althen artren wrote: Wow, this part of the forums really are dead. Nooot quiiiiiite...
This is a cool thread. I'm disappointed it took me this long to run into it. Maure/MFA is my favorite GH series and it was great when RJK donated thr additional Warlock's Walk to Oerth Journal several years ago. Seeing this clever bit of detective work really stoked the old memories, thanks!
Ok uncle, I have tried again.
No delivery failure notice, thats a good sign.
Hmm. I am not receiving your emails. Althen. Please contact Grodog again and make sure he gave you the correct address.
As for the hope that MC would be published professionally, I do wish that folks would read my prior posts and understand that the possibility of that is zero to none. WotC controls all trademarks and copyrights (WoG and MC) and I am 99.99% sure they would not grant me those licenses.
So pleased to see recent activity here including contributions from Uncle, outstanding! The idea of different folks with the same information coming to different 'conclusions' is spot on.
My own theory was rather less well developed than Althens but to keep the conversation going and prove the above point I thought I'd share it.
I thought that 'Y' being an alphabet reference was too straight forward for Uncle and it got me thinking about the possibility of a symbolic reference. Specifically a horn type symbol which in turn got me thinking about Devils.
That possibility might explain Malchantets wrath with Uncle? I then tried to find out about non canon Devils (as Y was not canon) which took me to an article called 'The politics of Hell' in Dragon issue 28 which isn't considered canon. It talked about a Devil who could travel in time and who, according to Dragon 42, created possessor devils (see Elluvia picture ref).
This led to my theory that Y was..................................
Satan.
Now having said that my theory fell down as it didn't, amongst other thing's, have a link to the need for Dalt or a link to a herald.
But I have to confess the exercise of pursuing my line of enquiry was no less enjoyable for that fact!
Look forward to visiting again and hearing what happens next.
Well, i did contact Grodog and the email match. I give up. Must not be meant to be.
@Althen,
We even checked our spam folder and your messages are not there. ??
Just forward through grodog's mail for now and he will send them on to me. However, I cannot guarantee immediate movement on this beyond a preliminary outline stage as I am currently doing a lot of research/writing for a very involved non-fiction book. Probably best to discuss all in a Q&A by phone with you taking notes. There's also another chap--"Luz" at Canonfire who you should contact, as he has shown recent interest in this as well. Get his email from Grodog. Perhaps a prelim ordering of ideas between you two would partially guide the future Q&A??
@Gregos: Nice to know that the mystery bug is chewing at your own fringes! Sure, it's about making lemonade out of lemons at this point, but there's value via mental deduction in that as well. Everyone loves a mystery.
Ok, well, I will find time and coordinate with the wife when I will be able to call, and try to get ahold of this LUZ at Canonfire. Will contact in the future.
althen artren wrote: Ok, well, I will find time and coordinate with the wife when I will be able to call, and try to get ahold of this LUZ at Canonfire. Will contact in the future. Not necessary to go to CF! Althen, and I'd love to collaborate on expanding Maure Castle if you'd like a co-pilot. Please feel free to contact me.
They do indeed Uncle, they do indeed! Good luck to Althen and Luz, look forward to seeing this move on.
Althen, Luz---
Feel free to email me again and I'll pass along both to Rob again :D
Allan.
grodog@gmail.com
messy wrote: Rob Kuntz wrote: eloquently-phrased bad news. the beauty with which your prose delivers bad tidings only makes them more painful to hear, uncle. nonetheless, i remain a grateful fan, evermore. How goes this then? Will unanswered questions have to remain as such?
Wow, you go away and forget about MC for a while and just as I'm about to go back and use it in anger some guys are posting here and tapping Rob for information! More than that they're talking about a fan-version of MC! Well, count me in! Rob kindly let me run Warlock's Walk for Gencon in the UK more than a few years ago now and even more kindly gave me a writing credit on the WW version published on the OJ (even though I had precious little to do with it!); he even gave me a name check earlier in this thread :)
@grodog - if I mail you at the address given above can I get in on this project too? Whilst I too am a little intimidated by trying to match Rob's bizarre (and I mean that in a good way) & powerful imagination, I am willing to have a go (particularly if Rob can give us the odd steer).
@althern - I had a similar e-mail exchange with Rob a few years back about the true nature of Y: we came to similar conclusions :)
Day Tripper wrote: Wow, you go away and forget about MC for a while and just as I'm about to go back and use it in anger some guys are posting here and tapping Rob for information! More than that they're talking about a fan-version of MC! Well, count me in! Rob kindly let me run Warlock's Walk for Gencon in the UK more than a few years ago now and even more kindly gave me a writing credit on the WW version published on the OJ (even though I had precious little to do with it!); he even gave me a name check earlier in this thread :) I was at GenCon and played WW. I had a blast.
My players won't let their characters go after I finish up Red Hand of Doom. After the Istivin Trilogy from Dungeons 117-119 (they're in Sterich now, so it fits), I'll have them tackle MC.
It might be a while off, though, we're taking a break soon (I've DM'd over a year straight, now) for a spot of Traveller.
meomwt wrote: I was at GenCon and played WW. I had a blast.
I remember - you still in Southport (ah, the old home town...)?
I'm taking up the DM gauntlet with my players soon and MC is likely to feature (I'm dipping in for a specific purpose but it might interest the PCs enough to explore some more). They are in Furyondy at the moment after a short visit to Iuz (Iuz the Evil adventure - it was nasty).
I'm blogging about recent gaming experiences if anyone is interested and will no doubt talk about MC in due course.
Not heard from anyone about the MC fan-version mooted above... Anyone...?
Some interesting tidbits dropped by Rob in an article entitled "Advent of the Elder Ones: Mythos vs. Man in the Lake Geneva Original Campaign, 1973-1976", which is published in AFS#2, in case folks aren't aware of this new old-school publication. Details @ http://hallsoftizunthane.blogspot.com/
Allan.
An update:
As I was getting real close to getting out of gaming for good, an opportunity has come up. I have been asked by a friend to be one of his designers in a world setting of his creation that is to be published. I am sorry that I got everybody excited, and that several people starting looking for a fan driven continuation. I will say this,
if I turn out to put out quality material for this upcoming new game world, I will revisit this at a later date, for right now I doubt my ability to provide as good as material as Rob has done over the years. Also, talking over the telephone is not a good way for me to communicate with anybody. So, if there are others that want to continue working on fan based material, do so. Maybe someday in the future, I will be able to meet with Uncle for a major sit down and hammer ideas event and have enough confidence in my work to tackle such a treasure that Maure Castle has become. Just want to inform all gentle readers. Godspeed.
I realize this thread has been dead for awhile but it's not like necroing a thread is a crime, right? I just wanted to say that while Yog-Sothoth is also my first guess (pretty much along the same reason as the OP, mainly due to the Silver Key), two other possibilities include Yuggoth (if it's not just a planet...? Which it may not be) and Y'golonac, who is also an (albeit less-known) Old One. Also his (?) "portfolio" seems to overlap rather well with the Maure family's personality <<
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I'd like to put my two coppers worth into this discussion. Ive been playing greyhawk now for 22 years. I actually stumbled upon this blog recently looking for info for my own campaign that is a compilation of modules and my own stuff. Anyway, on to my coppers: i read both of generic villian and arten's posts and great work by both, but i think everyone has missed a critical point that RJK tried to allude to on several occasions, and that is TIME. When looking at things on the surface we have seen through the eyes of our characters as if they were reading things un real time. But that is incorrect. Here is a timeline I came up with using the Hisrory of Oerth from the OJ's and the dates provided in the maure adventures : 5069SD (-447CY) Slerotin creates tunnel in the Crystalmists.
5069-5102SD (-447to-414CY) Slerotin's apprentices establish Maure Castle; create 8pointed star and leave oerth.
5102-5152SD (-414to-364CY) Chamber of Antiquities (level 6) created by Afelbain; Statuary (level 7) created; Afelbain joyous that he witnessed Uncle summon "the prince. Dread talons, 7times making 7passes. Earth trembled and obeyed."
5152-5802SD (-364 to 286CY) levels 8-18 completed.
5249SD (-267CY)Tanilar Kreel, a cultist of the Cult of the Long Shadows,scrawls message before he dies "they know not what they anger"; the Purple Stone tried to subvert all the cults and the Maures; Maures raise the Unopenable Doors.
5202SD (-14CY) Lower levels sealed.
5516-5766SD (1-250CY) Uncle and Vexus have dealings with Rauxes.
5752SD (236CY) Vexus dealing with Duchy of Urnst.
5802SD (286CY) Vexus's repository updated.
Now, what do we know/hypothesize: Uncle summoned the prince early on. If this was Y, then why the need for Dalt later? And all of the extensive rituals to summon one who is already here?
Who or what wanted to destroy the Maures and why?
From the notes from Elluvia to Bersteck, we find that 1. Bersteck had possessions of the Scythe of Yenoghuu, and 2. Elluvia gained possession of it.
Elluvia had unwanted attention from family members.
Orcus was once a servant to Tharizdun.
Why was Afelbain's death depicted in Orcus's painting?
Area 16 of the Greater Halls shows that there were once paintings there. Were they moved to the paintings room? Why?
How did Uncle get to the Lost City of Elders?
Afelbain alludes to something that Elluvia can give Uncle that will make him relent when she wants to create her pit. I believe this is the Book of Dead Names.
NOW FOR THE PAYOFF: Y and the HE in the note about "pray tha the boy is successful so that HE may come, are two differnt beings. Y may be yog sothoth sothoth as surmised in artens post, but I believe him to be a red herring, a fake. Uncle has been around longer than any of the other Maures. He sets up a false god to hide the fact that he secretly worships tharizdun. He obtains the Tome of the Black Heart and summons Kerzit (the prince that Afelbain witnessed being summoned). In the early goings, Dalt was summoned as an unknowing dupe to aid in the illusion that yog sothoth was their god. Convincing Dalt of the same, they send him to supposedly break yog free, but in fact, it was Tharizdun that Uncle wanted to summon to help them destroy the fiends of Rauxes. At the time of the Maures fall, the Great Kingdom was on the move,taking over all around. Their power was much more than Vex surmised. Was that due to Xaenes arrival from another dimension? Hmm. Yea Vex was trying to get in Elluvias pants, but his was the way of gifts and honeyed words (aftr all, he was a merchant and rogue), but it was Bersteck, Elluvias real uncle, who took on thw role of her rapist. Hence overwhelming anger that pours forth when she has the magic mouth scream "Die, Bersteck!" Oh, and by the way, her method of carrying out her excution attempt is the clue to what Malcanthet had her southern attentions on. Elluvia kept stringing Vex along, dangling the goods but never allowing a taste, putty in her hands, gaining information about Uncle until the time was right to strike, then usung his want for hwr as leverage to have him help her in the coup. The picture of Dalt being led by her is correct, she to was misled and deceived by Fraz. So, what happened to Dalt and why was hus painting defaced you ask? The paintings are gates of a sort. They allow access, both ways, to the demon depicted. But they lose their magical properties if destroyed. So by destroying Dalts painting is to close the gate thereby stranding Dalt. Who then, would know that it was Tharizdun and not Yog that would also not want him coming? Malcanthet. Hers was the claws that rent the painting. Berstecks comment "Curse Vex for hus greed was referring to his involvemnt with Rauxes, as he became a turncoat once seeing the true power of the great kingdom and seeing his gain by switching sides,hence the other reason he helped Elluvia summon Malcanthet.
By the way, this also explains the reason there are paintings of Kerzit and Shan Duan mixed in with the others. Now for the proof/link: I finally received my copy of Dark Druids in the mail today. It deals with thw Dark God (as Tharizdun is also known as). On page 43, the list of the Dark quest Series, part 3 is titled Black Heart (as in Tome of the).
THE END.
Thanks for your time reading my ramblings.
Greyhawk lives on! Always!
Of course, I also ran across a thread titled Abandoned Chapel of Dalt?http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=14649 where someone mentions to RJK about a Randall Flag avatar connection, so I looked up Flagg and saw an avatar named Nyarlathotep. Looking him up, come to find out that the priest of Leng, who RJK said is who Mordy got the silver key from in his original works, had a silver key, was known as the High Priest Not to be Described, and was an Elder Hierophant. Nyarlathotep has many forms/avatars: the Crawling Mist from the Dreamlands (the Elder Eye floated above its sleeping owner and invaded his dreams), Messenger of the Old Ones, etc. Now as the summoning of Y is always preceded by his unnamed servant, could Dalt be said servant...ie. Nyarlathotep? Other items of note from the Dungeon Maure adventures: the Dalt painting and Fraz's painting both describe Dalt as having olive skin. In the Guide to the World of Greyhawk describes Oeridians as having olive skin. Dalt is shown to have robes with the symbol if Fharlangn. Also throughout the modules there is mention and/or signs of Fhar and his brother Celestian,who are Oeridian gods. I find it interesting that in a place of Suel mages, that you would find evidence of another culture's deities. In another thread somewhere it states that Fraz at one time corrupted druidic rituals to include human sacrifice. An entire sect of nature gods was debased,hence their relocation from Concordant Opposition to the border with the Abyss. Could this be the Elder Gods (who I personally believe to be Hierophant druids) .
Another possibility about dalt: being that Dalt was supposedly "absorbed by Y", and mordy found an abandoned temple to him, could perhaps the unnamed high priest of Leng have been the one to have absorbed Dalt, so that now Dalt is actually Nyarlathotep/priest of Leng?
grodog wrote: Some interesting tidbits dropped by Rob in an article entitled "Advent of the Elder Ones: Mythos vs. Man in the Lake Geneva Original Campaign, 1973-1976", which is published in AFS#2, in case folks aren't aware of this new old-school publication. Details @ http://hallsoftizunthane.blogspot.com/
Recently reprinted on Facebook by Rob @ https://www.facebook.com/threelinestudio/posts/2842385839126862
Allan.
Morning One and All!
My own thoughts on the identity of 'Y', and perhaps a definitive answer.
I have been play D&D for nearly 40 years, and can remember the halycon days when AD&D was launched upon us to the delight of my friends and I, and can remember the marvels of WG5 Mordekaninen's Adventure, but never bothered my players with Castle Maure until the Dungeon release. As the identity of 'Y' is centre to the Maure family history, I have been conducting my own research based on the excellent work done by althen artren, and have come up with this enticing theory. Bear with ...
One of the original hardback AD&D books was Deities & Demigods with the first edition of that particular book having the Melnibonean and Cthulhu Mythos (which were subsequently removed following the revelation that Chaosium had the rights to these for gaming purposes). Amongst the descriptions that appeared in the book for the Cthulhu Mythos was one entry for an Outer God whose symbol is a 'Y' rune.
And who is this being?
I present to you the Cthulhu Mythos Preeminent Deity of Sorcerers and Wizards, the Key and the Gate, the Opener of the Way, the Tawil at'Umr, - Yooooooog-Sothoth!
And I quite like the idea that the immortal Uncle is some aspect of Nyarlathotep. It makes quite a lot of sense in many ways ...
Zurp Flexitubes wrote: Morning One and All!
My own thoughts on the identity of 'Y', and perhaps a definitive answer.
I have been play D&D for nearly 40 years, and can remember the halycon days when AD&D was launched upon us to the delight of my friends and I, and can remember the marvels of WG5 Mordekaninen's Adventure, but never bothered my players with Castle Maure until the Dungeon release. As the identity of 'Y' is centre to the Maure family history, I have been conducting my own research based on the excellent work done by althen artren, and have come up with this enticing theory. Bear with ...
One of the original hardback AD&D books was Deities & Demigods with the first edition of that particular book having the Melnibonean and Cthulhu Mythos (which were subsequently removed following the revelation that Chaosium had the rights to these for gaming purposes). Amongst the descriptions that appeared in the book for the Cthulhu Mythos was one entry for an Outer God whose symbol is a 'Y' rune.
And who is this being?
I present to you the Cthulhu Mythos Preeminent Deity of Sorcerers and Wizards, the Key and the Gate, the Opener of the Way, the Tawil at'Umr, - Yooooooog-Sothoth!
And I quite like the idea that the immortal Uncle is some aspect of Nyarlathotep. It makes quite a lot of sense in many ways ...
Awesome! I don't own that copy of Deities...check out my blog here named YOG-SOTHOTH.
I actually found an interesting reference the other day. Probably means nothing, but "Although he was usually represented with an eye engraved in a purple disk, older manifestations could take shape in the form of a "Y". Said symbol could appear as a demonstration of favor or could be found in ancient spaces devoted to the Lord of Slime." This is in reference to Ghaunadaur and you might say that deity is unknown on Oerth. You'd be right, except that Ghaunadaur has other identities- the demon lord Jubilex, as well as being at least one of the entities claiming to be the Elder Elemental God. I'm not sure I really buy it, but something to talk about, huh?
Dungeon Master Zack wrote: I actually found an interesting reference the other day. Probably means nothing, but "Although he was usually represented with an eye engraved in a purple disk, older manifestations could take shape in the form of a "Y". Said symbol could appear as a demonstration of favor or could be found in ancient spaces devoted to the Lord of Slime." This is in reference to Ghaunadaur and you might say that deity is unknown on Oerth. You'd be right, except that Ghaunadaur has other identities- the demon lord Jubilex, as well as being at least one of the entities claiming to be the Elder Elemental God. I'm not sure I really buy it, but something to talk about, huh? Where is that reference from?
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ghaunadaur
Under "Manifestations."
Can we get Uncle to just finally answer the question of 'who is Y'? I'd like to know the answer at some point during my lifetime...
I for one would go absolutely *Bonkers* for the answer to the identity of Y.
.
That being said, however, Y has just been "Y" in my gaming-setting cosmology for so many decades that, if we all the sudden found out Y has been, for example, Abraxas or Pyremius all this time -- it could be very unsettling. I mean, for my games, Y rules the 53rd Layer of the Abyss and, in one campaign probably 20 years ago, a major BBEG was a Priest of both Y and Anthraxus, kind of a homebrew combo. (Gosh, that was 2nd Ed -- I'm getting Old.)
Still waiting.... Uncle!....
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