Andor the Wise's page

I actually found an interesting reference the other day. Probably means nothing, but "Although he was usually represented with an eye engraved in a purple disk, older manifestations could take shape in the form of a "Y". Said symbol could appear as a demonstration of favor or could be found in ancient spaces devoted to the Lord of Slime." This is in reference to Ghaunadaur and you might say that deity is unknown on Oerth. You'd be right, except that Ghaunadaur has other identities- the demon lord Jubilex, as well as being at least one of the entities claiming to be the Elder Elemental God. I'm not sure I really buy it, but something to talk about, huh?

Where is that reference from?

Morning One and All!

My own thoughts on the identity of 'Y', and perhaps a definitive answer.

I have been play D&D for nearly 40 years, and can remember the halycon days when AD&D was launched upon us to the delight of my friends and I, and can remember the marvels of WG5 Mordekaninen's Adventure, but never bothered my players with Castle Maure until the Dungeon release. As the identity of 'Y' is centre to the Maure family history, I have been conducting my own research based on the excellent work done by althen artren, and have come up with this enticing theory. Bear with ...

One of the original hardback AD&D books was Deities & Demigods with the first edition of that particular book having the Melnibonean and Cthulhu Mythos (which were subsequently removed following the revelation that Chaosium had the rights to these for gaming purposes). Amongst the descriptions that appeared in the book for the Cthulhu Mythos was one entry for an Outer God whose symbol is a 'Y' rune.

And who is this being?

I present to you the Cthulhu Mythos Preeminent Deity of Sorcerers and Wizards, the Key and the Gate, the Opener of the Way, the Tawil at'Umr, - Yooooooog-Sothoth!

And I quite like the idea that the immortal Uncle is some aspect of Nyarlathotep. It makes quite a lot of sense in many ways ...

Awesome! I don't own that copy of Deities...check out my blog here named YOG-SOTHOTH.

Okay - I finally have had the chance to look at Dungeon 112, and the information scattered within tells the following story (page references refer to Dungeon issue 112, July 2004):

A thousand years ago, the ancient Suel Mage of Power Slerotin died shortly after enabling 11 Suel tribes to flee the Twin Cataclysms. Eight of his apprentices formed House Maure (pp.12). They created the eight-pointed star in the entrance corridor of the new dungeon complex which they had presumably had constructed, then left everything in the hands of a group of their apprentices, whom they had initiated as masters of House Maure, and left for other planes of existance (pp. 20). Maure subjects would visit the first level of the dungeon's Chamber of Offerings and what is now known as the Throne/Statue area for worship and entertainment. They lounged around and were pretty debauched and did what they could to curry favour with the early Maure Leaders by leaving offerings to them (pp. 20). Four ancient Suel cults (The Cults of Silver Dreams, Malcanthet, Long Shadows and the Purple Stone) took up residence within the second level of the dungeon complex (pp. 32). When the Cult of the Purple Stone tried to subvert the other cults, along with the Masters of House Maure, the Maures responded by sealing all those within the dungeon complex behind the Unopenable Doors and leaving them to rot (pp. 32).

The third level of the dungeon complex was created by Eli Tomerast 37 years ago from a small network of natural caverns (pp. 52).

The only confusion arises with the statement that the Unopenable Doors were raised 'many decades ago' (pp. 32). However the introduction to the Statuary level states that the doors were sealed 'more than 600 years ago' (pp. 71). I'm happy to go with the latter, as 600 years technically is 'many decades'. =)

Okay. Useful only to the obsessive, I know, but there it is. The 'side dungeon' was most likely created in parallel with the rest of the Maure environs back in the early says of the Suel's...

I believe the "decades" was in error, and it should have been "centuries". On page 44, in room 47, it actually gives a date of approx. when the doors were sealed...5249 SD. That's -267CY, which, in 591(I'm assuming this is the date of the adventure-25 years ago when Mordenkainen was here would put them here in 566) would mean the doors were sealed 858 years ago. I've created a timeline of sorts. Just contact me if you're interested.

Been reading through "The Greater Halls" again recently, and find this line of discussion quite interesting! Will ponder further :D

Also worth noting: https://www.facebook.com/threelinestudio/posts/2842385839126862

Allan.

Hope it sparks something great!

Andor the Wise wrote:

Killer_GM wrote:

So have you settled the debate of who Y is, and who his superior is?

~KGM

No. Until Rob comes out and says so, everything is speculation.

Rob's article from AFS#2 will help answer those Qs, and he just shared it on Facebook today: see https://www.facebook.com/threelinestudio/posts/2842385839126862

Alan.

Unfortunately, reading that was like listening to a medical professor give a diatribe on the anatomy of a cockatoo when all you wanted was to know the best thing to take for heartburn. I must be on a level FAR below that of RJK. Q's ...for my part...STILL not answered. Guess it doesn't help I've never read anything by Lovecraft or Clark Ashton Smith.

Killer_GM wrote:

So have you settled the debate of who Y is, and who his superior is?

~KGM

No. Until Rob comes out and says so, everything is speculation.

Right now, I'm leaning on:

I have been trying to work these subtle clues out for years - and hadn't even thought of your second way of looking at the question.

Thanks for moving things forward again!

Reggie

My pleasure! This is the best mystery I have ever encountered. It is always at the verge of my mind. I wish these forums were more active now, so that ideas could be shared.

But this is pure conjecture on my part.

Rob Kuntz wrote:

infomatic wrote:

Who’s Ill? And why did the Maures consider her a threat?

What is ILL looking for?

this question doesn't seem to have been addressed. so she's looking for the three origin temples. i don't remember these being mentioned anywhere else. help?

while we're on the subject of that note, the crystals of sooth are a mystery, too. help?

I believe the three origin temples to be those in the Amedio Jungle. In Living Greyhawk there are 3 ruined cities, Tomochan being one. I don't know if all 3 were in the Savage Tide, but someone in this post mentioned that Malcanthet had her eyes far south and alluded to it being the Amedio.

As far as the Crystals of Sooth...as far as I can tell, they are probably some sort of way of safely travelling the current.

Andor the Wise wrote:

2) what is she doing in the picture?

There are TWO ways to read this...

A) what is she DOING in the picture
B) what is SHE doing in the picture

you sir, have lived up to your name.

all this time i was reading it as version a. by pointing out version b you've opened up a can of worms.

you get a cookie.

Yum mum num num, me love cookies!

So have you settled the debate of who Y is, and who his superior is?

~KGM

No. Until Rob comes out and says so, everything is speculation.

Succubus.net/wiki states that an article in Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss says the following:

Malcanthet's greatest enemy is Yeenoghu with whom she regularly sends armies against and vice versa. The source of their conflict is said to be uncertain, but seems to be related to the Maures family of wizards. Among the Maures, Malcanthet’s greatest servant was a woman named Elluvia, but her family as a whole served Yeenoghu. When Elluvia attempted to take control, with Malcanthet’s support, a magical catastrophe occurred. Since that time, Malcanthet and Yeenoghu have been at war. She also is at odds with Graz’zt. She claims that she spurned Graz’zt for being unworthy of her, and Graz’zt claims the reverse. Ever since they have been scheming against each other on how best to upset and ruin the other’s realms and plans.

So, if this is true, then Elluvia is Elluvia. BUT even though she is Malcanthet's greatest servant, perhaps the Wee Jas causing the magical catastrophe because of HER servant (Elluvia) planning what she was? Just a thought.

Perhaps Elluvia is NOT WEE JAS, just her servant, and the illos was just to give that clue.

My thoughts on WHY Wee Jas would destroy the Maures....look no further than Aradnotep(spelling?). That priestess was one of her own. Think what she would do to someone who was WILLINGLY trying to destroy the ELDERS.

2) what is she doing in the picture?

There are TWO ways to read this...

A) what is she DOING in the picture
B) what is SHE doing in the picture

Notice the difference? It completely changes the meaning.

Up till recently, I was reading version A. Which made no sense to me. Ummm... she's staring. Which caused me to try and see WHAT she was staring at...which led to more confusion. Actually, for the longest time, I just read over that comment, not even putting it into the identification bank.

When I read version B, I was like WOW. A whole line of questioning opened up. The painting in the illos was of a red-haired, GREEN eyed female...the only RED-haired female in the actual paintings was Wee Jas...but she has DARK eyes...NOT green. As pointed out earlier, Malcanthet has black hair, AND doesn't even have a painting. So....WHY did the artist render ELLUVIA as one of the paintings?

My first thought was "she IS Wee Jas." But then I remembered RJK answering that the red-haired woman was NOT Wee Jas. UNLESS...( this JUST came to me), Elluvia IS Wee Jas. RJK's answer was ACTUALLY to the question "who was the red-haired lady in the series of scenes" (which RJK described as a vortexual memory cycle. Sooooo...WHAT IF...the "Elluvia" in the cycle WASN'T actually her? It LOOKED like her, but remember that shadow that left her...what if (and I don't know if he has this ability or not) FRAZ, being the deceiver and all...changed his appearance to make it LOOK as if it was Elluvia ...after all...it was HIS painting the memory cycle was in! Talk about Prince of Deception!

OK, this is a lot of conjecture, with little to back it up.

I'll start with posting what RJK has said about her on these and other threads (that I've found...if there has been more, please add):

James Jacobs Creative Director
Sep 16, 2006, 12:27 am
| FLAG | LIST | REPLY
+
James Jacobs
Most of those questions are intentionally left up in the air for now. But as for the missing Malcanthet picture... I asked Rob about this myself and he ponited out something intereting... the hall only contains portraits of allies to the Maure Family. Malcanthet is Elluvia's patron, certainly, but neither of them are allies to the family overall.

Rob Kuntz Contributor
Sep 16, 2006, 04:36 pm
| FLAG | LIST | REPLY
2 people marked this as a favorite. +
infomatic wrote:
Why doesn’t Malcanthet get a portrait? Y hates her, I realize, but half the subjects in the room seem to hate the other half, anyway (Orcus/Demogorgon/Grazz’t, Yeenoghu/Baphomet, etc.)
James answered this in part, but I'll also point out that the family was composed of individuals which had their own distinct powers and allies. When saying that the family had allies, it is only true because, in some cases, one of the individuals had gone the distance in attaining that ally and thus became the family's benefactor in that respect, and probably the one who would act as the family's intermediary with that "ally," the others being known to that Ally as a just faceless "Maure."

Rob Kuntz Contributor
Sep 21, 2006, 11:09 pm
| FLAG | LIST | REPLY
+
infomatic wrote:

• The Red-haired woman: There's a similar woman (red hair, green eyes) described in the entry with the "favorite niece" inscription. I'm not sure if there's ever been a description of Elluvia; she'd be a key suspect, I suppose.
Well, he gave it to his niece, so he must be the Uncle (or an Uncle), note that it notes "Favorite," indicating also that there is at least one brother, whoever that is, heh?

Allen Stewart
Oct 4, 2006, 11:36 pm
| FLAG | LIST | REPLY
+
Malyas' Shield
Uncle,
We're eagerly awaiting the Family Crypts. Will we find Uncle Maure down in the family crypts? Can he be aided or restored to health/life by altrustic PC's, (and GM's)?

In the familiar tune of 'where's Waldo', Where's Elluvia Maure? Is she still hanging around on some obscure outer plane? Inquiring minds want to know...

Rob Kuntz Contributor
Oct 5, 2006, 04:26 pm
| FLAG | LIST | REPLY
+
Allen--

Elluvia. Well, I hope someone puts 2 and 2 together on this woman, as she's part of one of the major plots, and the one which was "unexpected."

Indeed, where are all of the Maures now? We know of Aflebain, and since the ID Core still funstions that suggests taht some are still alive, eh?

infomatic wrote:
Shad-Duan – no mention of this guy anywhere, that I can tell, though given his name and title he may have a connection with the Cult of the Long Shadow. Is he the shadow figure that was attached to the red-haired woman (Wee Jas?)
Try page 93 of DUNGEON #112, Tome of the Black Heart for Sha-Duan.

Th red-haired woman is not Wee-Jas, far from it. The hair color is only a hint at the relationship this woman holds with another not of the family (big hint, note the illos in the issue for this). What is she doing in the picture?

Now, that last response from RJK, to me, is the biggest answer to who Elluvia is.
When I first read this, I misinterpreted 2 things: the hair color, and what is she doing in the picture.

1) hair color...up until Dragon 353, there wasn't any description of Malcanthet. I assumed, based on the artist rendering of the giant succubus,being that she had red hair, that Malcanthet did also. Even after obtaining the Dragon issue and seeing Malcanthet with black hair...I failed to put 2&2 together...or apart in this instance. If her hair color was a clue to the relationship she had with another NON-Maure...(another KEY word...ANOTHER), then WHO is this OTHER red-haired person? The only one I can think of is WEE JAS. No, Elluvia wasn't WEE JAS, but she served her. Perhaps WEE JAS was the cause of the MAGICAL catastrophe that happened?
Now, back to the ANOTHER comment. It could be saying Malcanthet and ANOTHER...OR....it could mean ELLUVIA is not a Maure (by blood).

Berstek's comment about hoping Y absorbs him like he did Dalt... Berstek is more than likely talking about Vex. This comment , I think, is based on ignorance (refer back to Uncle being the only one to actually SEE Yog).
Since no one but Uncle can see Yog (kind of like the Hebrew high priest being the only one allowed in the holy of holies), then everyone has to rely on what Uncle tells them. Thus, when the Unnamed Servant possesses Dalt, Berstek assumes (or was told) it was Y.

Also, while I think one or more of the Maures tried to set Tharizdun free, I think this was a different plot line (RJK said there were many plot lines happening).

The main reason I don't think Nyarlathotep has anything to do with Maure Castle, unless he is the Unnamed servant that inhabited Dalt, is that, unlike the other Outer gods, he is free to roam the Prime Material...he don't NEED to be summoned/ set free.

Y's Master is NOT Nyarlathotep. I thought at one point he might be Y, RJK alluded to him possibly being Dalt (not Maure version) as shown in the following Abandoned Chapel of Dalt thread:

I will not now admit what god or being Dalt was, mainly for the reason that that material is being retreated in "Maure Castle" (Dungeon 112, 124, and those to follow) and there may be a link at some point back to the key and Dalt, such is the way I design. Opener of the way is not a bad start but Hastur is way off course. There is one I was very fond of who went in guise and exposed secrets... BIG HINT, though I will never admit to a true guess.

Per WIKI, YOG-SOTHOTH:

1) Sees all & knows all.
2) To see yog or learn too much about yog is to cause disaster.
3) The favor of YOG requires a human sacrifice or eternal servitude.
4) YOG-SOTHOTH knows the gate.
YOG-SOTHOTH is the gate.
YOG-SOTHOTH is the key and guardian of the gate.
5) Past, present, and future...all are one in YOG-SOTHOTH.
6) YOG's name is part of n incantation that can revive the dead.

AVATARS OF YOG:

1) Aforgomon: god of time
A) He manipulates time and space
B) always accompanied by a blinding light.

2) Umr At-Tawil
A) presides over the timeless halls beyond the Gate of the Silver Key and the Ancient Ones.

Thoughts based on this information (per # above)...

1) any wizard wants to know as much as possible, so who better to seek information from

2) is it possible that, IF Yog was the Maures' deity, only Uncle had ever seen him? Much power for the only person who
can come face to face with a god...many variations of power.

3) Uncle has been around longer than any of the Maures' (supposedly). He could be the eternal servant. Aflebain could be another...he stated he wouldn't mind "the thousands or tens of thousands of years ahead of him." The altar of bone could be the "human sacrifice" needed.

4) YOG-SOTHOTH is NOT the Opener of the Way...the GATE is ALL of TIME. He is the Maures' access to time travel/manipulation.

5) Yog's name is part of the formula that will/has revived Uncle.

6) Aforgomon- they needed this aspect to access the Current.
Umr At-Tawil- they needed this aspect to gain access to the Ancient Ones (Elders?)

Dragon 359 commented on who Y was. The following is basically a step summary of that...

Step 1) Call forth Unnamed Servant, who then inhabits an Immortal body to assist Servants of Y.

Step 2) Summon Y

Step 3) Summon Y's Master (who may or may not be the Primal Power that the family intended on summoning at all costs) via a complicated ritual which requires manipulating space and time to achieve.

Now, having said all of this...conclusions:

1) YOG-SOTHOTH is Y. He's their main deity for the purpose of time manipulation. HOWEVER, he is NOT the HE they prayed the boy would summon.

2) Dalt is obviously"the boy". He is also the Immortal body that the Unnamed Servant inhabits. (Reason for the different appearances in the paintings).

3) Way in the beginning, Uncle offers himself up to eternal servitude to gain Y's favor.

4) Dalt is summoned by the Maures. He is then possessed by the Unnamed servant, and summons Y.

5) the Maures build a temple etc to Y, and assure his service by the building of the bone altar.

6) They piss off the Elders, who are WAY more powerful than they are and are about to be "taught a lesson" by them. So they send Dalt who is wearing a robe festooned with a magical formula that helps in the "complicated ritual" to summon Y's Master.

7) So the REAL question is ...WHO is Y's Master?

Going to be starting several new threads: yog-sothoth, nyarlathotep, high priest not to be described, will the real Dalt please stand up, will the real Elluvia please stand up,eternal servant.

Berstek said "may Y absorb him like he did Dalt!"...this implies Y was already successfully summoned, otherwise Berstek is merely assuming. Given the Maures' time manipulation, or even without it, being that all the clues span a millennium of Oerth real time, could Y have been summoned, and that not have anything to do with the catastrophe? In (I'm assuming) Uncle's note, which was described as ancient, Dalt had already left to summon whoever...the writing implies that the one being summoned was to help Uncle and allies against those Elders who were "aligned against us." It also implies the Elders' animosity against them had something to do with the EYE. Could the EYE be the instrument that allows them to travel the CURRENT? Y having been summoned would explain the pit and sacrifice area FOR Y. If Y HADN'T been summoned by DALT, then why the need for instruments of an already summoned being. Or, if those areas were FOR the purpose of summoning Y, then why the need for Dalt? Also, I believe somewhere it stated that Y didn't like succubi...and would be angry if Elluvia's Pit was close to him....which AGAIN implies Y had been summoned already by the time of that statement.

Hmm... Berstek was "separated by a magical seal"... from whom? the rest of the escaping Maures? If so...is Berstek the ID Core itself?

Another possibility about dalt: being that Dalt was supposedly "absorbed by Y", and mordy found an abandoned temple to him, could perhaps the unnamed high priest of Leng have been the one to have absorbed Dalt, so that now Dalt is actually Nyarlathotep/priest of Leng?

Of course, I also ran across a thread titled Abandoned Chapel of Dalt?http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=14649 where someone mentions to RJK about a Randall Flag avatar connection, so I looked up Flagg and saw an avatar named Nyarlathotep. Looking him up, come to find out that the priest of Leng, who RJK said is who Mordy got the silver key from in his original works, had a silver key, was known as the High Priest Not to be Described, and was an Elder Hierophant. Nyarlathotep has many forms/avatars: the Crawling Mist from the Dreamlands (the Elder Eye floated above its sleeping owner and invaded his dreams), Messenger of the Old Ones, etc. Now as the summoning of Y is always preceded by his unnamed servant, could Dalt be said servant...ie. Nyarlathotep? Other items of note from the Dungeon Maure adventures: the Dalt painting and Fraz's painting both describe Dalt as having olive skin. In the Guide to the World of Greyhawk describes Oeridians as having olive skin. Dalt is shown to have robes with the symbol if Fharlangn. Also throughout the modules there is mention and/or signs of Fhar and his brother Celestian,who are Oeridian gods. I find it interesting that in a place of Suel mages, that you would find evidence of another culture's deities. In another thread somewhere it states that Fraz at one time corrupted druidic rituals to include human sacrifice. An entire sect of nature gods was debased,hence their relocation from Concordant Opposition to the border with the Abyss. Could this be the Elder Gods (who I personally believe to be Hierophant druids) .

3 forge in temple = 3 origin temples.

Being that the Maures tend to be subject to dreams (otherwise current would be the way Druid travel), I'm assuming the current is a way of mind travel or possibly ethereal are astral and by using the crystals while in the state, it's a type of Commune with agents of time?

Now being that Vex "would gladly travel the current to complete the deed" tells me that the current is most likely the astral plane or the time-space continuum.

According to the page Time Travel, a lot of negative energy in a wormhole could cause the Casimir effect, allowing time travel Through the Wormhole so if Berserk left on the current (Wormhole) than his staff mentioned in the Shad Duan painting is the negative energy source needed to open the current.

"We are separated by a magical seal... Impossible! It sounds as if Berstek wrote this last entry right before Escaping The Castle. Now, his journal pages were found in his Workshop. So, where did he enter the current at? What room is close enough that he could have gotten to in time? Or was the portal in his treasure room number 32? Or possibly number 31?

The first stanza appears to be cursing Uncle for his greed. If that's the case what was he greedy for? I've got Vex being the cursed one. It would make more sense that it was Uncle because the last statement assumes he was attacked by Malcanthet, yet it also implies that Berstek was not present during the internment, if it truly was Uncle.

Could the statement read "the formula guards against me" ?

Akashic Record... deep within the astral plane... can observe scenes from any moment from the recent too distant past. Travel to this is incredibly difficult. It abuts the dimension of time. Risk becoming lost in the currents of the dimension of time. Egyptian Book of the Dead. Tibetan Book of the Dead.

More Maure Musings: (this goes in a lot of directions, so please excuse the scatterdness)...

Aflebain and Elluvia are Bro/sis. They represent Roderick/Madeline in FotHoU.

In that, Madeline was entombed alive...is that Elluvia's fate?

Roderick painted. Is Aflebain the artist of the Gallery Paintings?
Aflebain has possession of the scythe of Yeenoghu in his treasure Vault with entire room basically dedicated to Yeenoghu and the Ghoul Lich. Aflebain was a necromancer who housed entire level of Undead. His death was depicted in the painting of Orcus, NOT Yeenoghu. Why? The site gives him Powers over Ghouls and ghasts.

Orcus and Yeenoghu are enemies, because the Ghoul Lich was once loyal to Orcus, then Yeenoghu 'stole'him.

Crystals of Sooth: by using the Crystals of Sooth while upon the Current I discovered a possible future problem generating from one named i l l, who is about investigating the 3 Forge in Temple.

Andor: have you read RJK's article in AFS#2, "Article – Advent of the Elder Ones: Mythos vs. Man in the Lake Geneva Original Campaign, 1973-1976"? It may shed some further light on your thoughts here.

Allan.

Don't have access to it, and according to Day Tripper...it is out of stock.

Wow...and that's Tanilar Kreel...NOT Tabular Steel!

Oops....auto correct error...NOT Ben...Vex.

Dungeon 112 pg.44...5249SD Tabular Steel scrawls message. According to Oerth Journal...5249 SD= -267 CY. Also on pg.44, Purple Stone went bat crazy 853 years ago. So -267 + 853 puts date of module at 586 CY. Pg. 79 has a genealogy of the Duchy of Urnst with records as recent as 350 years ago. 586 - 350= 236CY. Dungeon 124 pg.82-83 says Ben's repository was updated 300 years ago. Sooooo...the LATEST the catastrophe could have happened was 3 centuries.

Andor,

Why is "centuries" since the catastrophe in error? When do you think the catastrophe occurred?

(I DM'd the PCs in my campaign through Maure Castle, Antiquities, Greater Halls, and the 3.5 Warlock's Walk over the last year or so. I was supremely disappointed they weren't more curious about the paintings in the Greater Halls.)

I replied below in the blog. Actually..above and below.

I also am running a current campaign using Maure...and the paintings actually scare the crap out of them. They only interactedvwith the painting of wee has....but not to the point of offering a gift...the rest they want nothing to do with. As to your "centuries" question...scroll up in the blog to a previous post by me...I did a timeline of events from dates given in the Maure adventures...and the "History of Oerth" timeline in the Oerth Journal.

Correction to timeline...
562CY... Fraz-Urb'luu escapes imprisonment from Greyhawk Castle. Being that he was trapped at least 200 years...this would place the year OF his imprisonment somewhere between 320-362 CY...BEFORE Zagig disappears.

Perhaps "the one we do not know" is, in fact, Yog Sothoth. They weren't expecting him....had never met him... therefore didn't recognize him.

So rather than Elluvia thinking she is having Dalt release Y (Yog Sothoth), but him actually going to get Tharizdun...perhaps she turns the deceptive tables on Uncle...and let's them think that's what's happening, but instead either he's off on a wild goose chase... therefore the reason Malcanthet defaces his painting- to strand him...or, Elluvia actually has Dalt getting the "one we do not know."

She smiles...perhaps because it is SHE that is doing the deceiving? Think about it...where is Afelbain? (I keep saying Dalt's painting...but it's actually Fraz-Urb'luu's painting ABOUT Dalt) The only reason to think Fraz-Urb'luu is the shadowy figure...is the prayer. But if the prayer is a ruse...and Fraz-Urb'luu and Elluvia are in fact ALLIES...then perhaps the painting shows them collaborating together to deceive Dalt.

Now, if you ignore the prayer, and go JUST by the second part, then the scene in the painting takes on a different context. Yes Elluvia is showing Dalt where to go, and convincing him to go. And yes, the image shifts to a shadow leaving her and going into the sky. But notice her reaction when Dalt leaves..pg.75 scene 4. "The red-haired woman smiles and turns away. A huge inhuman shape wrapped in darkness rises from her frame as if it had adhered to her Shadow and then vanishes into the skies above."

And they have both friends AND enemies amongst the Elders. Ok...now on to the second part...now we all assume that Dalt was sent to open the way or loose the bindings of something BIG. Some think Yog, some Tharizdun, others think Dalt was deceived into thinking he's going after one and actually freeing the other. But follow what's actually taking place leading up to his departure...1) the boy (Dalt) is to is to allow someone to come that the writer wants to come. 2) Elluvia is to see to it that it happens. 3) AFELBAIN is to follow her and make sure she does what she's supposed to. I

Yet upon further contemplation, I believe the prayer at the bottom to be a Deception...AND a legitimate prayer, penned by Elluvia...NOT the author of the rest of the parchment (which I believe to be Uncle). Let's break down the first part...."The Elders have several of their order aligned against us. We must either return the Eye or ascertain its ancient use." This may or may not have anything to do with the second part about Dalt making way for HE. But what can be assumed here is that they have contact of some sort with the Elders, they either stole or borrowed the Eye..and have yet to figure it out.

In Dungeon 139, pg. 78, Room 12. Star Room, the parchment says "Pray that the boy opens the way so HE may come. My niece is not always the trustworthy sort. Afelbain should follow her to make sure the plan is forwarded without error." And at the bottom, in Abyssal, is an intercessory prayer written in blood "May the Lord of Deception Fraz-Urb'luu grant us our victory." Now like most...I believed this parchment to explain the scene in Dalt's painting...or vice versa.

I've been thinking about Fraz-Urb'luu, and how he fits in all of this lately. In a source it says he debased a sect of druids...basically turning them into Dark Druids. Another source says he was around during the war between the Gods and Primordials. And yet another says he has succubi as values to carry out his deceptions.

Several times in the magazines, it says that several centuries have passed since the fall. This doesn't add up given the known timeline. I'm assuming the writers were stating the centuries thing as fluff..without actually thinking about the timeline. Therefore, unless something else comes along to discount the timeline, I'm assuming those statements to be in error.

I would imagine that over a period of a thousand years...someone would have located at least one...hmm? And who better than the Maure themselves?

More timeline thoughts....the last date I posted was 286 CY...Vexus's Repository updated. This is the last recorded date (to my knowledge) before the catastrophe struck. Adding to this timeline is the following:
320 CY..Zagig begins construction of Castle Greyhawk.
420 CY...Zagig rules from there for 100 years and disappears.
420-505 CY...sometime between disappearance and trapping Iuz in the Godtrap...Zagig returns and traps Fraz-Urb'luu in a Wal bas relief. Thoughts: did Fraz's disappearance coincide with the magical catastrophe? Was Zagig the "one we do not know... Impossible!"?

If thats the case, then why was Bersteck surprised to see her?

Another possibility about dalt: being that Dalt was supposedly "absorbed by Y", and mordy found an abandoned temple to him, could perhaps the unnamed high priest of Leng have been the one to have absorbed Dalt, so that now Dalt is actually Nyarlathotep/priest of Leng?

TOME OF THE BLACK HEART, KERZIT, AND THE LOST CITY OF ELDERS.

FACTS:
1. Eli captured Kerzit while visiting the Lost City of Elders.
2. Eli chanced upon the Lost City in the past, and seeks to return.
3. Eli's hands were removed and 12 spikes grafted to each by the same creature that gave them to him.
4. If the Tome is stolen or destroyed, Kerzit will be loosed.
5. The Tome was written by several evil magi near the Valley of the Mage.
6. Tome was found by Eli in a curio shop.
7. Kerzit was created by higher demons to serve the cause of chaos.
8. Eli summoned Kerzit through the Tome.
9. Eli visited the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun and was taught by priests there.
10. Mordenkainen made magical copy of Tome.
11. Uncle has been to the Lost City of the Elders.
12. Eli has yet ti breech the Greater Halls, so he is unaware of thw painting of Kerzit.

IDEAS/SURMISES/ORDER OF THINGS

1. Kerzit was created.
2. Uncle somehow gains access to the Lost City of the Elders. Did he already have the Dagger Obelisk? This would make sense,since Fharlangn and Celestian, the gods needed to make sacrifices to in order to create the dagger, were prevalent in Maure in the beginning.
3. Somehow, the priests of Tharizdun also knew how to create thed dagger and and performed the ritual for him to get to the Lost City before their fall.
4. Eli goes to the City and finds/captures Kerzit.
5. While there, he acquires his new hands.
6. The evil magi discovers the means to write the Tome. Tome is lost when the Mage of the Valley destroys/runs them off.
7. Eli finds Tome in curio shop.
8. Eli summons Kerzit using the Tome.
9. Mordenkainen, after killing Eli, and realizing that in taking the Tome would somehow free Kerzit, akws copy of the Tome.
10. Eli is resurrected and returns to Maure where the Tome and Kerzit await.

I believe that the evil mages were in fact worshippers of Tharizdun.
I also believe that Uncle summoned Kerzit ages ago, and perhaps was the original author of the Tome, and that the evil mages, like Mordy, also made a copy.

Of course, I also ran across a thread titled Abandoned Chapel of Dalt?http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=14649 where someone mentions to RJK about a Randall Flag avatar connection, so I looked up Flagg and saw an avatar named Nyarlathotep. Looking him up, come to find out that the priest of Leng, who RJK said is who Mordy got the silver key from in his original works, had a silver key, was known as the High Priest Not to be Described, and was an Elder Hierophant. Nyarlathotep has many forms/avatars: the Crawling Mist from the Dreamlands (the Elder Eye floated above its sleeping owner and invaded his dreams), Messenger of the Old Ones, etc. Now as the summoning of Y is always preceded by his unnamed servant, could Dalt be said servant...ie. Nyarlathotep? Other items of note from the Dungeon Maure adventures: the Dalt painting and Fraz's painting both describe Dalt as having olive skin. In the Guide to the World of Greyhawk describes Oeridians as having olive skin. Dalt is shown to have robes with the symbol if Fharlangn. Also throughout the modules there is mention and/or signs of Fhar and his brother Celestian,who are Oeridian gods. I find it interesting that in a place of Suel mages, that you would find evidence of another culture's deities. In another thread somewhere it states that Fraz at one time corrupted druidic rituals to include human sacrifice. An entire sect of nature gods was debased,hence their relocation from Concordant Opposition to the border with the Abyss. Could this be the Elder Gods (who I personally believe to be Hierophant druids) .

several people starting looking for a fan driven continuation. I will say this,
if I turn out to put out quality material for this upcoming new game world, I will revisit this at a later date, for right now I doubt my ability to provide as good as material as Rob has done over the years. Also, talking over the telephone is not a good way for me to communicate with anybody. So, if there are others that want to continue working on fan based material, do so. Maybe someday in the future, I will be able to meet with Uncle for a major sit down and hammer ideas event and have enough confidence in my work to tackle such a treasure that Maure Castle has become. Just want to inform all gentle readers. Godspeed.

Vermilleo
May 6, 2013, 04:26 AM | FLAG | LIST
| REPLY
+

I realize this thread has been dead for awhile but it's not like necroing a thread is a crime, right? I just wanted to say that while Yog-Sothoth is also my first guess (pretty much along the same reason as the OP, mainly due to the Silver Key), two other possibilities include Yuggoth (if it's not just a planet...? Which it may not be) and Y'golonac, who is also an (albeit less-known) Old One. Also his (?) "portfolio" seems to overlap rather well with the Maure family's personality <<

Andor the Wise
03:27 AM | FLAG | LIST
| REPLY
+
I'd like to put my two coppers worth into this discussion. Ive been playing greyhawk now for 22 years. I actually stumbled upon this blog recently looking for info for my own campaign that is a compilation of modules and my own stuff. Anyway, on to my coppers: i read both of generic villian and arten's posts and great work by both, but i think everyone has missed a critical point that RJK tried to allude to on several occasions, and that is TIME. When looking at things on the surface we have seen through the eyes of our characters as if they were reading things un real time. But that is incorrect. Here is a timeline I came up with using the Hisrory of Oerth from the OJ's and the dates provided in the maure adventures : 5069SD (-447CY) Slerotin creates tunnel in the Crystalmists.
5069-5102SD (-447to-414CY) Slerotin's apprentices establish Maure Castle; create 8pointed star and leave oerth.
5102-5152SD (-414to-364CY) Chamber of Antiquities (level 6) created by Afelbain; Statuary (level 7) created; Afelbain joyous that he witnessed Uncle summon "the prince. Dread talons, 7times making 7passes. Earth trembled and obeyed."
5152-5802SD (-364 to 286CY) levels 8-18 completed.
5249SD (-267CY)Tanilar Kreel, a cultist of the Cult of the Long Shadows,scrawls message before he dies "they know not what they anger"; the Purple Stone tried to subvert all the cults and the Maures; Maures raise the Unopenable Doors.
5202SD (-14CY) Lower levels sealed.
5516-5766SD (1-250CY) Uncle and Vexus have dealings with Rauxes.
5752SD (236CY) Vexus dealing with Duchy of Urnst.
5802SD (286CY) Vexus's repository updated.

Now, what do we know/hypothesize: Uncle summoned the prince early on. If this was Y, then why the need for Dalt later? And all of the extensive rituals to summon one who is already here?
Who or what wanted to destroy the Maures and why?
From the notes from Elluvia to Bersteck, we find that 1. Bersteck had possessions of the Scythe of Yenoghuu, and 2. Elluvia gained possession of it.
Elluvia had unwanted attention from family members.
Orcus was once a servant to Tharizdun.
Why was Afelbain's death depicted in Orcus's painting?
Area 16 of the Greater Halls shows that there were once paintings there. Were they moved to the paintings room? Why?
How did Uncle get to the Lost City of Elders?
Afelbain alludes to something that Elluvia can give Uncle that will make him relent when she wants to create her pit. I believe this is the Book of Dead Names.

NOW FOR THE PAYOFF: Y and the HE in the note about "pray tha the boy is successful so that HE may come, are two differnt beings. Y may be yog sothoth sothoth as surmised in artens post, but I believe him to be a red herring, a fake. Uncle has been around longer than any of the other Maures. He sets up a false god to hide the fact that he secretly worships tharizdun. He obtains the Tome of the Black Heart and summons Kerzit (the prince that Afelbain witnessed being summoned). In the early goings, Dalt was summoned as an unknowing dupe to aid in the illusion that yog sothoth was their god. Convincing Dalt of the same, they send him to supposedly break yog free, but in fact, it was Tharizdun that Uncle wanted to summon to help them destroy the fiends of Rauxes. At the time of the Maures fall, the Great Kingdom was on the move,taking over all around. Their power was much more than Vex surmised. Was that due to Xaenes arrival from another dimension? Hmm. Yea Vex was trying to get in Elluvias pants, but his was the way of gifts and honeyed words (aftr all, he was a merchant and rogue), but it was Bersteck, Elluvias real uncle, who took on thw role of her rapist. Hence overwhelming anger that pours forth when she has the magic mouth scream "Die, Bersteck!" Oh, and by the way, her method of carrying out her excution attempt is the clue to what Malcanthet had her southern attentions on. Elluvia kept stringing Vex along, dangling the goods but never allowing a taste, putty in her hands, gaining information about Uncle until the time was right to strike, then usung his want for hwr as leverage to have him help her in the coup. The picture of Dalt being led by her is correct, she to was misled and deceived by Fraz. So, what happened to Dalt and why was hus painting defaced you ask? The paintings are gates of a sort. They allow access, both ways, to the demon depicted. But they lose their magical properties if destroyed. So by destroying Dalts painting is to close the gate thereby stranding Dalt. Who then, would know that it was Tharizdun and not Yog that would also not want him coming? Malcanthet. Hers was the claws that rent the painting. Berstecks comment "Curse Vex for hus greed was referring to his involvemnt with Rauxes, as he became a turncoat once seeing the true power of the great kingdom and seeing his gain by switching sides,hence the other reason he helped Elluvia summon Malcanthet.

By the way, this also explains the reason there are paintings of Kerzit and Shan Duan mixed in with the others. Now for the proof/link: I finally received my copy of Dark Druids in the mail today. It deals with thw Dark God (as Tharizdun is also known as). On page 43, the list of the Dark quest Series, part 3 is titled Black Heart (as in Tome of the).

THE END.

Thanks for your time reading my ramblings.
Greyhawk lives on! Always!