consequences. I might ask the courts to be lenient, but he CHOSE to be drunk, and he CHOSE to retaliate. Acting instinctively /= acting righteously.
A Paladin is one who inspires others to ...If by "others" you mean NPCs I agree that many if not most Players play their Paladins with that in mind.
Though certainly one doesn't have to play a Pally like that or even necessarily agree with you.
If, however, you mean PCs when you say "others" I completely disagree. If I make a CN Rogue as the PC I wanna have fun with and play for a few hours of my precious downtime each week then OH HELL NO you don't get to impinge on that with your PC.
A true hero does not seek recognition for his deeds.Again, absolutely okay for a Player to say this of his PC beliefs (whether a Pally or not -- whether LG or not). But absolutely not okay for a Player to force this value on the other Players.
Remember -- it's a game, not real life.
The game and everyone's fun is more important than ANY one Player's character concept or ideal.
(Clears throat)
This is not me condoning Paladins "monitoring" and "controlling" other PCs, but when the group sits together and makes their character, if someone is wanting to be a Paladin (and clearly voices that), you should take note, and make a PC that can get along with such a character, and not make a CN Necromancer that focuses on raising the corpses of the dead you've killed to secretly steal for you at night.
(Points to the name of the quote, followed by the quote)
In this thread, mind.
...Just realized this post is kinda mean. Sorry.
Although I don't specifically mention a party situation in game, you can follow the logic of that statement to my intended conclusion - The Paladin can't rule the party, but the party can't ignore the Paladin either.
The Paladin can still "talk the talk" to the other PCs all he wants. I think that makes interesting and fun role-playing. A PC does something, and the Paladin says a kinda self-righteous quote, then walks off, and the PC says to the party "He sure is useful in a fight, but man does his righteousness get on my nerves". Role-playing!
Paladins harassing my characters is how I get inspiration to tempt them to fall. I feel that if he's trying to change my alignment then by the gods I should be allowed to try to change his.
Paladins harassing my characters is how I get inspiration to tempt them to fall. I feel that if he's trying to change my alignment then by the gods I should be allowed to try to change his.
This is why you have to be careful which parties you bring Paladins to. I agree with TheRedArmy. The Paladin shouldn't browbeat everyone else, but everyone else shouldn't ignore the Paladin.
It's also why I'm not opposed to pulling law from the code and just having Good.
Paladins harassing my characters is how I get inspiration to tempt them to fall. I feel that if he's trying to change my alignment then by the gods I should be allowed to try to change his.
Smart Paladins will also realize that annoyance does not lead to conversion. You have to pick your moments, and say profound proverbs that have significance to what is happening right now.
(Well except for Kelsey who wants to get rid of "Lawful" -- but no one ever likes the OP, so...)
They'd cause a lot less fights if it were pulled from the code.
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Trig, Thou shalt not capture a Demon, For a demon is a creature of Chaos and Evil. That is what your Patron Diety granted you the power of Smite Evil for. Smite the Demon drive back to the Abyss or Kill it Capture is right out for you cannot trust a being of Chaos and Evil to
uphold its given word in surender.
Toture is right ot wether Demon, Devil, Deamon or other intelligent beings it is aginist our code of conduct and will case our fall from grace. If someone needs to be totured summon the Inquistor, that is his function and his god grants him speical dispensation that he or she does not grant you. Though I warn you keeep a close eye on the Inquisitor for he may stray from his path and then you must call him out and make him repent of his wrong doing.
Serve the cause of good if you fight in an army that is led by an uncouth lout [read Lawful Evil] do your best to redeem him bring him
to the cause of good or if that fails at least attempt to convince him
to not commit acts of evil. If this fails you always have the ability to leave his service. Those that fall out of waht is lawful serve them not. Smite those who are of chaos and evil and send them to their foul god.
Things to do, Protect the weak and not let the strong take undue advantage of them. Heal the injured and diseased for this is what your Master granted you thise powers for. Fight Evil where you find it for that is your function in life. Obey thise in your kingdoom that have higher station than you. Obey your echelastical betters and you shall be rewared by your god.
RedArmy Well the same thing applies both ways. You don't get a paladin to fall by poking at him constantly only when its important otherwise it loses impact well that and eventually he's going to come to expect it and thereby be on guard.
I don't have any problems playing with paladins. I have problems playing with people who take every opportunity to preach to the unenlightened whether it be that damned smug monk, the wicked thief that thinks that we're all wicked at heart, or the paladin that just can't bite back the chance to spread a little gospel on ears he knows are at best deaf. Its just that people that run paladins tend to be the most grievous of offenders.
I couldn't really see pulling the Law from the class though. As soon as you do functionally they cease to be imo paladins. One of the main cores of the class is doing what is right by law, honor, and by their chosen god.
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Less fights?...
It's off topic a bit but I'm convinced that arguments at the table stem not from an alignment issue per say, but from a person's or people's immaturity or selfish problems.
I'm an alignment nut and I play with lots of different gamers in lots of different styles -- and I haven't had a real problem in one of my games since High School -- when we were considerably less mature and more selfish individually.
I posit that it's not the alignment but the Player that causes the problem.
I don't have any problems playing with paladins. I have problems playing with people who take every opportunity to preach to the unenlightened whether it be that damned smug monk, the wicked thief that thinks that we're all wicked at heart, or the paladin that just can't bite back the chance to spread a little gospel on ears he knows are at best deaf. Its just that people that run paladins tend to be the most grievous of offenders.
Forgive me, but it sounds like you have a problem with players role-playing with other players rather than doing their role-playing with NPCs.
I may be wrong, but if not, I find that interesting. I would rather see tons more intra-party role-playing in my group.
I do agree with law, though. Take away law and allow Chaotic Paladins, and suddenly the code makes no sense, since Chaos implies spontaneity (sometimes).
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If you capture an Evil Demon who uses the Undead to kill the innocent for his master. After capture of said Demon, is it justified to Torture the Demon for information using the abilities that were given to the Paladin? Would it be okay to give the Demon Mercy and kill it afterwards?
Sounds like someone's been watching Dorkness Rising.
RedArmy. I love good role play. Its why I play the game. If I just wanted to crunch numbers I'd do it at home. I've only ever had this problem a few times with PCs and once with a DM. There is nothing wrong with stating your characters perspective and world view and trying to persuade others of it if they want to listen.
I tend to play very passionate characters as well, I've run a paladin myself, and I make a note to try not to convert other group members that already have their own set world view to do so is as offensive as a rogue picking the pockets of his own group. He may be role playing his character correctly, but if he picks the wrong pocket too many times he could be in for fight. A paladin preaching unwanted to the other priests doesn't invite discussion it comes across as condescension and well to be dismissive of another's beliefs can put some characters in a rather foul mood.
Yeah if you add the Chaotic then you lose the honor and loyalty parts of the equation which to me just feels wrong.
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If you capture an Evil Demon who uses the Undead to kill the innocent for his master. After capture of said Demon, is it justified to Torture the Demon for information using the abilities that were given to the Paladin? Would it be okay to give the Demon Mercy and kill it afterwards?Sounds like someone's been watching Dorkness Rising.
Egads! I didn't realize that was there until just now! I thought of that before I saw that funny series. I always pictured the Paladin standing before an impaled Demon, who wispers his last words "I do this for the Demon Lord..." as he fades to dust. But thats just me.
Do you allow party members to CdG people? Do you have to stabilize them, even if they attacked you and are agents of evil? what if you are not near a town, do you have to have a train of prisoners behind you or take the chance that the second they regain consciousness they will just start hunting you all over again?No, you don't have to stabilize them. A CdG is a bit callous, but against a dying evildoer I wouldn't call it wrong to do.
As for prisoners, it'd be ideal to take them back to a town, but if that isn't feasible it is permissible to render judgment on the spot. If you can guard that train of prisoners, go ahead and take them back to town, but if not, judge them and mete out punishment where they are.
Permissible? Almost every government has laws against private individuals taking actions like summary execution into their own hands. Dispatching a foe outside of combat - where self-defense can not be claimed - is pretty much always going to be illegal unless performed by someone empowered by the government to enforce the peace.
So many paladin problems would be helped if the paladin were being backed by a legitimate government authority, but this seems unusually rare in many settings.
This assumes a modern day style of government. This almost never exists. If it did, adventuring would be illegal. Just because it'd be illegal to do in modern day America or Europe doesn't mean a Good aligned adventurer shouldn't do it.
I can't think of any society - particularly one that a paladin would respect - that would support that summary execution of a helpless individual is something that should be left to the whims of any given individual.
You try to give the paladin a very modern ideal with civil disobedience and then try to go away from modern with allowing high-lethality vigilante justice. Seems a bit of mixed signals are being sent here.
Pretty much everything adventurers do amounts to extrajudicial killing. Paladins may have modern ideals, but the martial aspects of their behavior would never be tolerated by a modern society, and allowances need to be made for the sake of the game. Same with any adventurer. No modern society would tolerate them, and game societies need to account for this for the sake of fun.
Furthermore, in most medieval societies you'd have probably gotten away with this behavior up until the point where you started killing people the closest authorities actually liked. Vigilatism was very common back in those days, and it was seen in a different light. Remember that organized law enforcement is a recent invention.
Also remember that I did say letting the authorities handle things is good. Self judgment is, as I said, for situations where that is not an option.
Organized law enforcement has been around for more than a thousand years the states were just smaller. As far as the killing of people roaming the countryside this action was greatly frowned upon depending on local law the reaction varied between here have a job for killing those bandits to you killed them without imperial degree you shall be executed summarily. See the Code of Hammurabi.
There is a big difference between killing goblins, monsters, and bears (not members of society) and individuals that are classified as sentient races.