How would you implement Final Fantasy summons?


Conversions


As the title says I'm curious as to how forum members and Paizo staff who are fans of the Final Fantasy series would implement final fantasy summons. All of the forum posts I found regarding final fantasy summons were using the summoners eidolon to mimic iconic summons. So how would you do it, would stat up the summons using the summoners eidolon, or would you create a spell mimics how summoning works in final fantasies 3-9, or would you stat up the summons as monsters and create spells that would summon them like the summon spells already in the game. I would like to hear your thoughts.


I would stat up the eidolons to mimic the Final Fantasy summons, using either magicite as a magic item (for Final Fantasy VI) or a spell-like ability (for the other FFs).


There are a couple of methods, depending on which FF game you're going with.

On the easy end, early FF summons are trivially implemented by a PC saying "I'm going to re-name my cone of cold spell to Shiva, and it works by summoning this ice critter that blasts my foes and then vanishes."

Mid-range, re-flavor summoning spells, especially the planar ally / planar binding sequences. Pick out something you could summon normally, file off the serial numbers and write a new description for it, and presto. (For example, I once had an NPC wizard use Gate to call up an "avatar of vengeance" - one of the dragon gods in that setting - and it just used the stats for a pit fiend.)

Also mid-range is the summoner class; synthesist in particular could be used to replicate FF summons where the summoned creature "replaces" the summoner.

At the high end... 3.5 had a spell called "Summon Elemental Monolith" - a conjuration spell so powerful that it required continuous concentration from the caster or it went poof. Something like that could - with some effort - be adapted into an entire sequence of setting-specific summoning spells. This'd require a fair amount of work from the GM, though.


I think it really depends on what type of summoning you want and how much houseruling you want to do.

Early Final Fantasies and the Tactics series can be easily handled by, as Emerald Wyvern said, simply renaming spells.

For Rydia's mother (and Rydia in FFIV DS), the summons bound to the life force of the summoner could be a polymorph spell (Dragon Form for the Mist Dragon and Bahamut, Elemental Body for Ifrit, Shiva, and Ramuh/Indra, etc.).

For Yuna's type of summoning, I would create an archetype that can change the evolutions of an eidolon after a 2 round ritual, but they can only be changed to prebuilt sets created by the GM that you have to find/earn the rituals for.


I created a character for the FR using the Spell Thematics feat to rename some spells into FF summons, using early FF style. This was a wizard in 3.5. I had these spells IIRC:

magic missile: Cactrot-1000 needles
battering ram: Chocobo
fireball: Ifrit-Hellfire
stoneskin: Golem
cone of cold: Shiva (complete with Arcane Thesis feat and several others, as this was my favorite)
chain lightning: Ramuh-Justice Bolt
spell turning: Carbuncle
polymorph any object: Ragnarok ("Better off Dried Meat :)")
meteor swarm: Bahamut-Mega Flare

I eventually added a few others, but these were the core spells I used.

For Yuna's summons, you need to have several eidolons statted up, ready to go. Each one has to advance as you do, because the Aeons grew more powerful as Yuna did (my Shiva was a walking menace at the end of the game that I didn't want to fight even with my hyper-powered Lulu and Auron....). I'd combine Bluescale's idea of a summoning ritual to swap eidolons with the synthesist idea. The summoner would do a ritual in combat, then pick one of the eidolons and there's Shiva. The eidolon would be able to fight and soak up damage from there.


Second that early FF summons can be simulated with existing spells.

Second also that for long term summons, the Summoner works well. What I did for this was to create an archetype.

My Customization wrote:


Polysummon Summoner
This archetype allows a summoner to make more than one pact with an otherworldly entity. The summoner cannot summon more than one eidelon at a time, but, they may switch out their eidelons as needed. The downside being that all the eidelons the summoner makes a pact with share a common pool of hp.

Benefit: At first level, the summoner may make a pact with one additional eidelon (two at first level). At 5th level, and each additional 5 levels (10th, 15th, 20th) the summoner gains the ability to form a pact with one additional eidelon. Note, however, that the eidelon's forms are less changeable than a normal eidelon's. The eidelons cannot be affected by the spell transmogrify.

In addition, the eidelon's all share a common HP pool (the summoner only calculates HP once for all eidelon's using the lowest CON of all his eidelons). If one eidelon is injured, then replacing it with a different eidelon results in summoning an injured eidelon. For example, a summoner (level 10) may have one quadruped eidelon with natural attacks that have fire, a serpentine that has ice natural attacks, and a biped with acid natural attacks. If the lowest CON was 12 amongst the three, the HP would be calculated for all 3 as if they had a 12 CON (although fort saves would be calculated normally for each).

To switch out an eidelon for another, the summoner may take a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity to banish and replace an already summoned eidelon. If the summoner doesn't have an eidelon summoned, they must use the normal 1 minute long ritual to summon one first. The summoner may not use the Summon Eidelon spell to summon a 2nd eidelon while he already has an eidelon summoned. He may, however, switch out his eidelon's using a full action as specified above when the spell is already in use.

Replaces: This archetype replaces the summoners Spell Like Ability to summon monsters.

Using the above, you could get the Yuna type summons with long periods of usefulness. Alternately, if you wanted to only have the summons show up for limited time, you could leave the normal spell like ability intact, but only allow the eidelon to be brought out via the Summon Eidelon spell. If you do that, I'd allow the summon monster spell like ability to also be used to summon the eidelon. That would give you N summons per day, with extras by giving up spells.

The Exchange

andromada369 wrote:
As the title says I'm curious as to how forum members and Paizo staff who are fans of the Final Fantasy series would implement final fantasy summons...

A summoner's regular eidolon has a power level intended for a more-or-less-permanent companion - whereas the summoned entities in the Final Fantasy games (at least in the ones I know fairly well) are only "around" for a very brief time, usually only 1 round in PF terms.

I'd recommend generating some impressively high-CR critters, and then imposing a fairly severe 'cost' on summoners who conjure them (negative levels spring to mind) to prevent frequent use. Scripted as a Pathfinder spell or SLA, the summons might be abused, so what I'd do is 'anchor' these big-league summoned creatures to a single item (essentially a minor artifact) in a manner similar to a ring of djinni calling. I feel that the main game-balance problem is ensuring that summoning something like Titan or Alexander should be A) fairly staggering power-wise, and B) only used rarely (hence the suggestion that summoning one should carry a fairly heavy-duty price, such as negative levels.)


Knights of the round is a 15 round summon that kills everything that could be alive if your party hasn't killed it all.


How about guardian forces from VIII?


mdt wrote:

Second that early FF summons can be simulated with existing spells.

Second also that for long term summons, the Summoner works well. What I did for this was to create an archetype.

My Customization wrote:


Polysummon Summoner
This archetype allows a summoner to make more than one pact with an otherworldly entity. The summoner cannot summon more than one eidelon at a time, but, they may switch out their eidelons as needed. The downside being that all the eidelons the summoner makes a pact with share a common pool of hp.

Benefit: At first level, the summoner may make a pact with one additional eidelon (two at first level). At 5th level, and each additional 5 levels (10th, 15th, 20th) the summoner gains the ability to form a pact with one additional eidelon. Note, however, that the eidelon's forms are less changeable than a normal eidelon's. The eidelons cannot be affected by the spell transmogrify.

In addition, the eidelon's all share a common HP pool (the summoner only calculates HP once for all eidelon's using the lowest CON of all his eidelons). If one eidelon is injured, then replacing it with a different eidelon results in summoning an injured eidelon. For example, a summoner (level 10) may have one quadruped eidelon with natural attacks that have fire, a serpentine that has ice natural attacks, and a biped with acid natural attacks. If the lowest CON was 12 amongst the three, the HP would be calculated for all 3 as if they had a 12 CON (although fort saves would be calculated normally for each).

To switch out an eidelon for another, the summoner may take a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity to banish and replace an already summoned eidelon. If the summoner doesn't have an eidelon summoned, they must use the normal 1 minute long ritual to summon one first. The summoner may not use the Summon Eidelon spell to summon a 2nd eidelon while he already has an eidelon summoned. He may, however, switch out his eidelon's using a full action as specified above when the

...

That archetype looks like it could be quite fun. Then again it also looks like all the complaints about the summoner are multiplied.


andromada369 wrote:
That archetype looks like it could be quite fun. Then again it also looks like all the complaints about the summoner are multiplied.

Well, that's not the only changes I made to the class before creating that archetype. I limited attacks (regardless of type, natural or manufactured weapon) to the limit on the table. I also halved the AC bonus but allowed armor to be worn, and allowed the eidelon a number of magic item slots equal to level / 2. That seems to have fixed most of the issues.

For this archetype though, all the eidelons share a pool of hitpoints. So switching one out for another doesn't gain you anything as far as ability to stay around. What it really does is give you different ones with flexibility around them. So, for example, you can do an elemental motif, where you have a fire, ice, acid, water eidelon combo, and summon out whichever one you need. And you give up the ability to spam summon with your spell like ability. Honestly, that's the more powerful ability.

Edit: clarification


I would probably go with a summoner archetype, and tweak his Spelllike abilitiy to summon monsters as to only summon a specific eidolon, he gets better eidolons per lvl, carbuncle from 8 could for example be lvl 1 and have an aura or spelllike ability that reflects magic or whatever, he would have horrible combat statistics though..

The eidolon itself would either be the main eidolon and the player could invent it himself, or something along that way. Or be a synthesist and be a bit like linking in FF8.


mdt wrote:
andromada369 wrote:
That archetype looks like it could be quite fun. Then again it also looks like all the complaints about the summoner are multiplied.

Well, that's not the only changes I made to the class before creating that archetype. I limited attacks (regardless of type, natural or manufactured weapon) to the limit on the table. I also halved the AC bonus but allowed armor to be worn, and allowed the eidelon a number of magic item slots equal to level / 2. That seems to have fixed most of the issues.

For this archetype though, all the eidelons share a pool of hitpoints. So switching one out for another doesn't gain you anything as far as ability to stay around. What it really does is give you different ones with flexibility around them. So, for example, you can do an elemental motif, where you have a fire, ice, acid, water eidelon combo, and summon out whichever one you need. And you give up the ability to spam summon with your spell like ability. Honestly, that's the more powerful ability.

Edit: clarification

I was actually referring to the complaint I saw most and that was the amount of paperwork that had to be kept.


andromada369 wrote:


I was actually referring to the complaint I saw most and that was the amount of paperwork that had to be kept.

Ah, then yeah, it does increase the paperwork.


Well if it were a permanent summons like ff 10 on up than i would use an edilon. If it were from a previous game where they show up and attack something i would just tweak a spell to have a cool visual effect.

Cast Metior Swarm and Bahamut shows up Meteor swarms your foes than vanishes.

Liberty's Edge

I agree, using the Summon - Creature/Elemental/Ect... spells would be the best way, just stat the Final Fantasy summons off of base creatures in the bestiaries to fit the style of Final Fantasy game yours is based off of. Change special abilities of them to fit the proper flavor text, the same with descriptions. And you could tie them into items to represent GF cards, Magicite, or Materia. This isn't really difficult, even Bahamut would be easy to create. You can also tie other spells to those items to represent the other forms of magic and the upgrades some of those summons and such got in those games.


I got to thinking about it and I remembered that in the later final fantasy games, i.e. 10 and later, when you summoned the rest of the party went poof until it was unsommoned. Would you incorporate something like that?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Lincoln Hills wrote:
andromada369 wrote:
As the title says I'm curious as to how forum members and Paizo staff who are fans of the Final Fantasy series would implement final fantasy summons...

A summoner's regular eidolon has a power level intended for a more-or-less-permanent companion - whereas the summoned entities in the Final Fantasy games (at least in the ones I know fairly well) are only "around" for a very brief time, usually only 1 round in PF terms.

I'd recommend generating some impressively high-CR critters, and then imposing a fairly severe 'cost' on summoners who conjure them (negative levels spring to mind) to prevent frequent use. Scripted as a Pathfinder spell or SLA, the summons might be abused, so what I'd do is 'anchor' these big-league summoned creatures to a single item (essentially a minor artifact) in a manner similar to a ring of djinni calling. I feel that the main game-balance problem is ensuring that summoning something like Titan or Alexander should be A) fairly staggering power-wise, and B) only used rarely (hence the suggestion that summoning one should carry a fairly heavy-duty price, such as negative levels.)

I'm actually thinking that a better negative price might be massive area of effect, like the summons had in Final Fantasy Tactics. It was almost impossible to aim them without hitting your own team, add in that you might be fighting in a enclosed space or out in the middle of the town square. You can't just summon Titan, everyone will see the 160 ft hole in the middle of the city or you'll be collapsing the tunnels on yourself. Alexander is always shown appearing in the distance, since it would crush the city if it walked in, and blasting everything from the closest mountain top. Maybe Bahamut does a flyby breath weapon that's much larger than a normal dragon's would be. Summon them a couple times in the wrong place and magic becomes illegal.

-X


Pathfinder LO Special Edition Subscriber

Personally I went with the magicite used in FF6. Every character gains a special item slot to equip one piece of magicite. It grants some minor bonuses constantly and after having it 'equipped' for a day they can start summoning the esper within. This constitutes a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity (but cannot be interrupted) and generally works exactly like some sort of spell being cast. The DC of the effect is equal to 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Int OR Cha OR Wis modifier. Initially the summon ability at first can only be used once per week. Damage and effects tend to scale with character level (Ex. 1d4 damage per character level).

Like the Legacy weapons of 3.5, doing certain events will allow you to further attune yourself to the magicite and esper within which increases the bonuses (Ex. 1d4 damage per level becomes 1d6 per level), how often they can be called, and potentially the attacks the esper is capable of. Higher levels of attunement allow the use of other spell-like abilities related to the esper as well (Ex. Shiva would grant ray of frost at first, then eventually ones like ice storm and cone of cold).

It's been working fairly well so far. The party has only found one so far but they have been madly seeking more since. The one using it has been roleplaying out conversations with the esper which has made for some fun moments not to mention a source of guidance/advice when needed.

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