Ok I have a question or a challenge.......
Using PFRPG rules with the following restrictions how would you Tuckerize a lair of Kobolds to make it a challenge for a group of level 10 characters.
60 Kobolds (30 that are capable of combat, 15 that are non combat but are able to perform tasks, 15 hatchlings)
No PC classes - 1 6th, 2 3rds, and 3 2nd level NPC levels available.
It's a new lair so the Kobolds have had one years worth of tunnelling and construction and 600 gp in mundane goods.
I removed some posts. Be civil.
Also, flag it and move on.
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I love the implication that the kobolds do nothing but prepare for the next group of adventurers to come through. The moment the heroes have entered, the door is barred and the corridor is on fire. You can imagine the little lizardmen squealing with glee. "Yes! Just as our food supplies are running low, more PCs show up!"
No...like all intelligent things they have a culture with rules to which they conform. Visiting the Kobold King has a Protocol to which Adventurers looking for gold over the Kobolds dead body never conform. Traps are not just a test of the ingenuity of Kobolds as a culture (seeing raids by intelligent foes as an honor against which Kobold Braves test their trap building skills), They can be a test of the intellect of the next heir in line for the throne and given there are dozens of heirs all jockeying for position...lots of different ideas on what an awesome trap is.
Here is what is considered a shared list of concepts from which most cultures will draw on.
MONARCHICAL ABSOLUTISM. The King or independent Chief enjoys absolute power.
EMINENT DOMAIN. All land, Livestock, and Game are the property of the monarch providing a right to income.
DIVINE AUTHORITY. The Ruler is a divine power or has access to divine Power.
RITUAL ISOLATION. The Monarch resides in physical isolation with a few attendants to do the Monarchs Bidding. Meetings involve acts of isolation by curtains, designated speakers,
INSIGNIA OF OFFICE. Royal status is displayed through symbolic regalia,
CAPITAL TOWNS. The Monarch resides in a capital and new rulers establish a new capital or residence.
ROYAL COURTS. The Monarch maintains a Court with assorted specialized staff. Pages, guards, chamberlains, etc.
PROTOCOL. Behaviour in the presence almost universally requires conformity to a process of behaviour. Indirect Interaction, Gifts, Abject Prostration, etc.
HAREMS. The ruler has a great many wives and or concubines.
QUEENS. At most royal courts a queen mother, a queen consort, a Queen Sister enjoy prestige sometimes outranking the Monarch. They will likely have their own estates and enjoy some political authority.
TERRITORIAL BUREACRACY. For Administrative purposes, the state is divided into administrative provinces with their own officials tasked with taxation and labour management. Such provinces will be subordinate to a central authority.
MINISTERS. Located in the Capital they work as assistants to the Monarch in the central Bureaucracy.
DUALITY OF ROLES. Ministers function in an assortment of areas of the bureaucracy.
TITLES. Hereditary or Term of Service.
SECURITY. Rivals for the throne are killed, imprisoned, or deported to maintain stability.
ELECTORAL SUCCESSION. Though the Monarch designates an Heir, the final say is in the hands of ministers.
PERIOD OF MOURNING. After the death of the Monarch. A period of social disorder occurs when candidates vie for power.
HECATOMB. Funerary Rites for a Monarch include acts of sacrifice, sometimes large scale slaughter.
Example – A Kobold Chief named Topek suddenly has a style all his own: Topek the Cunning expects a gift of blue stones when visitors come before him. His Advisors wear wooden Masks at court, and he had to hand-carve his own throne from a block of sandstone as a rite of Passage. Topek is all about courtly ceremony and ritual.
- Covered with a leather hide is an open stone box of blue stones next to a large piece of Sandstone carved with scratches and what could be a skull. When Topek the Cunning is present, his advisors stand behind him wearing wooden masks.
So when the Adventurers swan in and Kill the Kobold Chief...the Kobolds who survive are obliged to mourn the loss of the old King and conduct Hecatomb - a funerary right involving large scale slaughter. So they pop down the human village and kill the villagers in celebration of the passing of their old king - of course this results in a vicious circle where new Adventurers show up and kill the new Kobold King.
Want to learn more? [G. E. Lenski, ‘Power and Privilege’, 1966] discusses the progress of Society from Hunter-Gatherer to the Industrial Age.
But Marmite is bloody gorgeous!
Promite is superior in every way, however.
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I always love listening to the naysayers who claim they'd never get caught in such an awkward situation with kobolds. The whole story is to show how a creative DM can craft a challenge for PCs with what most would consider less-than-optimal creatures. I've done something similar myself, and my veteran players were forced to rise to the challenge and look beyond their preconceived notions.
I have not been caught in such a situation with kobolds -- I tend to be a rather cautious player and tend to plan escape first attack second, with the understanding that being able to run away means you can have a new chance of success later.
That doesn't mean I haven't seen others get stuck in such places with kobolds before (in fact I've been asked to not put kobolds into my campaigns because of this before -- though to be fair my current party is much smarter than the party that the request).
I'm intrested in 8th Dwarf's suggestion, though I do think a 10th level pathfinder PC is a huge deal more powerful than in 1st Edition, I'd like to give it a shot.
Is anyone interested in participating?
We'll start with our leader. I think making him an adept gives us the most tools to work with. It's a shame the ecology entry doesnt give us two fourth level kobolds to work with, as then we'd have two kobold mystics capable of casting second level spells, but I digress. Of the spells on the list we can use... I'm thinking darkness and animal trance have the most potential here.
You're ignoring the MAJOR paradigm shift of what happens when a pre-d20 spellcaster gets hit while casting a spell.I always wondered why the mage in the party didn't just cloudkill the bastards. Repeatedly. Or send in an air or fire elemental along all those little corridors to fry them on.
To me, it was an exemplar of pretty poor game play. They simply should have made a priority of killing off all the kobolds by whatever means were needed, filling in their tunnels, and else...instead they just endured the problem.
Meh.
But, it was a great story about incompetent adventurers being defeated by skill and brains back then!
==Aelryinth
You're ignoring the fact protection from normal missiles and resist fire made you invulnerable to non-magical missiles and non-magical fire, respectively.
As for the elementals, c'mon, look at the duration on those spells...it was a turn a level. You summon the bloody things OUTSIDE, and send 'em in. They are amorphous creatures and can fit into those tiny little halls without a problem.
And if you want to be really mean you just summon an Earth Elemental and crush them from the walls themselves.
==========Oh, yeah. Fighters got 1 att/level against level 0 creatures like kobolds. So, a 7th level fighter could wipe out 7 of those...
A 7th level fighter could wipe out seven of those a round? Bwahahahahahahahahaha. Ok.
He is assuming great cleave and being completely surrounded. If the Kobolds were smart they would never surround and melee a heavy fighter. Why engage, when darts or bolts through holes gets more results? Holes in a hallway, pull up chains (heave-ho), stab small longspears through small holes (can be sundered, but getting to the wielder means destroying the wall).
Yeah, walls and such are wonderful for slowing casualties.
With all due respect Abraham Spalding, I don't think its about the DM fudging the rules cause they can't stand losing. It comes down to use of savvy tactics by the enemies on the PCs. I've seen how this can really piss off certain players. Players who are used to being able to power through every single encounter with moderate ease. One I saw did alot of online gaming but very little table-top stuff. He got quite annoyed that physically weaker enemies were giving the party a run for their money. Half-ogre skirmishers which were very careful to keep out of clear line of sight. Skirmished the party alot and took down the rogue. It comes down to the thought of "how dare I, the player, not suceed. Its the DM's fault!" A line used quite often by gamers who hate a challenge and the thought of anything even being able to challenge them. Truly a sad thing.
Poison and draining, that only adds to the sense of offence is the easily offended.
Would arrow slits grant cover to both the kobolds AND to the PCs? The little buggers already have next to no chance of landing a hit, so granting the PCs cover is a no go.
However, even the most basic of traps, the CR 1 Arrow Trap has a +15 to hit. The DC for Craft Traps is at DC 20 for any trap under CR 5. That means that with aid another, our Kobold Warriors with +6 can work in 3s to craft them. (Keep in mind, this is without an automatic reset or a proximity trigger)
The cost rules for traps are pretty well open to GM interpretation, but as written crafting a CR 1 trap would be 500 gp (or 175gp if it counts as a "simple" trap). Either way this burns through our 600gp gold allotment pretty fast, before we add any poison to the mix.
... hrm. :/
Remember we are talking about 1st ed.. There is no CR or Great Cleave. There is no DC. The ability to sweep 0th lvl creatures was one all fighters had to start with, and it was fun to do. So yes, the kobolds would not surround a fighter, but use hit and run tactics.
He is assuming great cleave and being completely surrounded. If the Kobolds were smart they would never surround and melee a heavy fighter. Why engage, when darts or bolts through holes gets more results? Holes in a hallway, pull up chains (heave-ho), stab small longspears through small holes (can be sundered, but getting to the wielder means destroying the wall).
Yeah, walls and such are wonderful for slowing casualties.
What Lorm said. In 1st edition, you could make multiple attacks against creatures that had less than 1HD. So said 7th level fighter could conceivably take out 7 kobolds in a round...assuming they were dumb enough to swarm him, or pack together in such a way that he could move up and attack them all. But like you said, proper tactics avoids this eventuality.
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Remember we are talking about 1st ed.. There is no CR or Great Cleave. There is no DC. The ability to sweep 0th lvl creatures was one all fighters had to start with, and it was fun to do. So yes, the kobolds would not surround a fighter, but use hit and run tactics.
What Shadowborn said. Fighters had a sort of "Great Cleave" built in as a class feature against "mook" type opponents. They were no wilting lilies in 1e.
What houstonderek said. My one character standing on a bridge and holding off a horde of gibberlings or goblins or something remains an especially fond memory.
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With all due respect Abraham Spalding, I don't think its about the DM fudging the rules cause they can't stand losing. It comes down to use of savvy tactics by the enemies on the PCs. I've seen how this can really piss off certain players. Players who are used to being able to power through every single encounter with moderate ease. One I saw did alot of online gaming but very little table-top stuff. He got quite annoyed that physically weaker enemies were giving the party a run for their money. Half-ogre skirmishers which were very careful to keep out of clear line of sight. Skirmished the party alot and took down the rogue. It comes down to the thought of "how dare I, the player, not suceed. Its the DM's fault!" A line used quite often by gamers who hate a challenge and the thought of anything even being able to challenge them. Truly a sad thing.
It is certainly fair and free game to use tactics against the party. It is another entirely to change the universe around them when they have managed to use their own tactics to out flank you as a GM which is what was being discussed at the time.
Tucker's kobolds are a well known set up and as such they had the things with them where they were, when people pointed out that the players had been stupid (and I fully agree they had been) and offered a different means of handling the problem others started moving things around, adding doors and other such shenanigans to cause perfectly valid and intelligent play on the players behalf to be ineffective.
That good sir -- is what I was calling crap. If you are going to have the monsters use tactics and strategy and set themselves up well, I'm fine with that.
When that set up gets turned on its head by a smart and competent player... well turn about is fair play. You congratulate him and move on and enjoy the surprises you both had. Changing the set up upon realizing that his tactics are going to succeed to suddenly put a door in the way, or move where the barrels of oil the kobolds were just pushing just because the player figured a way to get the jump on you is the actions of a poor GM that probably has issues.
I have had times where I as a GM have been out thought by the players. It happens, there are (probably)3~6 of them and only one of the GM -- as such it's time to congratulate the players and hope the rest of it holds together. I find my players are much more receptive when I simply say, "Wow, I didn't think of that, congratulations you probably just made this a lot easier on yourself" than if I go, "Oh, well you didn't see this other kobold who's only purpose was to close the door before your fireball could make it in."
It's dishonest, and insults both me and the players to pull crap like that.
I have done something of a "Tucker's Dungeon" before -- the kobolds were 3.5 kobolds and had a level in fighter each, and the swarm fighting feat plus shield wall if I remember correctly. They had multiple tunnels dug around and positioned themselves well with traps and what not going on. At first the party fell for it, but once they regrouped and thought about what they were doing I didn't suddenly change everything around (after all why would the Kobolds do so? They were winning as far as they knew and weren't so terribly advanced to realize that the PCs still had options they hadn't used yet) -- different tactics by the party meets with success -- if they had gone in with those tactics the first time they would have succeeded then too.
What really threw them for a loop was the nymph in the grotto that really believed that the dragon of the dungeon was a really sweet and nice guy (and he was -- to her). She was of good alignment and when the paladin went to smite her instead of asking her what she knew (since she wasn't going to let them hurt her darling) he got himself in trouble.
Messing with expectations is perfectly fine -- changing the world in the middle of play generally isn't.
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Messing with expectations is perfectly fine -- changing the world in the middle of play generally isn't.
Very true. And I'd just like to point out that I've seen players do the same thing, too--retroactively changing their setup so that they have the solution right in front of them. Usually involving claiming to have cast spells he didn't, or arguing that they should have known certain things that they shouldn't, or browbeating the GM into agreeing with his dubious interpretation.
It's cheating and poor sportsmanship when the player does it, and it's cheating and poor sportsmanship when the GM does it.
Fully agreed.
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I always wondered why the mage in the party didn't just cloudkill the bastards. Repeatedly. Or send in an air or fire elemental along all those little corridors to fry them on.
To me, it was an exemplar of pretty poor game play. They simply should have made a priority of killing off all the kobolds by whatever means were needed, filling in their tunnels, and else...instead they just endured the problem.
Meh.
But, it was a great story about incompetent adventurers being defeated by skill and brains back then!
==Aelryinth
Because magic isn't the solution to Tucker's kobolds. You gas yourself more than the kobolds behind the murder holes, no chance to get a great fireball off, the spellcaster is being shot constantly (probably poisoned or hit with rot grub dung pies as well).
The whole idea behind Tucker's kobolds is that the typical actions of the powerful players (I hit it with my spell, it dies) do not work by design. It is a true ambush where hitting back is hard.
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Dude, chances in 1e of having a 17 or 18 in anything were pretty slim. What game were you playing?
And I'm not discussing the "impossibility" of anything. I'm discussing the probability that even an intelligent party could find the situation difficult, considering the realities of 1e. Seriously, I know you're old school, but you sound like a 3x munchkin when you're discussing this. Even using 4d6 drop, a 17 or 18 is rare. And you have no idea if the wizard in the party under discussion even had a wizard with an 18 int. For all we know, he could have had a 15, which is much more probable. And he may have maxed out his spells for that level before he could take the ones you cite. Different game, different paradigm and a whole lot easier for DMs to make...
In 1E, the chances of getting a good score were dependent on how many times you rolled until you got a set you liked. If the DM was a scrooge, you just killed the character off and re-rolled.
Or he let you get 4d6, drop best, and assign where you like. Odds of a 16+ go way up.
Remember, in 1E, you got NO BONUSES until at LEAST a 15 in most scores...16 for Str, 15 for dex/con/wis. If you didn't have high stats, you basically didn't have ANY bonuses.
Then go back and look at the NPC's of 1E. They almost always had a 16+ in their primary scores, and if they didn't have a 16 Con, you didn't play them because they were too squishy.
Seriously, we metagamed back then just as much as people do now. Just because you didn't see fancy TH vs AC analysis all over the place didn't mean we didn't spot the sweet spots in the game.
And then, of course, Unearthed Arcana came out, and 16+ in your stats was basically a given using the alternate methods. In other words, you finally reliably got to play heros, and not useless scuds only good if they stumbled across a set of Gauntlets of Ogre Power.
Too many people think 1E was like the example above, 3d6 in order, pick your class, and go.
Here here!
Which means I agree with you.
Messing with expectations is perfectly fine -- changing the world in the middle of play generally isn't.
Very true. And I'd just like to point out that I've seen players do the same thing, too--retroactively changing their setup so that they have the solution right in front of them. Usually involving claiming to have cast spells he didn't, or arguing that they should have known certain things that they shouldn't, or browbeating the GM into agreeing with his dubious interpretation.
It's cheating and poor sportsmanship when the player does it, and it's cheating and poor sportsmanship when the GM does it.
It is hilarious when their cheating is revealed.
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Because magic isn't the solution to Tucker's kobolds. You gas yourself more than the kobolds behind the murder holes, no chance to get a great fireball off, the spellcaster is being shot constantly (probably poisoned or hit with rot grub dung pies as well).
The whole idea behind Tucker's kobolds is that the typical actions of the powerful players (I hit it with my spell, it dies) do not work by design. It is a true ambush where hitting back is hard.
I concur with this whole heartedly. A party of eight battle ready 7th level players had a hell of a time dealing with an area where a kobold trapsmith had been allowed to go crazy.
There were some magical traps, but its the mechanical ones that got to them. He was playing mind games with them, messing with their expectations and making stuff like piranha swarms, bugs, and flammable things into a major problem for them.
In another game, there was a kobold who used hit and fade tactics to basically make life a living misery for the party. They felt like they were punching at the waves because he'd never be where they went looking for him, and he'd rely on traps, diversions, false trails and the like.
This doesn't imply the party was 'stupid' just that most mages don't behave like omniscient forensic pathologists. If you poke a wizard long enough, they tend to get punchy, they get angry, they make mistakes or they go for easy solutions.
In 2e I got many a wizard in trouble by having kobolds use simple traps like glass walls. The door would open, about 30 kobolds would moon the party, the wizard would 'helpfully' throw a fireball into the midst, hit the intervening glass, and then surround himself and his party in a ball of flame (I really miss bouncing lightning bolts and fireballs by volume...). Beauty of the glass wall was the fighter might just charge /through/ it too. Another part had the party fighting on a floor made of glass squares on a thin metal frame and covered by dirt. The kobolds didn't weigh enough to go through, but the PCs did, right into a pit-trap made of broken glass.
That dungeon would have made Hans Grueber from Die Hard proud. And the only 'secret' to it was the kobold chief was some sort of insane glassmaker who lived near a desert.
But rambign aside, it was mundane tactics that made their lives miserable, because for all of the stat juggling, and spell lobbing, adventurers tend to forget very simple things (things they ironically played a LOT more attention to when they were low level.)
Great stories, and that is exactly the pit trap of the matter.
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I always wondered why the mage in the party didn't just cloudkill the bastards. Repeatedly. Or send in an air or fire elemental along all those little corridors to fry them on.
To me, it was an exemplar of pretty poor game play. They simply should have made a priority of killing off all the kobolds by whatever means were needed, filling in their tunnels, and else...instead they just endured the problem.
Meh.
But, it was a great story about incompetent adventurers being defeated by skill and brains back then!
==Aelryinth
Hi Aelryinth,
I had to speak up because I am not used to ever seeing you slip on a rule (even a long defunct one).
The elemental stunt would probably have been a bad idea. In 1st edition the Conjure Elemental spell required constant concentration which was automatically interrupted if you were wounded or grappled. If this EVER happened (And there was a 5% chance it happened no matter what you did) that 16HD elemental came right back at the caster determined to slay him. In a "Tuckers Kobolds" scenario your wizard being wounded by a kobold sniper was a near certainty.
Cloudkill, definitely lots and lots of cloudkill. :)
-Weslocke of Phazdaliom-
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this post says it all. not everyone powergames like you describe. not everyone considers a character with no stat bonuses to be worthless--some of us are men, and prefer such obstacles as a good challenge. not everyone suicides their character because they don't like the stats and want to reroll. that's all munchkin crap. that's the game you play(ed), and more power to you and your permissive DMs, but your experience does not define the game any more than mine does or anyone else's does. but playing 1E with the rules as written, you're not likely to have a magic-user with a high int, you DEFINITELY don't get to roll multiple times for your chance to learn a given spell, spells don't fall out of trees just because you want them, and in no conceivable way was a 12th level wizard able to MELEE a bunch of kobolds.
Wow, I am so impressed by your machismo.
I bet you didn't even have to fight the kobolds.
You're such a MAN that you probably just hulk-frowned at them until their heads exploded from sheer testosterone-overload.
Raar! I am You pathetic girly man, probably feel emotion too, not like REAL MAN!
Or, y'know, we could disagree with each other without having to get personal and critical, question others' manhood and use loaded phrases like 'permissive DM', 'munchkin crap' and the like.
Up to you, really. [shrug]
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And then, of course, Unearthed Arcana came out, and 16+ in your stats was basically a given using the alternate methods. In other words, you finally reliably got to play heros, and not useless scuds only good if they stumbled across a set of Gauntlets of Ogre Power.
High stats don't make heroes, actions make them. In fact, I'd venture to say that acting in a heroic manner despite ordinary stats makes one more of a hero.
And I would agree. I've tried to explain this to powergamers, you don't need all 20s, but they don't get it. They want massive numbers and a lot of security, but it doesn't always work out that way (there is always a bigger fish).
