What happens to a summoned creature when the summoning ends?

[Rebis Ouroboros]

Sorry if this has been covered before, but I simply must know.
When a summoning spell ends, does the summoned creature go back to where it came? What if the creature is killed? Would there be a way to prevent this (perhaps some sort of planar lock spell)?

I can't find the answer to this in the core rulebook or anywhere online.

- Rich

[spalding]

Yes. Doesn't matter didn't happen. Not really.

[Khrysaor]

You have to understand that when you summon something it's more like a projection of itself into our plane of existence and not actually bringing the creature to our plane.

1. Time's up, the projection fades/returns/disappers or however you want it to be seen as.
2. It's projection is killed and disappears but it does not die on its own plane.
3. 20th level conjuration specialist wizard can make the duration of any summon spell permanent until he chooses to make another similar spell permanent. It can still be killed, ending the spell but duration is null. Not sure if there's another way to make the duration permanent but you can make the duration longer with metamagic and feats that increase caster level for conjuration.

[Ashenfall]

I'm sure this is a legacy from previous editions, but my understanding has always been that the summoned creature (or it's corpse), de-materializes on the prime material plane, to go back to the plane it was summoned from.

I can only imagine the webcomics depicting this from the other side:

A family of fire giants, living in the artisans' ward of the city of brass, is sitting down to dinner. "Little" Maugthor is asking daddy a question, and daddy suddenly winks out of existence. Mommy spends time explaining that this happens sometimes, and that Daddy will be back soon. 1 round per level later, Daddy re-materializes at the dinner table, and falls face-first into the roast beast, skull split open and brains oozing out.

And you people wonder why fire giants are evil...

[spalding]

Quote:

Summoning: a summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.

Considering you can't summon a fire giant...

[Astral Wanderer]

I think the best way to work it is similar to Naruto's clones. In other words, when using spells of the Summoning subschool, you create a clone of the chosen type of creature (which, in case of intelligent creatures, has all the memories, knowledges and personality of the original, despite being totally obedient to the caster). The original stays where it is and knows nothing of its clone.
The only "issue" in this is: when the clone disappears (be it death or spell's expiration, it doesn't matter) you have to decide if the original acquires or not the memories of its clone. In Naruto's case: yes - in Pathfinder's case: as the GM wishes, but maybe it's better not, or no spellcaster would summon intelligent Outsiders in fear that they could use their summon-memories against him/her. There are other spells for that (secondary) purpose: the Calling subschool ones.

[ruemere]

Summoning is a tricky issue.

By RAW (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html):

Excerpt #1 (about Conjuration (summoning))
bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning)

Excerpt #2
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.

----

The problems here: scarcity (how do you know when you run out of a certain type of summoned creature), knowledge bleed (intelligent outsiders may trade information about summoners, adventuring locations and worse), possible interplanar visitors (blackmail, angelic mafia, a pit fiend with an offer one cannot refuse).

Basically, each time you summon a creature, especially of teleporting lawful evil outsider variety, you are getting marked. They watch, learn and eventually some nasty creature is likely to pay YOU a visit in person.

It gets worse if one calls Lawful Good outsiders... you may want to avoid cities with any LG temples afterwards, especially if you bother one of heavenly host.
In other words, any organized society of outsiders would be dangerous in longer term.

And what about perverting commands? Imagine that you call a powerful outsider. If it is fully sentient, it WILL attempt to pervert commands it finds not to its taste. If it's not, it will behave as decent summon should.

That's why in my games:
- the summoned creature is a projection, a shadow of the original and without ability to gather intelligence on summoner or act autonomously apart from defending the summoner/attacking anyone it perceives as summoner's opponent/accompanying the summoner (in this order of priority).
- the summoned creature obeys summoner's orders to the best of its ability and to the best of its understanding of summoner's intention. Period.
- the summoned creature won't have any clever ideas (even if it has a godlike intellect), waste its abilities needlessly to prevent the summoner from benefitting from them OR use any abilities requiring spell caster higher than summon spell level-2, i.e. no summoning a glabrezu 5 times to get those 5 perverted wishes.

Calling is a different matter altogether, as the creature retains its will. Still, I would be VERY hesitant to allow planar allies to grant wishes, too.

Regards,
Ruemere

[Set]

I sort of handwave that a summoned creature is no more or less 'real' than the astral body that a material plane resident forms on the astral plane.

And while it's certainly not anywhere in the game, I rule that the exact same policy applies for summoned nature's allies. An actual real living breathing riding dog isn't whisked away, dropping it's halfling rider on his butt wondering where his mount went, and then possibly maimed, cursed, poisoned or killed by the druid, to appear at it's original location all butchered. The same magic that causes creatures to sprout up out of nothing for reincarnated souls to occupy creates fake animals from the raw materials of the living world, that a druid can unflinchingly send into the jaws of certain death, knowing that he's not utterly decimating a local wolf pack's social structure or leaving a bunch of eagle chicks to starve to death because he got their mother killed off by having it help him set up a flank on a gnoll.

[HappyDaze]

So anything that hurts the summoned creature short of killing it is still carried over when it returns home? That really sucks for it.

[Drejk]

I see summoning not as conjuring a real creatures but as drawing upon extraplanar template for certain kind of creature and weaving a body around that template using the same process as astral projection. No real creature is harmed in the process and neither real creature experiences it. In case of actual outsiders summoning draws upon specific plane to form a temporary specimen of their regular denizens in a process similar to formation of real demon, elemental, etc.

[HappyDaze]

So almost like simulacrums, only at full strength but only for a very limited duration, right?

[Ashenfall]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Quote:

Summoning: a summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.

Considering you can't summon a fire giant...

Well just whiz all over my joke, why don't you! :D

Fire giants are on the Summon Nature's Ally VII list, btw.

[Set]

HappyDaze wrote:

So anything that hurts the summoned creature short of killing it is still carried over when it returns home? That really sucks for it.

If that's the interpretation gone with, it worse than sucks.

If it's an ongoing effect like burn, poison or bleed, the creature could return to its native plane *and then die forever,* because it died on it's home plane! Then there's the whole stabilization thing, which could lead to death.

A summoner would lose his eidolon probably before hitting 2nd level, and that's the end of his defining class feature, *forever.* Paladins who can summon celestial steeds would similarly have them for a little while, until the first time it 'dies' while still under the effects of a bleed, burn or poison effect, and then could write that class feature off.

That sort of stuff is probably why most GMs either ignore that entirely, or house-rule that summoned creatures don't 'bring stuff home from work' with them when they return to their home planes.

Even more potentially cruel, a conjurer could call up some creatures from a plane he despises, and inflict them with some hideous contagion, or infestation (rot grubs, russet mold, etc.) or effect / condition that will similarly not only kill the creature, but also bring home to it's family and friends an ongoing threat of plague or parasites or whatever. A demon-hating conjurer could call up dretches and infect them with russet mold, knowing that not only is he going to kill that dretch, but that it will bring home a nasty surprise for whatever demons reside in the place where it returns. Draping it in Brown Mold and shoving a delayed blast fireball down it's throat might add to the fun... Green Slime and something that explodes and sends green-slime-coated shrapnel in all directions could also work.

[CrankyRWMage]

I See it as a combination of the Astral Body and the Clone ideas above.

However, Since my group is HEAVY roleplay, I do make the summoner sweat the idea that the creature remembers the experience, albeit in a dream-like fog mostly, but really intelligent ones are still a worry that way.

This opens up some nice story potential and doesn't nurf the backstory for a whole country in the Golorian setting.

if your playing the Jade regent AP they give a nice set of rules for the players drawing attention to themselves in part 2. I've been using something like this for a while now for villains in my game. letting them truly become nemesis type NPCs. It would be easy to make one of these for those extra-plainer types your wizards may seem to favor.