I'm creating a Magus for an upcomming game, and was considering taking Disruptive & Spellbreaker (via the arcana).....
What's the prevelant opinion on these feats ?
Are they a solid choice ?
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I personally feel they are amazing. Anything that can cast a spell or use a spell-like ability needs to either cast defensively or risk getting the ever living snot kicked out of them. With those two feats not only do you make it harder for them to do so, but if they fail you still kick the ever living snot out of them. But this is coming from the person playing a character who is getting those 2 feats for free :)
Let's look at it objectively. The difficulty to cast each spell level defensively is:
1st Level--DC: 17
2nd Level--DC: 19
3rd Level--DC: 21
4th Level--DC: 23
5th Level--DC: 25
6th Level--DC: 27
7th Level--DC: 29
8th Level--DC: 31
9th Level--DC: 33
The earliest you can get Disruptive is level 6--an equivalent level spellcaster who started with an 18 in their casting stat and always put their bonus stat points there would have a +10 to their Concentration check, meaning they'd need to roll a 7, a 9, and an 11 to cast their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells defensively while within your threatened area. If they have Combat Casting, it'd be a 3, 5, and 7 respectively. Since there's no auto success involved here, Disruptive effectively adds a 20% spell failure chance. That doesn't seem too bad.
By the time you have Spellbreaker at 9th level, the casters are up to a 20 in their base stat and likely have a +4 enhancement bonus to it. They can cast up to 5th level spells and they'll have a +16, meaning they'll need to roll a 1, 3, 5, 7, or 9. With combat casting, it's a 1, 1, 1, 3, and 5. Disruptive is still adding 20% spell failure, but Spellbreaker is not especially likely to give you an AoO.
Around level 16 (I've found that to be roughly the effective end of most D&D games), they've got a +6 item at least and have a 22 base. They also almost certainly have at least one extra Caster Level from items. That gives them 8th level spells and a +26 to Concentration (+30 with Combat Casting). They'll need to roll a 3 for 7th level spells and a 5 for 8th level. With Combat Casting, it's an automatic success. Disruptive would add 20% spell failure, but only to their 7th or 8th level spells (well, and 6th if they don't have Combat Casting, but who doesn't by this point?). At this point Spellbreaker is all but worthless.
So, by pure math, in ideal circumstances, Disruptive is decently useful for maybe 5 or 6 levels, then minorly helpful in the end game. Spellbreaker is alomst always junk.
But here's the rub--this assumes the spellcasters are in your threatened area and that you have an extra AoO. You're going to be a Magus, right? How much reach do you expect to have? Unless you're a Whip Magus, you're looking at 5'. You might be able to get Enlarge Person for most fights, so 10'. But you'll probably never have a reach weapon for the most part, so that's going to generally be your limit.
How many spellcasters will be unable to escape your threatened area before casting? Early on, they can just 5' step. Later, they'll surely have some sort of move or swift action escape.
The numbers say Disruptive is ok, but the reality is that it will probably suck. Spellbreaker isn't even good by the numbers. I'd skip both if I were you.
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How many spellcasters will be unable to escape your threatened area before casting? Early on, they can just 5' step. Later, they'll surely have some sort of move or swift action escape.
That is true, but don't forget about Step Up:
Step Up (Combat)
You can close the distance when a foe tries to move away.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement.
Don't forget about Disruptive Recall from Ultimate Combat, too.
That is true, but don't forget about Step Up:
Step Up is nice, but if you recall, Disruptive is only really helpful for a short time if they can't escape your threatened area and now you're investing an additional feat to make it stick. I don't think that's really worth it at all.
Don't forget about Disruptive Recall from Ultimate Combat, too.
That's pretty awesome if you can get it to land, but has absolutely nothing to do with Disruptive/Spellbreaker. It applies when your melee attack disrupts their spellcasting--that basically has to be a readied action, and it has to hit hard enough to actually disrupt it. Oh, and it means you have to forgo using Spellcombat that round, because a readied action is Standard, not Full.
I don't think Disruptive or Spellbreaker are worth taking for anyone, but I think they're especially lousy for a Magus.
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mpl, to look at it objectively, you need to think about who it will be used against.
And the answer isn't hyper optimized PC spellcasters.
I think these feats aren't about what they do as much as how you use them.
Taking Disruptive, Spellbreaker and Step-up together makes you pretty much "it" in a spellcaster game of tag. Your job isn't so much to destroy the spellcasters as it is to make them run away from you. If you can combine those feats with some summoned monsters or mobile allies who can box the spellcasters in for you (and if you have teleport tactics so they can't get away that way) then you're an anti-spellcaster who's pretty good at what he does.
If you can't invest that many feats and allies into helping you than its still useful if only because you're a threat. Spellcasters, to do their job right, must risk either failing their spells or getting an attack of opportunity as they escape your threat range.
Sometimes good tactics is about limiting your opponent's options so he has to what you want him to do. These two feats, especially the more feats and allies you add into the mix, are about forcing the enemy spellcasters to spend their turns, spells and energy running away from you instead of blasting your allies.
And that, in the hands of the right character, can make them a good investment.
mpl, to look at it objectively, you need to think about who it will be used against.
And the answer isn't hyper optimized PC spellcasters.
Hmm. Ok, what sort of opposition is likely? I guess I'm not in the correct mindset--when I've run D&D in the past, I always used at least 90% humanoid enemies with class levels (and the rest were non-humanoids with class levels).
I'm honestly utterly unfamiliar with the Bestiary--I've never used a Monster Manual (I always custom built opposition), but I admit I assumed enemy spellcasters would all be of the humanoid+class levels sort.
(Hyper-optimized) = [(Maxed out casting stats) + (Combat Casting)]
Wait, taking a feat almost every spellcaster takes and putting an 18 (Not the max, the max would be 20 because of racial bonuses) in the only stat that really matters to your class is being hyper-optimized?
Also, I pointed out that the feats still suck after level 10ish, even without the caster having Combat Casting.
My goal here was to make the character something of a "mage-hunter" combatant, someone who could move right in, and take other spellcasters down. I allready have "Combat reflexes" built in to the build...
I'll have to take a look at "Step up" as it sounds like it would be usefull in the mix.....
My goal here was to make the character something of a "mage-hunter" combatant, someone who could move right in, and take other spellcasters down. I allready have "Combat reflexes" built in to the build...
I'll have to take a look at "Step up" as it sounds like it would be usefull in the mix.....
The best way to stop a spellcaster from casting is to kill them really fast. Barring that...
If you can wait until 10th level, you can get Arcana Theft as your 4th level spell. That's really your best anti-caster power, because it's a touch attack, meaning you can use it with Spellstrike. It's generally cheaper and easier (since you don't need to spend blindly beforehand) to recall the spell than it is to use the Dispelling Strike Arcana, especially when you hit 11th.
Otherwise, your best anti-caster bet is either the Lingering Pain arcana, if you can hit hard enough for the continuous damage check to be difficult, or the Maneuver Mastery Arcana and choose Grapple--casting while grappled is nearly impossible if you've got a good CMB (and their CMB is almost certainly sucky enough that you can easily cast your touch spells on them while you're grappling).
(Hyper-optimized) = [(Maxed out casting stats) + (Combat Casting)]Wait, taking a feat almost every spellcaster takes and putting an 18 (Not the max, the max would be 20 because of racial bonuses) in the only stat that really matters to your class is being hyper-optimized?
Also, I pointed out that the feats still suck after level 10ish, even without the caster having Combat Casting.
Now toss it on a Brawler fighter. Hilarity will ensue.
Keep in mind that not every spellcaster is a fully buffed out wizard. You have to figure in spell like abilities from critters or minor spellcasters. Not every spellcaster you face is going to have all that you described all or even most of the time.