| Spes Magna Mark |
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I've been pondering about using the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game to simulate a low-magic, swords-and-sorcery sort of world. Yes, I know there are other games on the market that already do what the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game isn't designed to do. To answer your question: because I enjoy tweaking -- even torturing -- game systems so that they'll do new things. So, with that out of the way, let's move on and look at the this low-magic world (and let's call that world Cìhan). Here're my initial, rough draft thoughts, and I'm looking for thoughtful comments/criticisms.
Character Classes
The inhabitants of Cìhan have some knowledge of magic, but neither arcane nor divine magic are as ubiquitous as they are on other worlds. When making a character for Cìhan, players find class choices constrained.
1. Alchemists, bards, clerics, druids, inquisitors, magi, oracles, sorcerers, summoners, witches, and wizards are prohibited. These classes simply do not exist in Cìhan.
2. Paladins and rangers exist, but they do not gain the ability to cast spells.
3. Barbarians, cavaliers, fighters, gunslingers, monks, and rogues are unchanged.
Paladins & Rangers of Cìhan
Instead of spells, paladins get bonus feats starting at 4th level. These bonus feats must be chosen from among channeling feats and combat feats, and the paladin must meet the prerequisites before a feat can be selected. An additional bonus feat is gained at 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th levels.
Rangers also get bonus feats starting at 4th level. These bonus feats must be chosen from either combat feats or any general feat that provides a bonus to skill checks (such as Alertness). Of course, the ranger must meet the prerequisites before a feat can be selected. Like the paladin, an additional bonus feat is gained at 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th levels.
Magical Feats
Now that we've removed all spellcasting ability from Cìhan, let's add some of it back to the world. After all, we're doing low-magic, not no-magic. Here's where magical feats come into play.
Many magical feats give a character the ability to cast spell as if he were a member of a specific spellcasting class. This ability includes all of the normal rules for that class. So, for example, a character with Wizardry has a spellbook, suffers arcane spell failure for casting spells with somatic components while wearing armor, modifies his spells' save DCs with his Intelligence bonus, et cetera.
Alchemy
You have unlocked the secrets of alchemical magic.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Craft (alchemy) 3 ranks
Benefit: When you gain this feat, choose one speciality: bombs, extracts, or mutagens. You can prepare your chosen specialty as if you were an alchemist. Your effective alchemist level equals one-half your ranks in Craft (alchemy).
Special: You can gain Alchemy up to three times. Each time, select a new specialty.
Bardic Magic
You can use artistic performance to cast bard spells.
Prerequisite: Cha 13, Perform 3 ranks
Benefit: You can cast spells as if you were a bard. Your effective bard level equals one-half your ranks in Perform.
Bardic Performance
You can use artistic performance to create magical effects.
Prerequisite: Cha 13, Perform 3 ranks
Benefit: You gain the bardic performance class feature. Your effective bard level equals one-half your ranks in Perform. This means you initially have the following bardic performance abilities: countersong, distraction, fascinate, and inspire courage +1. As your effective bard level increases, your inspire courage bonus increases and you gain inspire competence, suggestion, dirge of doom, et cetera (as appropriate for your effective bard level).
Divine Magic
Your faith in a higher power grants you divine magic.
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks
Benefit: You can cast spells as if you were a cleric. Your effective cleric level equals one-half your ranks in Knowledge (religion). You also acquire the cleric's aura and spontaneous casting class features.
Nature Magic
You draw divine power from the natural world and the elements.
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Knowledge (nature) 3 ranks
Benefit: You can cast spells as if you were a druid. Your effective druid level equals one-half your ranks in Knowledge (nature). You also gain the druid's spontaneous casting class feature.
Sorcerer Bloodline
You have an unusual heritage that grants you special abilities.
Benefit: Select a sorcerer bloodline. That bloodline's class skill is added to your list of class skills.
Limitation: This feat must be chosen at character level 1st. You do not gain any other benefits from your bloodline unless you take the Sorcery feat.
Sorcery
Your unusual heritage grants you arcane power.
Prerequisite: Cha 13, bloodline class skill 3 ranks, Sorcerer Bloodline
Benefit: You can cast spells as if you were a sorcerer. Your effective sorcerer level equals one-half your ranks in your bloodline class skill. You also gain bloodline benefits (excluding bonus feats) as a sorcerer of your effective sorcerer level.
Wizardry
Your study of arcane magic has taught you to cast spells.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Knowledge (arcana) 3 ranks
Benefit: You can cast spells as if you were a wizard. Choose an arcane school, and gain its normal abilities and limitations. Your effective wizard level equals one-half your ranks in Knowledge (arcana).
Special: You gain a spellbook with starting spells as if you were a 1st-level wizard when you select this feat. You do not have the arcane bond class feature.
Magic Items
Creatures with a caster level above 10th are very rare in Cìhan (and those that exceed this caster level are limited to supernatural creatures). Consequently, Cìhan does not have the full spectrum of magic items that might be found on other worlds. When generating treasure hordes, the easiest thing to do is simply disallow any magic item with a caster level higher than 10th or that has prerequisites requiring a spell higher than 5th level.
Furthermore, as a rule of thumb, restrict a character's magic items to a value of no more than 900 gold pieces per character level. Please note that this guideline isn't intended to replace normal character wealth by level parameters. Thus, a 5th-level character in Cìhan would not be likely to have any single magic item worth more than 4,500 gold pieces.
Sample NPC: Gürsel Feridun of Cìhan
Human rogue 3
CR 2; XP 600
CN humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +5
DEFENSE
AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 10 (+3 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 25 (3d8+8)
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +0
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense +1
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee masterwork rapier +6 (1d6/18-20), or
Ranged Touch electricity ray +5 (1d6 electricity)
Special Attacks electricity ray (30 ft., 4/day), sneak attack +2d6
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 1st, concentration +2):
1st (4/day) - burning hands (Ref 12), shield
0th - detect magic, prestidigitation, read magic, resistance
Bloodline Djinni
STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 13
Base Atk +2; CMB +2; CMD 15
Feats Dodge, Sorcerer Bloodline (B), Sorcery, Weapon Finesse (B)
Skills Acrobatics +9, Bluff +7, Climb +6, Disable Device +9, Escape Artist +9, Knowledge (planes) +7, Perception +5, Sleight of Hand +9, Stealth +9
SQ finesse rogue, trapfinding
Languages Auran, Common
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Bloodline Arcana: Whenever Gürsel casts a spell that deals energy damage, he can change the type of damage to electricity. This also changes the spell’s descriptors to match this energy type.
Electricity Ray (Sp): Gürsel can unleash an elemental ray as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. This ray deals 1d6 points of electricity damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels he possesses. Gürsel can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.
EQUIPMENT
arcane scroll (blur[/b], CL 3rd), [i]oil of bless weapon, potion of cure light wounds, potion of mage armor (x2), masterwork rapier, thieves' tools, plus 30 gp
| RuyanVe |
Greetings, fellow traveller.
Looks interesting. I like the idea of restricting magic in a game world.
I suggest looking at the rogue talents of Minor and Major Magic as well.
Do you think the ranger and paladin have enough *oompf* to be viable when compared to the straight fighter?
I also suggest looking at the adept, adding some spell casting abilities and make it available as a player class.
Ruyan.
| mplindustries |
I've not run Pathfinder, but I ran plenty of AD&D, D&D 3.0, and D&D 3.5 and I always ran low magic games.
I eliminated all spells from PC hands, as you're doing. In 3.5 there were spell-less variants for Rangers and Paladins, so that was easy enough, though your method of giving Bonus Feats also looks fine.
I also created a Bardic variant called a Skald. I envisioned it as a Bard trading spells for better combat ability. In Pathfinder, were I to recreate it, I'd probably make it as a Fighter Archetype with 2 extra skills per level, adding Perform to their class list, and getting Bardic Performance (except for Fascinate, Suggestion, Soothing Performance, and Mass Suggestion), all in exchange for Heavy Armor proficiency, their 1st level Bonus Feat, Bravery, Armor Training, Weapon Training, Armor Mastery, and Weapon Mastery. I don't know, I might steal another Bonus feat every so often if I felt it was necessary.
I did not add spellcasting back with feats--I just left it out entirely. There were also no magic items at all in my games--not even potions, though I did double natural healing to make up for it somewhat.
It's worked out for many, many campaigns over the years, though I have to admit that now, for Sword and Sorcery, I use Savage Worlds (especially Beasts and Barbarians and Totems of the Dead), and I'd never go back.
| Kolokotroni |
I would be concerned with the balance of the game with these new feats. It seems like the magic feats would almost be must haves, you gain ALOT for the feat. It seems to me a fighter for instance that takes the divine magic feat would be vastly superior in many cases to a fighter that chooses non-magic feats. You might have the effect where EVERY PC in your party now uses magic, which is kind of counter to your goal I think.
| Spes Magna Mark |
Thanks for the feedback so far, y'all. Re: paladins and rangers and oomph!, I think the bonus feats would compensate well enough. IME, the spell ability of both paladins and rangers is almost incidental to their effectiveness as combatants.
I would be concerned with the balance of the game with these new feats. It seems like the magic feats would almost be must haves, you gain ALOT for the feat. It seems to me a fighter for instance that takes the divine magic feat would be vastly superior in many cases to a fighter that chooses non-magic feats. You might have the effect where EVERY PC in your party now uses magic, which is kind of counter to your goal I think.
That's my instinct as well. I do want there to be some magical ability, but I also don't the feats to be must-haves. At the same time, I don't them to be never-haves.
What I'm wondering is whether redoing the feats is the way to go, imposing changes to the magic system in general, or both. For example, a common trope in the swords-and-sorcery genre is that magic is physically taxing.
So, in addition to the feat and skill tax in order to get the ability to cast spells, perhaps the act of casting spells itself would impose at least a risk of physical harm? Or maybe psychic harm? Or maybe both?
I've also toyed with the idea of making spells act like rituals by increasing casting times. 1st-level spells would remain unchanged, 2nd-level spells would all require at least a full-round, and 3rd-level or higher spells would have casting times ranging into a minute or more. This would make most combat spells, for example, wildly impractical.
Thoughts?
| Tim4488 |
I'm with Kolokotroni on this one. The idea of the harm imposed or the increased casting times are both good ideas. You could also do something like:
Wizardry or Apprentice Magician
Your study of arcane magic has taught you to cast spells.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Knowledge (arcana) 3 ranks
Benefit: You can cast a limited number of spells as if you were a wizard. Choose three arcane schools, you can only learn and cast spells from these schools. Your effective wizard level equals one-half your ranks in Knowledge (arcana), but you may only learn Wizard spells of 2nd level and below.
Special: You gain a spellbook with starting spells as if you were a 1st-level wizard when you select this feat. You do not have the arcane bond class feature or the special abilities of any arcane school.
Improved Wizardry or Journeyman Wizard
Your study of arcane magic has both deepened and broadened.
Prerequisites: Int 15, Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Spellcraft 3 ranks
Benefit: You gain access to a fourth school of magic, and may now learn spells of up to 4th level.
Greater Wizardry or Archmage (By this world's standards)
You are among the greatest wizards of your time, likely ruling over nations or advising the greatest heroes of the era.
Prerequisites: Int 17, Knowledge (arcana) 9 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks, fluent in Draconic
Benefit: You gain access to a fifth school of magic, and may learn spells of up to 6th level.
Honestly, in a "low magic" setting I don't think I'd go above 6th or 7th level spells for anyone. Maybe the improved clerical feats open up one domain each and require ranks in Diplomacy and speaking Celestial, Infernal or Abyssal, or the improved nature bond and greater nature bond give you an animal companion at 1/2 your level and your full level respectively, and also require ranks in Survival or Knowledge (Geography) as you advance.
| RuyanVe |
Greetings again, fellow travellers.
What Kolokotroni wrote was my concern, too, after I had a closer look at your sample char, Mark. The rogue just got much more powerful.
In addition the fighter with his many bonus feats will outshine most of the casters now.
And I am not sure the other now purely martial characters like ranger and paladin add enough class abilities to the scales to make up for it.
@Tim:
I think by limiting caster level to 1/2 your ranks in the related skill, Mark does achieve what you suggest - limiting the spell level to 5, Tim.
I think, the spell progression of the adept would fit your concept really well, both for divine and arcane casters, Mark. Add your idea of longer lasting rituals (needing more than one caster, say +1 for each spell level above 5 to a maximum of 5 for level 9 spell effects) - 10 min or more and you should be fine.
Another idea might be to use the spell progression of the paladin and ranger and apply it to the casters?
What will happen to the item creation feats?
Hm, seems to be more questions than additional input from my side.
Ruyan.
| Spes Magna Mark |
I think, the spell progression of the adept would fit your concept really well, both for divine and arcane casters, Mark.
Good thought. A sort of universal, but more restricted caster progression, one for prepared casters, another for spontaneous?
What will happen to the item creation feats?Haven't even thought of it. I'm not sure anything would need to happen given that sufficient limitations on the caster element would also limit item creation feats. I think. :)
Don't wanna to sound rude, but why not play Iron Heroes?
Apparently you missed these two key sentences from the OP (emphasis added):
To answer your question: because I enjoy tweaking -- even torturing -- game systems so that they'll do new things. .... ...I'm looking for thoughtful comments/criticisms.
| Spes Magna Mark |
I think, the spell progression of the adept would fit your concept really well, both for divine and arcane casters, Mark.
Good thought. A sort of universal, but more restricted caster progression, one for prepared casters, another for spontaneous?
What will happen to the item creation feats?
Haven't even thought of it. I'm not sure anything would need to happen given that sufficient limitations on the caster element would also limit item creation feats. I think. :)
Don't wanna to sound rude, but why not play Iron Heroes?
Apparently you missed these two key sentences from the OP (emphasis added):
To answer your question: because I enjoy tweaking -- even torturing -- game systems so that they'll do new things. .... ...I'm looking for thoughtful comments/criticisms.
| Kolokotroni |
How do you feel about incorporating 3rd party material into your world? Or using it for inspiration. Super genius games has the Genius Guide to Arcane Archetypes and Divine Archetypes which might suit you. Esetially in this line of products each existing class as a suite of abilities they can trade out for archetypes. In the arcane and divine archetypes they add in limited casting abilities (never more then bard casting). That might be more in line with what you want, and since at least in (very) general terms they are equivalent abilities there would be less of a balance issue then making them feats. Having to trade out important abilities would make them a real choice as opposed to a must have.
Edit:
Just to make clear, none of the archetypes are as robust as a bard, they are always far more limited in their spell selection. For instance the Wise Archetype from divine archetypes is 6 levels (bard style) of divine spells, but pretty much only the cure and condition removal spells.
| AdamMeyers |
Here's my thought: I love the Eldritch Heritage feats and lots of my characters take them. It's a great way to add magic to a non-magical character, and a good model to follow. Rogue's also got the minor and major magical feats you can take as a model.
The only problem with taking feats to gain spellcasting abilities is that you're in essence becoming a gestalt for the cost of a few feats. Spellcasters gain spells in exchange for levels not spent in combat-related classes. You could let them take spellcaster classes with a huge societal stigma (so they have to RP that they aren't spellcasters and if they're caught spellcasting they'll be executed, but that's a special version of game.)
Other ideas I think would work best is either:
1. let any class take the minor and major magic rogue talents as a feat, even letting them take improved major and greater major (custom feats, where they gain a 2nd or 3rd level spell instead of just a first) if they want to continue that feat tree. They gain magic, but not much, not enough to enchant, and in an expensive feat tree. Likewise you can encourage the Eldritch Heritage feats to gain spell-like abilities in a game-balanced way.
2. Other thoughts: Let them multi-class as a spellcaster at a 1 spellcaster/2 other class maximum. They have to trade out levels of other classes for spellcaster levels, they just can only have 1/3 their character level as spellcaster levels.
3. Make them take alchemist and magus. Both are minor spellcasters compared to other classes and fit more a sword and sorcery style (one uses potions and items to do it, the other is a combat sorcerer who fights Gandalf style, never getting powerful enough spells to really break the game against completely non-magic opponents.) Likewise a Bard isn't a dangerous enough spellcaster to really cause a problem and is still balanced compared to the normal classes.
4. Make new archetypes for them. Let them get some spellcasting abilities by trading out class abilities: maybe sorcerer or Cleric spell lists but with a Paladin and Ranger's spell level and progression.
Hope that helps.
| Spes Magna Mark |
How do you feel about incorporating 3rd party material into your world? Or using it for inspiration. Super genius games has the Genius Guide to Arcane Archetypes and Divine Archetypes which might suit you.
I'm pretty flexible as a GM, and I can very well object to 3PP when I'm one myself. :) I'll need to make a note to check out those SGG products when I get the chance. Thanks.
AdamMeyers: Eldritch Heritage feats are worth looking at. Danke. I'd thought about multiclassing, but I not fond of multiclassing (or prestige classes for that matter).
LazarX: There aren't a sufficient number of monsters that require magic to defeat for to worry about. I've run alternate systems for recovery before that worked well without reliance on magic at all, so I'm not sweating that aspect of the game.
DΗ
|
If you're looking for more dangerous magic, my favorite magic system comes from a non-d20 game: Ghosts of Albion.
Essentially it works like this (converting to d20 on the fly):
1. No Spells/Day or PP or anything like that.
2. You have to make a Spellcasting roll to cast a spell. DCs are set by the level of the spell, though there are modifiers which apply as well.
2a. If you beat the DC, the spells works as intended. Gravy!
2b. If you fail the DC by alot, nothing happens and you just wasted a turn.
2c. If you fail the DC only by a little bit, you pulled up magical energy, but failed to control it. Bad stuff happens.
You make a roll on a table (d10+spell level), and bad stuff happens, ranging from the spell working normally (4 or less), to the spell going off late, to the caster taking damage, to hitting the wrong target, to the GM making up a dangerous backfire (16+): such as a big magical explosion, or opening a gate to another dimension for a few rounds and demons coming through, or what have you.
You have a "Magic Quality Level"; In PF it would roughly be equivalent to your highest spell level.
Spells that are less than half your highest spell level can be cast indefinitely.
Every time you cast a spell of a level higher than that, you get a cumulative -2 to future casting rolls, due to magical fatigue. The modifier applies to all casting rolls, regardless of spell level.
After 3-4 hours of resting or by spending an action point, the modifier goes away. In a low magic PF I'd probably convert this to reducing the penalty by 2 every hour. In a higher magic PF Game: maybe reduce it by 2 every 30 minutes or something.
Defensive spells don't increase the fatigue penalties, but they are affected by penalties you already have.
All casters are spontaneous in this variant.
| FreelanceEvilGenius |
How about just using the Caster Classes as Prestige classes. There is already a sytem for Prestige Classes. Just us prereqs like 5 ranks in Knowledge Arcan & Spellcraft, possible a feat or two. Then use them as a 10 level prestige class.
That just seems like the simplest and less disruptive option to me.
| Foghammer |
At the risk of sounding like a total drag, I don't think removing all caster-y classes is the route to go. The feat idea is definitely different, and not something to write off completely, but I just don't think it's going to have enough magic without a little bit of option in the class.
The caster as Prestige Class idea could work, methinks, if the requirements were low-ish and could be entered around 3rd or 4th level (just to put a little bump in the road) instead of at 6th or 7th as I so often see done in regular character progression.
This is not to say that casters should remain at full strength or retain all class abilities...
Perhaps a template could be applied to any class that meets a set of requirements? Not an archetype, but similar. You could take the adept NPC class spellcasting and make a list of things each class would have to sacrifice (like an archetype) in order to gain that limited spellcasting?
I don't really like the way that sounds either, though. Just brainstorming.
Is Spes Magna Games working on a product here...? :D
| Spes Magna Mark |
You could also consider the Spell-less Ranger from Kobold Quarterly #11 :)
But I like re-inventing wheels. :)
If you're looking for more dangerous magic, my favorite magic system comes from a non-d20 game: Ghosts of Albion. ....
Interesting, but that seems more complicated than what I'd prefer. I tend to avoid adding more dice rolls to the game.
How about just using the Caster Classes as Prestige classes. There is already a sytem for Prestige Classes. Just us prereqs like 5 ranks in Knowledge Arcan & Spellcraft, possible a feat or two. Then use them as a 10 level prestige class.
That just seems like the simplest and less disruptive option to me.
You could be right. I think my instinctive dislike of PrCs blocked me on this one. :)
Is Spes Magna Games working on a product here...? :D
Probably not. It doesn't seem like I have much time for product-working lately. :(
| Spes Magna Mark |
About those PrCs: I lean away from making spellcasting classes PrCs because it seems to run counter to the idea that the character has picked up a little spellcasting on the side as an addendum (so to speak) to his main class. I like the idea of a fighter who can cast a few spells better than the idea of a fighter/wizard.
I was thinking about adding a caveat to the spellcasting feats, namely that selecting them could reduce BAB or Hit Dice by one "step". I think this might make the feats both less desirable as well as balance the obvious power bump the feats give to an unmodified class. Perhaps this could simulate the PrC angle.
Thus, for example, a fighter could learn to cast spells like a sorcerer, but to do so, he'd have to either shift to Medium BAB or to d8 Hit Dice from that point forward.
I'm not at all convinced this is a good idea, however. I'm leaning more toward Tim4488's suggestion of making the feats into feat chains, thus increasing the feat and skill tax for specializing in magic.
| HawaiianWarrior |
You might also take a look at the Midnight campaign setting for 3rd edition D&D. It has a lower magic mechanic, changes a lot about the spellcasting classes (and gets rid of cleric completely, except for evil ones), and has feats that allow people to learn magic or even just dabble a little. It's an amazing setting and I hope to run a game in it someday.
(If you've already checked it out, please disregard.)
| Mortuum |
Here are some possibilities:
However casting ends up working in your game, you could base bonus spells per day on Con, rather than the usual stat for each class. That way magic itself is more physical and easier to do if you're tough. You might also want to use spell points and fatigue/exhaust characters who run low.
You could try using that step levels system that's been all over the forums recently. Allow characters to take a level's worth of class features from a forbidden class as an extra step every 1 or 2 levels. That way, learning to cast would come at the cost of character advancement speed without the need to multiclass.
If you go this way, there probably needs to be a feat for each caster class which grants one of their 1st level abilities and qualifies you to take their feature steps.
There's a non-casting paladin archetype in the APG which takes the whole holy light thing somewhat further. It's no less supernatural, though. Don't forget the trapper ranger from ultimate magic, either.
Consider giving more non-spellcasting magic as options for the martial classes. Fighters and rogues could be allowed to swap their combat feats and tricks for witch hexes, for example. The result should be a scary magical character who is nonetheless primarily something else entirely. You could possibly allow fighters some oracle mysteries too.
Helaman
|
Wizardry or Apprentice Magician
Your study of arcane magic has taught you to cast spells.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Knowledge (arcana) 3 ranks
Benefit: You can cast a limited number of spells as if you were a wizard. Choose three arcane schools, you can only learn and cast spells from these schools. Your effective wizard level equals one-half your ranks in Knowledge (arcana), but you may only learn Wizard spells of 2nd level and below.
Special: You gain a spellbook with starting spells as if you were a 1st-level wizard when you select this feat. You do not have the arcane bond class feature or the special abilities of any arcane school.Improved Wizardry or Journeyman Wizard
Your study of arcane magic has both deepened and broadened.
Prerequisites: Int 15, Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Spellcraft 3 ranks
Benefit: You gain access to a fourth school of magic, and may now learn spells of up to 4th level.Greater Wizardry or Archmage (By this world's standards)
You are among the greatest wizards of your time, likely ruling over nations or advising the greatest heroes of the era.
Prerequisites: Int 17, Knowledge (arcana) 9 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks, fluent in Draconic
Benefit: You gain access to a fifth school of magic, and may learn spells of up to 6th level.Honestly, in a "low magic" setting I don't think I'd go above 6th or 7th level spells for anyone. Maybe the improved clerical feats open up one domain each and require ranks in Diplomacy and speaking Celestial, Infernal or Abyssal, or the improved nature bond and greater nature bond give you an animal companion at 1/2 your level and your full level respectively, and also require ranks in Survival or Knowledge (Geography) as you advance.
DAAAAMN I like this - a LOT. Not sure how to use it but cutting it and pasting it somewhere to think about later.
| HawaiianWarrior |
You could try using that step levels system that's been all over the forums recently.
OMG how did I miss this? I love this!
| LovesTha |
About those PrCs: I lean away from making spellcasting classes PrCs because it seems to run counter to the idea that the character has picked up a little spellcasting on the side as an addendum (so to speak) to his main class. I like the idea of a fighter who can cast a few spells better than the idea of a fighter/wizard.
Yeah but the picking up a little bit of magic on the side sounds like a high magic world. When you can get a whole slew of spells for the cost of a single feat that shows that the world has magic leaking around everywhere and any brain dead fighter can master it.
Forcing the Fighter to stop improving his sword skills so he can learn some magic makes magic hard and rare.
| HawaiianWarrior |
Yeah but the picking up a little bit of magic on the side sounds like a high magic world. When you can get a whole slew of spells for the cost of a single feat that shows that the world has magic leaking around everywhere and any brain dead fighter can master it.
Hmm, this is a good point. Those feats do look like they provide lots and lots of power. They'll basically "back door" spellcasting back in, almost to the same degree as in the RAW.
If you really want low or infrequent magic, maybe a feat tree would be best. The first feat would grant the character three 0-level OR one 1st-level spell that they can cast a limited amount (once per day, or a number of times a day = their INT/WIS/CHA etc.). They can take this feat as many times as they like with the same result.
The next feat up the tree is one 2nd-level spell. Then the third feat is a 3rd-level spell. And so on. You might want to stop at 3rd level, because beyond that you start getting some pretty powerful effects (makes me think of the "Gandalf was a 5th-level wizard" thing).
I mentioned Midnight before... In that setting, characters can take a "Magecraft" feat, whereupon they must choose which tradition they want to follow: Charismatic, Hermetic, and Spiritual. This choice affects your spellcasting attribute, your spell list, and some flavor effects, plus it grants three 0 level and one 1st-level spells. From there, characters may take a "Spellcasting" feat to learn a new spell school and gain a spell, and "Spell Knowledge" feats to learn two new spells of a school they know.
There's more to it than that, but this gives you the idea.
| SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Maybe make those 3 rank feats let you qualify for spellcasting classes, so you take Apprentice Sorcerer at 3rd level, and then at 4th level, you can begin to take actual sorcerer levels. Treat the spellcasting levels as prestige classes, so you can only take 10 levels in them, keeping them relatively low magic. Actual prestige classes can be used by extraordinary characters that wanted to be primary spellcasters.
Alternatively (or in addition), you can require a feat for 1st level spells, 2nd level spells, 3rd level spells, etc.
Helaman
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Alternatively (or in addition), you can require a feat for 1st level spells, 2nd level spells, 3rd level spells, etc.
It is a VERY heavy feat tax that disincentives FULL casters - partial casters, such as bards, Magi etc have it SLIGHTLY easier. Multi-classer's would seem the best way, get in for exactly what you want and get out.
That said, this COULD work but expect that a) some players may get totally pissy about not playing a mage/cleric without more or less giving up their feats.
GMs need be aware of the implications of what this will do.
This may work best as a E6 etc concept - so casters SUCK for feats for levels 1,3, and 5 but once hitting the threshold they slowly start to increase their scope.
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Another issue with that huge feat tax is that it also severely limits what primary casters can do. They would not be able to take metamagic, item creation, spell focus, or spell penentration feats without sacrificing their higher level spells.
I think the prestige class idea is probably the best idea, maybe tweaked by requiring 1 or 2 custom feats (sorcerous bloodline and sorcery, for example).
Maybe come up with a PC-powered "expert" class that has +1/2 BAB, Good Will Saves, 1d6 Hit Dice, 6 or 8 skill points per level, and bonus feats every even level....or better yet, can spell skill points on feats! Different kinds of feats might have different costs, like 2 skill points for general feats, 3 skill points for teamwork feats, 4 skill points for metamagic and item creation feats, and 6 skill points for combat feats.
EDIT:
For really low magic, use a variation of Action Points or Hero Points. Magician classes have spells known or prepared, like a sorcerer or wizard, but have to spend an action point or hero point to cast a spell. Or maybe at higher levels, spend an action point or hero point to enter a "magic using trance" that lasts a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your character level + your primary casting stat modifier--during this "magic using trance," you can cast spells known or prepared as normal. So magic can be used in bursts, like a wizard's duel, or when a pointy hatted fellow needs to stop the progression of a balrog. Or a combat encounter. Obviously, magic-using classes are going to also want to have other means of dealing with combat encounters.
You'll also want to re-set action points or hero points each level, and not have them carry over from one level to the next. This should discourage hoarding hero points and encourage their use. Also, non-casters should have a way to spend action points or hero points to self-heal, kind of like the Second Wind talent that Tough Heroes get in d20 Modern. Maybe 1d6 + character level + Constitution modifier? Maybe 1d6 + CL + CM as an immediate action, 2d6 + CL + CM as a swift action, 3d6 + CL + CM as a move action, 4d6 + CL + CM as standard action, and 5d6 + CL + CM as a full round action? Max of 1d6 per character level, and at the slowest way, so 1d6 is full round action at 1st, standard at 2nd, move at 3rd, swift at 4th, and immediate at 5th?
Helaman
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For really low magic, use a variation of Action Points or Hero Points. Magician classes have spells known or prepared, like a sorcerer or wizard, but have to spend an action point or hero point to cast a spell. Or maybe at higher levels, spend an action point or hero point to enter a "magic using trance" that lasts a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your character level + your primary casting stat modifier--during this "magic using trance," you can cast spells known or prepared as normal. So magic can be used in bursts, like a wizard's duel, or when a pointy hatted fellow needs to stop the progression of a balrog. Or a combat encounter. Obviously, magic-using classes are going to also want to have other means of dealing with combat encounters.
You'll also want to re-set action points or hero points each level, and not have them carry over from one level to the next. This should discourage hoarding hero points and encourage their use. Also, non-casters should have a way to spend action points or hero points to self-heal, kind of like the Second Wind talent that Tough Heroes get in d20 Modern. Maybe 1d6 + character level + Constitution modifier? Maybe 1d6 + CL + CM as an...
Seems an adaptation of Fate points.
Back to the Feat tax thing, I like it but I think a slight change may help it and give it flavour.
So Caster Apprentice (Metamagic Feat) Requires Spellcraft 1 and Knowledge Arcane/Religon 1: Gives access to level 0, level 1 spells as well as level 2 spells of your Domain, bloodline or Arcane School. For classes without either choose a arcane school as focus.
This way they can get SOME bang for their buck with the single feat and it emphasizes domains/arcane schools/bloodlines etc.
Caster Journeyman (Metamagic Feat) Requires Spellcraft 3 and Knowledge Arcane/Religon 3 and gives access to level 2 spells and level 3 spells of your Domain, bloodline or Arcane School.
Caster Master (Metamagic Feat) Requires Spellcraft 5 and Knowledge Arcane/Religon 5 and gives access to level 3 spells and level 4 spells of your Domain, bloodline or Arcane School.
(I like E7 so I'll end it there but you could keep it going). It would give SOME temporary respite to those casters who wanted to spend a feat elsewhere.