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This just goes to show I shouldn't do these tutorials when I'm falling asleep. ^.^"
Ah, "Maths after midnight", that old favorite ;-)
I think I would prefer it with 2 charges for the Telekinesis to make it more cost effective (price 47625). Indeed I favor 2 charges per spell as a general starting point.
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If I understand her math correctly, let us take a simple +1/+1 quarterstaff with a total of 10 charges per day containing fireball at 3 charges, scorhing ray at 2 charges and burning hands at 1 charge.
The base stick will cost 4k because of the +1/+1 enchantment on it. For sticking spells onto it things get complicated. Let us assume caster level 10 for ease of math. Fireball will cost 3 (spell level) x 10 (caster level) x 750 (base price) / 3 (uses three charges to use fireball) / 5 (another base factor from my impression) = 1500 per use a day from fireball alone. Adding in scorching ray is 2x10x750/2/5*.75 = 1,125 per use a day from scorching ray. Burning hands would be 1x10x750/1/5*.5 = 750 from burning hands. A total of 3325 per use. Then multiplying by 10 for the 10 uses per gets us 33250 for the spell flinging, totaling 37250 in total for the staff. This seems to be in the right ballpark as a wand of a level 4 spell costs 21k. Though it still seems overpriced to me, I'd adjust the overall price by 2/3 or 3/4 if I want to make them attractive.
Using Ashiel's tutorial I think this comes out at a price of 11625 gp for the staff part.
Well the difference is having wish on-demand. Basically he's paying all that money to have access to nearly any spell at any time, a true schrodinger wizard.I once created a "staff of wishful thinking" for a 20th-level game I was in. It allowed you to cast wish for 3 charges and limited wish for 1 charge.
The fact that all the components were paid for at the staff's creation meant that I would never again have to pay for them.
The fact that I was also an arcane bloodline sorcerer with his 20th-level capstone ability also meant that I could forever cast limited wish by merely dropping 3 levels of spells (three 1st, one 3rd, etc.) or wish by dropping 9 levels of spells (nine 1st, three 3rd, one 9th, etc.).
When we started the game and the GM realized what I had done he said "staff of wishful thinking indeed!"
Wouldn't have upset me if I was GMing. A staff like that would cost a fortune. The wish effect alone would cost 114,750 gp + 1,250,000 gp in material components, divided by 1.6 for 3 charges, or 852,968.75 gp market price, plus an additional 51187.5 gp + 75,000 gp in material components, bringing the total market price of your staff to 979,156.25 gold pieces, pushing outside of your entire WBL. The only way you could have such as staff at all would be to craft it yourself, requiring about 2.6 years of work if you worked on it every day of every year.
Honestly, the staff isn't worth it. At 13rd level you could have just cast planar binding and got all the wishes you wanted. This just seems like a wasteful way to do it. It's not even like Wish or Limited wish are all that great in Pathfinder, since it was sufficiently nerfed to remove the cheese. Limited wish is generally better because its material component is a fairly inexpensive (for its level) method of hosing someone's saves before a flesh to awesome.
Though not so much run in game if this wizard were "real" it could be a great money maker. Though admitedly a HUGE investment of time and money up front. It'd be great for getting rich, but I think most DM's wouldn't go for it unless they are great supporters of organic world development.
Idea 1)In previous editions Wish allowed the creation of magic items below a certain amount (I think it was 2500, but I don't truly remember). If DM allows it *Poof* low level custom item creation. I think the price had to do with the material component cost. Theoretically, one still could create stuff, magic or otherwise, that is equal or less than the material component cost. Do this 10 times (with someone who can/will buy whatever you make) and you've just recouped your losses.
Idea 2) Sell inherient bonuses. No doubht the super wealthy would be excited for the opportunity to boost their Int/cha/etc.
idea 3) you have friggin WISH AT WILL. No doubt a hyper intelligent 18+ level mage can figure a way less crass than the first two ideas to leverage this power and recouperate his investment quickly.
. . .idea 3) you have friggin WISH AT WILL. No doubt a hyper intelligent 18+ level mage can figure a way less crass than the first two ideas to leverage this power and recuperate his investment quickly.
My first wish would be, "I wish that the most wise and benevolent being would advise me on how to use this power."
. . .idea 3) you have friggin WISH AT WILL. No doubt a hyper intelligent 18+ level mage can figure a way less crass than the first two ideas to leverage this power and recuperate his investment quickly.My first wish would be, "I wish that the most wise and benevolent being would advise me on how to use this power."
Your wish is granted.
A solar (with class levels) appears, scowling. Snatches the staff out of your hand. B**ch slaps you. Then disapears.
Using Ashiel's tutorial I think this comes out at a price of 11625 gp for the staff part.If I understand her math correctly, let us take a simple +1/+1 quarterstaff with a total of 10 charges per day containing fireball at 3 charges, scorhing ray at 2 charges and burning hands at 1 charge.
The base stick will cost 4k because of the +1/+1 enchantment on it. For sticking spells onto it things get complicated. Let us assume caster level 10 for ease of math. Fireball will cost 3 (spell level) x 10 (caster level) x 750 (base price) / 3 (uses three charges to use fireball) / 5 (another base factor from my impression) = 1500 per use a day from fireball alone. Adding in scorching ray is 2x10x750/2/5*.75 = 1,125 per use a day from scorching ray. Burning hands would be 1x10x750/1/5*.5 = 750 from burning hands. A total of 3325 per use. Then multiplying by 10 for the 10 uses per gets us 33250 for the spell flinging, totaling 37250 in total for the staff. This seems to be in the right ballpark as a wand of a level 4 spell costs 21k. Though it still seems overpriced to me, I'd adjust the overall price by 2/3 or 3/4 if I want to make them attractive.
The only thing I'm not sure on is whether you use min caster level or your caster for it. If when you use the staff it uses your caster level then it should be priced at min caster level, at which point your 11k figure seems about right and it does make staves very attractive. I am going have to give the a whirl sometime.
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. . .Now how to make staves special?
I have a few suggestions.
- Use the wielder's caster level and bonuses rather than the item's when casting spells.
- Allow staves to be magic weapons in addition to their spell-casting abilities. I'd consider doing this without even charging the +50% fee for stacking abilities, since 1) striking with the staff and casting a spell are mutually exclusive and 2) staves are generally wielded by characters who aren't melee specialists.
- Add an occasional special ability to a staff, outside of it's weapon and spell casting powers. A staff that can cast Vomit Swarm may also allow communication with insects, for example.
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Looking at the price guidelines and the listed price of the staves in the PRD, are those price suggestions suppossed to be the cost to create? Because every staff I have 'reverse-engineered' so far is close to twice the price listed in the guidelines (400 gp x highest level spell x caster + 75% of next highest level spell + 50% of all other spells).
That is . . . wierd. Every other price in the guidelines is listed as market value, with the creation cost being half. Was this deliberate?
Master Arminas
Are you counting that increasing the number of charges reduces the price for a given spell? You divide by the number of charges used when casting a given spell. This can be used to drastically reduce the cost of a staff.
Thank you Ashiel. Tho i think you have fallen over by now ;-)
I will print this and take it to my dm and see what he thinks.
Could be worse. A Vorlon would just blow you up, and then give a speech on how your "race is not ready to wield such power."/QUOTE]My first wish would be, "I wish that the most wise and benevolent being would advise me on how to use this power."Your wish is granted.
A solar (with class levels) appears, scowling. Snatches the staff out of your hand. B**ch slaps you. Then disapears.
Alternatively, an interesting plot or relationship could be introduced.
Staff of wishful thinking breakdown:
Highest Level Spell
WISH: 9th-level spell at CL 17th = (9 x 17 x 400) = 61,200gp
+ expensive material component = (25,000 x 50) = 1,250,000gp
Next Highest Spell
LIMITED WISH: 7th-level spell at CL 17th = (7 x 17 x 300) = 35,700gp
+ expensive material component = (1,500 x 50) = 75,000gp
That comes up to 1,421,900gp market price.
However, since we are having wish cost three charges the first half of the above formula looks like this:
(61,200 + 1,250,000 = 1,311,200) / 3 = 437,066.67gp
So wish for three charges costs 437,066.67gp
Limited wish for one charge costs 110,700gp.
Together the staff has a final market value of 547,766.67gp.
What exactly am I doing wrong Ashiel? I honestly believe your numbers are in error somewhere.
EDIT: Ah, I think I get it now. After re-reading your post I noticed that you are dividing by 1.6 instead of 3. That's wrong.
You are supposed to divide the total cost of the spell (including material components) by the number of charges it would take to cast said spell from the staff. Since wish takes three charges, you divide the total cost for wish (1,311,200gp) by 3.
You do NOT divide by (5 divided by charges per day) like on the table.
Sorry if this revelation messes up all your other posts' calculations in this thread.
Also, good luck adjudicating any staff with fabricate in it. You must provide the material components during the staff creation. Since the spell's costly components are so variable, you can't really determine that during the creation (as you have no idea what the spell is going to create).
Also, good luck adjudicating any staff with fabricate in it. You must provide the material components during the staff creation. Since the spell's costly components are so variable, you can't really determine that during the creation (as you have no idea what the spell is going to create).
Thanx Ravingdork i hadnt thought of that.
So well go with stone shape instead, we are in a stone duengion anyway. And Fab. dosent work well with stone or metal
Are you counting that increasing the number of charges reduces the price for a given spell? You divide by the number of charges used when casting a given spell. This can be used to drastically reduce the cost of a staff.Looking at the price guidelines and the listed price of the staves in the PRD, are those price suggestions suppossed to be the cost to create? Because every staff I have 'reverse-engineered' so far is close to twice the price listed in the guidelines (400 gp x highest level spell x caster + 75% of next highest level spell + 50% of all other spells).
That is . . . wierd. Every other price in the guidelines is listed as market value, with the creation cost being half. Was this deliberate?
Master Arminas
Ok, let's take a look at the Staff of Evocation from the CRD (basically all of the school staffs are the same).
Magic Missile (1 charge; 1st level)
Shatter (1 charge; 2nd level)
Fireball (1 charge; 3rd level)
Ice Storm (2 charges; 4th level)
Wall of Force (2 charges; 5th level)
Chain Lightning (3 charges; 6th level)
Caster level is 13th.
Chain lightning is (400 gp x 6 x 13) divided by three for a total of 10,400 gp.
Wall of Force is (400 gp x 5 x 13 x .75) divided by two for a total of 9,750 gp.
Ice Storm is (400 gp x 4 x 13 x .5) divided by two for a total of 5,200 gp.
Fireball is (400 gp x 3 x 13 x .5) for a total of 7,800 gp.
Shatter is (400 gp x 2 x 13 x .5) for a total of 5,200 gp.
Magic Missile is (400 gp x 1 x 13 x .5) for a total of 2,600 gp.
Total is 40,950 gp. However, the market price for this staff is listed at 82,000 gp with a creation cost of 41,000 gp.
And the Staff of Bolstering from the APG.
Bear's Endurance (2nd level; 1 charge)
Bull's Strength (2nd level; 1 charge)
Cat's Grace (2nd level; 1 charge)
Greater Magic Weapon (3rd level; 1 charge)
Caster level is 8th.
Greater Magic Weapon is (400 gp x 3 x 8) for a total of 9,600 gp.
Bear's Endurance is (400 gp x 2 x 8 x .75) for a total of 4,800 gp.
Bull's Strength is (400 gp x 2 x 8 x .5) for a total of 3,200 gp.
Cat's Grace is (400 gp x 2 x 8 x .5) for a total of 3,200 gp.
Total is 20,800 gp. The market price for this staff is listed at 20,800 gp with a creation cost of 10,400 gp.
The rest of the staves from the CRD and APG generally follow this pattern. Meaning, that as a rule of thumb, either the CRD staves are over priced by x2 or the APG staves are under-priced by half. Something is not kosher here.
Master Arminas
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Staff of wishful thinking breakdown:
...
So wish for three charges costs 437,066.67gp
Limited wish for one charge costs 110,700gp.Together the staff has a final market value of 547,766.67gp.
I get the same numbers. However by the core book examples that is the cost. The price is double the cost. Though if you go by APG examples it is the price.
There again almost none of the examples include the material component costs in either Core or APG.
Though not so much run in game if this wizard were "real" it could be a great money maker. Though admitedly a HUGE investment of time and money up front. It'd be great for getting rich, but I think most DM's wouldn't go for it unless they are great supporters of organic world development.
Well it's already trivially easy to get free wishes at 13th level, so if you just want to use it to get rich, it's just one thing on the ever expanding list of ways to producing money in D&D. There are plenty of ways, and lots of them don't require you to be 13th level. :P
Idea 1)In previous editions Wish allowed the creation of magic items below a certain amount (I think it was 2500, but I don't truly remember). If DM allows it *Poof* low level custom item creation. I think the price had to do with the material component cost. Theoretically, one still could create stuff, magic or otherwise, that is equal or less than the material component cost. Do this 10 times (with someone who can/will buy whatever you make) and you've just recouped your losses.
Well, this was one of the common abuses of wish in 3.x. You were allowed to create magic items up to any value, but it had an XP cost. You could just simulacrum a genie, bind a genie, be a chosen of Mystra, or half a dozen other tricks to ignore the XP cost and wish for not just minor magic items, but literally anything you wanted. If you wanted a CL 1,000,000 suit of armor that gave +3,000 to all your stats, and had every beneficial spell in the game continuous and every offensive spell quickened, it was do-able.
They fixed that of course. ^-^
Idea 2) Sell inherient bonuses. No doubht the super wealthy would be excited for the opportunity to boost their Int/cha/etc.
This is a legitimately cool idea, and makes a lot of sense. Good one.
idea 3) you have friggin WISH AT WILL. No doubt a hyper intelligent 18+ level mage can figure a way less crass than the first two ideas to leverage this power and recouperate his investment quickly.
Definitely. Fabricate pretty much gets all your cash back immediately, because your Int is so high you can just create art objects out of raw materials that are worth thousands of gold pieces.
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I always liked the staff of genesis 1/day. You can build your own world with that. Just keep using it regularly to expand your plane by 200 ft in all directions (which means it keeps getting drastically larger with each casting). Create an Intelligent magic item (like a golem) whose purpose is to expand the universe, give it a huge bonus to UMD, and let it just chill somewhere in your world expanding it infinitely.
idea 3) you have friggin WISH AT WILL. No doubt a hyper intelligent 18+ level mage can figure a way less crass than the first two ideas to leverage this power and recouperate his investment quickly.
Definitely. Fabricate pretty much gets all your cash back immediately, because your Int is so high you can just create art objects out of raw materials that are worth thousands of gold pieces.=======================
I always liked the staff of genesis 1/day. You can build your own world with that. Just keep using it regularly to expand your plane by 200 ft in all directions (which means it keeps getting drastically larger with each casting). Create an Intelligent magic item (like a golem) whose purpose is to expand the universe, give it a huge bonus to UMD, and let it just chill somewhere in your world expanding it infinitely.
Add permanency with the right amount of diamond dust (or whatever) and have it be permanently increased. There is a thread around here somewhere about "making earth."
Add permanency with the right amount of diamond dust (or whatever) and have it be permanently increased. There is a thread around here somewhere about "making earth."idea 3) you have friggin WISH AT WILL. No doubt a hyper intelligent 18+ level mage can figure a way less crass than the first two ideas to leverage this power and recouperate his investment quickly.
Definitely. Fabricate pretty much gets all your cash back immediately, because your Int is so high you can just create art objects out of raw materials that are worth thousands of gold pieces.=======================
I always liked the staff of genesis 1/day. You can build your own world with that. Just keep using it regularly to expand your plane by 200 ft in all directions (which means it keeps getting drastically larger with each casting). Create an Intelligent magic item (like a golem) whose purpose is to expand the universe, give it a huge bonus to UMD, and let it just chill somewhere in your world expanding it infinitely.
The only thing that makes making earth somewhat tricky is just filling it with stuff D&D considers a valuable mineral, such as silver, copper, gold, adamantine, mithral, etc. All other aspects of creation can be lifted strait out of the Torah/Christian Bible.
1) Cast genesis to create the world which starts out pretty small but rapidly expands, and then expands faster if you have it spammed at least 1/week.
2) Cast polymorph any object a lot.
You can take a rock from your wasteland world and turn it into a seed. Turn the seed into a seed into a tree and it becomes permanent. Turn the branches of this tree into all the different plants you desire.
Take a bit of dirt, and create life. Turn that bit of dirt into a human, then cast the spell again to make it a permanent human. Take a piece of that human and make a permanent mate for that human. offspring of said humans aren't part of the spell effect, so they're real humans.
Etc, etc, etc.
A 3.5 wizard can replicate every act of God in the christian bible by 17th level, including creating the universe, all life within it, part oceans, summon every angel in existence in an instant, raise the dead, heal the sick, spread plagues, slay the first born son of your enemies, create food and water, make water from rocks, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Pathfinder wizards were toned down...slightly. :3
Permanent spells can be dispelled.
Permanent spells can be dispelled.
Of course they can. But if you have Human A that was a rock, and human B that was a rock, and they mate to make human C, D, and E, they were never rocks, and aren't part of the spell. They are real humans. They are no more dispel-able than the damage caused by a monster that was a rock.
Which was my point. You create a creature that is the result of a spell. However, new creatures created through mating, pollination, etc, would be entirely real.
Ashiel, you cannot cascade polymorph any object castings to make something go from temporary to permanent. There is a rule under the polymorph subschool that says you can only ever have one polymorph effect active at a time.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
As you can see, you probably could go from one form to the next with multiple castings, but the duration will always be based on the target's original form because once you cast it the previous version of the spell ends. Might as well go straight from dirt to living creatures.
EDIT: As for making new creatures through mating/pollination, I suppose this is possible, but is made more difficult as the above rule will limit the duration in a great many instances.
That does throw a bit of a slow down into it. The 3.5 version could be chain-cast to make the duration permanent until dispelled, and I'm not entirely sold that it doesn't work like that in PF since I'm pretty sure it's based on what you are when you cast the spell (original state being whatever state it was before transmuting it).
Not that it really matters to me though. Even if it doesn't work in PF like it did in 3.5, there's nothing lost by the chance except flavor. It's still more than usable for necromancy shenanigans.
Gather some minerals, via stone wall. Shape them with fabricate. Turn them into a skeleton. Turn that skeleton into either an undead creature or a living version of itself.
EDIT: Alternatively, go the alternate route. Simulacrum up a pair of humans and then have them breed up some new humans. Same result, though the simulacrums don't have their own will, so it kind of takes some of the fun out of playing god.
Well it's already trivially easy to get free wishes at 13th level, so if you just want to use it to get rich, it's just one thing on the ever expanding list of ways to producing money in D&D. There are plenty of ways, and lots of them don't require you to be 13th level. :PCan you tell me how exactly you'd get free wishes by casting a 7th level spell? You can't do it by Summon Monster btw as summoned monsters can't use an ability which replicates a spell with an expensive material component. Only called ones can and the spells to do that aren't free.
Summon Monster? No. Planar Binding? Yes. See, Djinn can't grant themselves wishes, but they can grant mortals wishes. So you trade one of your wishes for two of your three wishes. Any GM who isn't metagaming solely for the sake of preventing people from having those wishes is going to go, "Hmmm, if I were a Genie, and this guy pulls me to the side and says he wants to make some wishes, but one of the wishes I get to choose, would I say no? HELL NO."
This used to be really abusable back when Wish created magic items (as I noted before), but since Wish has been toned down so heavily, it's merely a convenient way of getting your inherent modifiers. I've had groups where my players did this very thing. In fact, the party's conjurer actually made a deal with five genies who agreed to provide her wishes in exchange for wishes. So she gave everyone in the party +5 inherent modifiers to their ability scores, and all of those genies got +5 inherent modifiers to their ability scores too, after a while. Making them the envy of many of their Genie peers. :P
But I can say with the utmost faith, the game continues to go on. Wish isn't what it used to be by any means. You can't wish for wealth anymore, nor magic items, so it's more or less just a way to mimic some spells of 8th, 7th, or 6th level, grab some inherent modifiers, or raise a party member with a negative level, use for traveling, or for undoing a misfortune within the past 6 seconds. The majority of those options aren't useful outside of battle (where you will be getting the wishes).
Summon Monster? No. Planar Binding? Yes. See, Djinn can't grant themselves wishes, but they can grant mortals wishes. So you trade one of your wishes for two of your three wishes. Any GM who isn't metagaming solely for the sake of preventing people from having those wishes is going to go, "Hmmm, if I were a Genie, and this guy pulls me to the side and says he wants to make some wishes, but one of the wishes I get to choose, would I say no? HELL NO."I feel like I'm in an episode of Fairly Odd Parents where it's time to pull out a copy of Da Rules.
And one of them for me, is you can't pay a genie with one of it's own wishes.
The rules are pretty clear. They can grant wishes to non-Genies. So look here Al, I can't wish myself out of this lamp. Oh, you'll wish me out of this lamp? Are you sure? My that's pretty swell of you Al.
I also don't like the implication you make that GM's trying to prevent RAW abuse are "metagaming". Because a player pulling something like this is clearly a metagaming cheese weasel.
Or just like Aladdin, and has ranks in Knowledge (Planes). I cannot think of a logical reason why Djinn would turn down such an offer. Especially Efreeti who are usually selfish enough to not care what you're going to do with the wishes as long as they get their wishes.
And by the way, inherent bonuses don't stack unless the wishes are granted in quick succession.
Which is why they had five genies. That way they could have the wish spell cast in succession quickly. In this case, they had a summoning room, five genies around the person to be augmented, and the genies would all cast wish in succession, resulting in +1, +2, +3, +4, +5. They could provide 2/6 ability scores a +5 in this manner per day, and one of the genies a +5 in this manner per day.
It only took up 18 seconds of the Genies day, and the genies got to enjoy being the genies they called up (if you identify the outsider to be called, it always calls that outsider). So 5 party members vs 5 genies took a total of 30 days to give everyone a +5 inherent modifier to every ability score.
Permanent spells can be dispelled.
Not this one. Note the bold in the spoiler.
The plane cannot be dispelled, but a creature on the plane can destroy it by using limited wish , mage's disjunction , miracle , or wish and making a successful dispel check.
So, using the magic trait of the greater version, you say Only I can cast Limited wish, Mages Disjunction, miracle, or wish within my demiplane. That should make your plane undispellable short of intervention of a deity.
School conjuration (creation); Level cleric 9, sorcerer/wizard 9, witch 9
Casting Time 6 hours
Components V, S, F (a forked metal rod worth at least 500 gp)
Effect extradimensional demiplane, up to 20 10-ft. cubes/level (S)
This spell functions as create demiplane , except the area is larger and you can add more features to the plane. You can use this spell to expand a demiplane you created with lesser create demiplane or create demiplane (you do not need to create an entirely new plane using this spell), in which case it has a duration of 1 day/level. Alternatively, when cast within your demiplane, you may add to your demiplane (or remove from it) one of the following features (or any of the features described in create demiplane ) with each casting of the spell, in which case it has an instantaneous duration.
Energy : Your plane gains the (minor) negative- or positive-dominant energy trait ( see Elemental and Energy Traits ). A plane cannot have both the negative-dominant and positive-dominant energy traits.
Magic : Your plane gains the dead magic, enhanced magic, impeded magic, or wild magic planar trait (see Magic Traits, GameMastery Guide 187). If you selected dead magic, you are trapped within your plane unless it has a permanent planar portal (such as the portal feature, below). If you selected enhanced or impeded magic, choose one type of magic to be enhanced or impeded, such as “effects with the fire descriptor or that manipulate fire” or “death spells and spells from the Death or Repose domains.” A plane cannot be enhanced and impeded for the same kinds of spells.
Morphic : You may use move earth at will in your demiplane at one-tenth of the spell's normal casting time, and can reshape normal plants in the same manner (such as by twisting trees into a fence or humanlike shapes). You are even able to affect rock formations with this ability, though the casting time for this is only half normal.
Portal : Your demiplane gains a permanent gate to one location on another plane, which can only be used for planar travel. This location must be very familiar to you. This gate is always open and usable from both sides, but you can secure it using normal means (such as by building a door around it).
Time : By default, time passes at the normal rate in your demiplane. By selecting this feature, you may make your plane have the erratic time, flowing time (half or double normal time), or timeless trait (see Time ).
You can make this spell permanent with the permanency spell, at a cost of 22,500 gp. If you have cast create greater demiplane multiple times to enlarge the demiplane, each casting's area requires its own permanency spell.
Create Demiplane, Lesser
School conjuration (creation); Level cleric 7, sorcerer/wizard 7, summoner 5, witch 7
Casting Time 2 hours
Components V, S, F (a forked metal rod worth at least 500 gp)
Range 0 ft.
Effect extradimensional demiplane, up to three 10-ft. cubes/level (S)
Duration 1 day/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You create a small, finite demiplane. You must be on the Astral or Ethereal Plane or on a plane that has access to one of those planes (such as the Material Plane) to cast this spell.
When you cast the spell, you decide whether the demiplane is within the Astral or the Ethereal Plane. It is filled with air or water (decided by you). The plane is generally flat and featureless, such as an earth, stone, water, or wood floor. The “walls” and “ceiling” of the plane may appear like solid earth, stone, wood, or water, or they may end in mist, a featureless void, or a similar unreal-looking border. The plane's environmental conditions are those of a temperate spring day on the Material Plane. You determine the plane's light level (bright, normal, dim, or darkness), which affects the entire plane.
There are no native creatures or plants on this plane, though you may bring some there (if the plane's light is bright or normal, it counts as sunlight for growing plants). The environment of the plane counts as normal terrain for the purpose of effects that target earth, stone, wood, and so on. For example, you could use move earth to create a hill or wall of stone to create a barricade.
When you finish casting this spell, you may bring yourself and up to seven other creatures to the plane automatically by joining hands in a circle. The demiplane is another plane of existence, and therefore is outside the range of any spell or ability that cannot affect or reach other planes. Creatures can only enter the plane by the use of planar travel magic such as astral projection , etherealness , or plane shift . You are considered “very familiar” with your entire demiplane.
As a standard action, you may eject a creature from your demiplane. The creature may resist with a Will saving throw. An ejected creature goes to the closest plane to your demiplane (usually the Astral Plane or the Ethereal Plane, but if you cast this spell on the Material Plane, the creature is sent to the Material Plane). When the spell ends, the plane dissolves, and all creatures in the plane are ejected in this manner with no saving throw. The plane cannot be dispelled, but a creature on the plane can destroy it by using limited wish , mage's disjunction , miracle , or wish and making a successful dispel check.
If you are within the demiplane, you can add to its area by casting the spell again. Alternatively, you may cast this spell again to reset the duration of an existing area to that of your latest casting. If the duration on one area of the demiplane ends and other parts remain, creatures in the expiring area are shunted to remaining areas. If a collapsing portion of the demiplane would leave one section cut off from other sections of the demiplane (for example, if there were three areas connected in a straight line and the center part expired), the stranded sections count as separate demiplanes under your control. You may reconnect these stranded sections by casting the spell again to create a linked area between the two.
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And by the way, inherent bonuses don't stack unless the wishes are granted in quick succession.
Which is why they had five genies. That way they could have the wish spell cast in succession quickly. In this case, they had a summoning room, five genies around the person to be augmented, and the genies would all cast wish in succession, resulting in +1, +2, +3, +4, +5. They could provide 2/6 ability scores a +5 in this manner per day, and one of the genies a +5 in this manner per day.It only took up 18 seconds of the Genies day, and the genies got to enjoy being the genies they called up (if you identify the outsider to be called, it always calls that outsider). So 5 party members vs 5 genies took a total of 30 days to give everyone a +5 inherent modifier to every ability score.
Though you're correct. My DM would totally screw me on that somehow.
Permanent spells can be dispelled.Not this one. Note the bold in the spoiler.
The plane cannot be dispelled, but a creature on the plane can destroy it by using limited wish , mage's disjunction , miracle , or wish and making a successful dispel check.
So, using the magic trait of the greater version, you say Only I can cast Limited wish, Mages Disjunction, miracle, or wish within my demiplane. That should make your plane undispellable short of intervention of a deity.
Create demiplane can't be dispelled but permanency holding it together can, turnig it's duration from permanent back to 1 day/level.
I am not sure if enhanced/impeded magic trait allows for such specific conditions as "only I can cast (type of spells)". Create greater demiplane lists dead, enhanced, impeded and wild magic traits as available options. Limited magic planar trait, the most appropriate for your idea is not listed so it would be a matter of negotiating with GM.
Permanent spells can be dispelled.Not this one. Note the bold in the spoiler.
The plane cannot be dispelled, but a creature on the plane can destroy it by using limited wish , mage's disjunction , miracle , or wish and making a successful dispel check.
So, using the magic trait of the greater version, you say Only I can cast Limited wish, Mages Disjunction, miracle, or wish within my demiplane. That should make your plane undispellable short of intervention of a deity.
Create demiplane can't be dispelled but permanency holding it together can, turnig it's duration from permanent back to 1 day/level.
I am not sure if enhanced/impeded magic trait allows for such specific conditions as "only I can cast (type of spells)". Create greater demiplane lists dead, enhanced, impeded and wild magic traits as available options. Limited magic planar trait, the most appropriate for your idea is not listed so it would be a matter of negotiating with GM.
Limited Magic : Planes with this trait permit only the use of spells and spell-like abilities that meet particular qualifications. Magic can be limited to effects from certain schools or subschools, effects with certain descriptors, or effects of a certain level (or any combination of these qualities). Spells and spell-like abilities that don't meet the qualifications simply don't work.
I'm sure a smart mage could give so many criteria that only he qualifies.
Though you're correct. My DM would totally screw me on that somehow.Quote:
And by the way, inherent bonuses don't stack unless the wishes are granted in quick succession.
Which is why they had five genies. That way they could have the wish spell cast in succession quickly. In this case, they had a summoning room, five genies around the person to be augmented, and the genies would all cast wish in succession, resulting in +1, +2, +3, +4, +5. They could provide 2/6 ability scores a +5 in this manner per day, and one of the genies a +5 in this manner per day.It only took up 18 seconds of the Genies day, and the genies got to enjoy being the genies they called up (if you identify the outsider to be called, it always calls that outsider). So 5 party members vs 5 genies took a total of 30 days to give everyone a +5 inherent modifier to every ability score.
I just got over the initial Kneejerk reaction. There's little that phases me or causes me to panic these days. It's the 10+ years of no-lifing this game I suppose. After a while, you begin to tell the difference between Yellow, Orange, and Red flags.
For example, how many GMs would rage about +5 inherent modifiers? Ok, now exactly how much does that really effect? +5 = +2.5 to a modifier. That's pretty much it. DCs go up by 2.5, the fighter gets +3.5 damage, etc. Is that a drastic change? Heck no. Does it make the PCs happy? Why yes. Does it throw the plot off the rails? Of course not! Could it lead to new adventures? Sure can.
The first time my players did this, they had been developing a relationship with these Efreeti for a while. Finally, one day the Efreeti tell them that there's a bigass red dragon who has basically come in and declared himself the boss of their home, and the dragon is powerful enough that the efreeti basically can't stop him without a huge loss of life (and as outsiders, it's not a simple matter of raise dead). So the PCs got a side-quest from the main plot to go give aid to the djinn they were becoming friendly with.
Though you're correct. My DM would totally screw me on that somehow.Quote:
And by the way, inherent bonuses don't stack unless the wishes are granted in quick succession.
Which is why they had five genies. That way they could have the wish spell cast in succession quickly. In this case, they had a summoning room, five genies around the person to be augmented, and the genies would all cast wish in succession, resulting in +1, +2, +3, +4, +5. They could provide 2/6 ability scores a +5 in this manner per day, and one of the genies a +5 in this manner per day.It only took up 18 seconds of the Genies day, and the genies got to enjoy being the genies they called up (if you identify the outsider to be called, it always calls that outsider). So 5 party members vs 5 genies took a total of 30 days to give everyone a +5 inherent modifier to every ability score.
I just got over the initial Kneejerk reaction. There's little that phases me or causes me to panic these days. It's the 10+ years of no-lifing this game I suppose. After a while, you begin to tell the difference between Yellow, Orange, and Red flags.
For example, how many GMs would rage about +5 inherent modifiers? Ok, now exactly how much does that really effect? +5 = +2.5 to a modifier. That's pretty much it. DCs go up by 2.5, the fighter gets +3.5 damage, etc. Is that a drastic change? Heck no. Does it make the PCs happy? Why yes. Does it throw the plot off the rails? Of course not! Could it lead to new adventures? Sure can.
The first time my players did this, they had been developing a relationship with these Efreeti for a while. Finally, one day the Efreeti tell them that there's a bigass red dragon who has basically come in and declared himself the boss of their home, and the dragon is powerful enough that the efreeti basically can't stop him without a huge loss of life (and as outsiders, it's not a simple matter of raise dead). So the PCs got a side-quest from the main...
My DM would nix it due to knee jerk reaction. Though I am playing a game where I might have the opportunity to do just that.
Frankly Efriette would be fools not to bargain for a wish or two for just this reason. Get 30 efreette and one mortal. Each efriette gets two wishes of their choice (which they would need to have writteen and perused ahead of time by the mortal).
Mortal makes a list. mortal uses 1 of 3 wishes for his bonues per efriette and the efriette gets 2 wishes as payment. In the case of the dragon issue 60 consecutive wishes can make a large dent in that problem. Plus the mortal now has a +5 per stat.
Yes, 30 efriette would be alot and you could do it with fewer at the expense of time. Also there is A LOT of room for screwing up, but a sasvy high int character could probably pull it off with minimal risk.
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My DM would nix it due to knee jerk reaction. Though I am playing a game where I might have the opportunity to do just that.
Most GMs, especially those who lack experience, generally have this reaction. I seriously think things through though. When my players opted to do this, it was in a 3.5 game, and instead of having a debate with them, I sat down and talked to them and addressed a few of my concerns. Now the 3.5 version of wish allowed for far, far more than Pathfinder wish does.
I didn't even stop them from wishing for money. Instead, I explained that if they wanted to do it like this, we needed to change the campaign a bit. I explained they were already high level, and finding magic items for sale that were relevant to them was becoming harder anyway, so I proposed that they could indeed have access to infinite money, but would essentially need to craft everything themselves. They were alright with this. The only effect this really had on their power was it meant they tended to be pretty capped in their goodies (they generally were wearing the best gear for their level range).
I also explained clearly that if they wanted to go this route, I would have to errata the ability to wish for magic items, because they could just wish for a magic item that does everything, and the game would effectively be over. They agreed that was fine, and they didn't need to wish for god-items anyway.
So they had their genie friends from 13th level, and the campaign ended somewhere around 25-30 ECL. So it went on for another 10+ levels without a hitch. The fact they essentially had unlimited monetary resources actually didn't make them stronger, but it did make them get into the game more. Suddenly they had extra cash to begin working on projects that would have been overlooked. They took some time off to start a town. Built an underground road to Neverwinter. The party's spellcasters got together and built an airship and named it. The party's wizard started a college for wizardry that welcomed gifted students from the peasantry (because the party's wizard's backstory was he learned the basics from a wandering wizard though he was just a farmboy, and he wanted others to have the same chance).
The game quickly shifted focus from trying to amass more wealth for that next big purchase to focusing entirely on the campaign, the people, the places, and so forth. The players because less interested in their gear and more interested in their characters developing, righting wrongs, and working on grand scale things. Suddenly, time and effort were the commodities they traded in. The game somehow became deeper accidentally, and I can only say it was for the better.
If you feel like your GM would have a knee jerk reaction, I would be happy to have a chat with him online somewhere and discuss how to keep your game from flying off the rails (though I think the GM should probably rip the rails up and add hovercars instead), and avoid fearing PCs getting stronger. I can also tell him lots of tricks that he can expect, be on the lookout for, how to adapt to them, and even use them in his own plots.
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Mortal makes a list. mortal uses 1 of 3 wishes for his bonues per efriette and the efriette gets 2 wishes as payment. In the case of the dragon issue 60 consecutive wishes can make a large dent in that problem. Plus the mortal now has a +5 per stat.
Indeed they could. Of course, the dragon was really very strong. It was a concerted effort, but the dragon was very well prepared. He probably spent a lot of time ironing out his plans for Efreeti domination, including dominating efreeti and having them grant him wishes at his behest, which was a point in the dragon's favor. They eventually defeated the dragon, however, and were honored as heroes by the Efreeti, and were gifted with favors, honors, and slaves (which the party subsequently freed, as they neither condoned nor had use for slaves; especially since the lich-kobold in the party used undead servants and was heavily geared towards running his city as a free-city).
Yes, 30 efriette would be alot and you could do it with fewer at the expense of time. Also there is A LOT of room for screwing up, but a sasvy high int character could probably pull it off with minimal risk.
Honestly, Efreeti have Int 12 and Wis 14. By this time, the wizard probably has an Int score around 26 easily (18-20 base, +3 for levels, +3-4 enhancement). The wizard could take 10 on an Intelligence check for Linguistics and out savvy a trained lawyer (who probably has a +5-8). Heaven forbid the wizard actually have ranks in the skill (all mine max it), since that would be taking 10 for a 10 + 16 + 8 = 34 easily. There is virtually no way that any normal efreeti is going to be able to catch you in some sort of loop.
Hmm, duly noted on the effects of having infinite money.
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Hmm, duly noted on the effects of having infinite money.
There's a few things to consider. One, in core, you can't easily buy magic items in excess of a certain value. In 3.5, that value was 100,000 gp. In Pathfinder, it's a mere 16,000 gp unless you're using the optional stuff from the Gamemastery Guide. So anything you want generally needs to be crafted, found, or quested for (rolling NPC favors into "questing").
Now, the only issue you might run into is that not all magic items are listed as having hard-coded caster level requirements. For example, you have to have a CL equal to enhancement bonus * 3 to craft weapons & armor, so you're more or less capped on static mods by your level for weapons and armor. However, for other types of mods, such as the enhancement bonuses for ability scores there is no such cap, so with large amounts of time, they can craft items of greater than +6 relatively easily (then again, RAW, you already can, despite the Devs noting in the FAQ that +6 is the biggest expected pre-epic*).
So if your party does use any of the myriad of ways of getting infinite money, you may wish to set a simple progression for common static modifiers. The CL * 3 works for enhancement bonus items as well (so +1 at 3rd level, +6 at 18th level, +7 at 21st level, etc). No problems. You can even use the same calculations as normal (+8 mod costs 64,000 gp, btw).
So I'd seriously consider implementing this little adjustment if you find yourself in this situation in the future.
Yeah, that'd be wise to implement. This does leave the big question of Sorc vs. Wizard. You can't give full access to both because the sorc will come out ahead because of spontaneity. It is expected that the wizard spends at least some of his WBL on spells because otherwise sorcerer comes out knowing more spells. How would you draw the line?
Yeah, that'd be wise to implement. This does leave the big question of Sorc vs. Wizard. You can't give full access to both because the sorc will come out ahead because of spontaneity. It is expected that the wizard spends at least some of his WBL on spells because otherwise sorcerer comes out knowing more spells. How would you draw the line?
Wizards spend a trivial amount on spells most of the time. Check the magic section. The cost of spells is much cheaper than just buying scrolls of them. The effect is essentially negligible, as wizards get more spells known, sorcerers get more wands & staffs, and everybody is happy. Sorcerer is still the redheaded stepchild since they have their own problems that put them in the wizards' shadows, but at least with nigh infinite resources, the sorcerer has a chance if he can amass lots of spell-trigger items.
The only concern really is pearls. Honestly, my players didn't even care about pearls since they had enough spells per day to keep going on well through an adventure, so it just meant extra bookkeeping, but with enough time to craft enough pearls, the wizard essentially has infinite casting. Consider allowing the wizard a number of spell levels worth of pearls equal to their caster level * 2.5. So a 20th level wizard could have one pearl of every level. Or you could just forget pearls since they can make it up with spell-triggers, and pearls are already just another reason on a long list as to why sorcerers suck in comparison.
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A staff with all the Remove [Blank] is really nice for a Cleric. Whenever you need one of those spells, you seem to need 4 of them. You almost never know which one you're going to need.
Staffs are great for Use Magic Device users. Your caster level is 1d20 + your UMD modifier - 20. With a relatively high Charisma (+6) and a Circlet of Persusasion, you can get a +25 on the roll by level 10, +32 if you spend a trait (Dangerously Curious) and feat (Skill Focus).
My next PC is probably going to be a Charisma maxed Half-elf Paladin with Skill Focus Use Magic Device and the Dangerously Curious trait. He'll be able to tank, heal, face, and pinch-hit spellcast.
Staffs are great for Use Magic Device users. Your caster level is 1d20 + your UMD modifier - 20. With a relatively high Charisma (+6) and a Circlet of Persusasion, you can get a +25 on the roll by level 10, +32 if you spend a trait (Dangerously Curious) and feat (Skill Focus).
My next PC is probably going to be a Charisma maxed Half-elf Paladin with Skill Focus Use Magic Device and the Dangerously Curious trait. He'll be able to tank, heal, face, and pinch-hit spellcast.
How will he recharge the staff?
How will he recharge the staff?Staffs are great for Use Magic Device users. Your caster level is 1d20 + your UMD modifier - 20. With a relatively high Charisma (+6) and a Circlet of Persusasion, you can get a +25 on the roll by level 10, +32 if you spend a trait (Dangerously Curious) and feat (Skill Focus).
My next PC is probably going to be a Charisma maxed Half-elf Paladin with Skill Focus Use Magic Device and the Dangerously Curious trait. He'll be able to tank, heal, face, and pinch-hit spellcast.
You could probably pay someone to recharge it.
Spellcasting services are caster level × spell level × 10 gp, after all.
How will he recharge the staff?Staffs are great for Use Magic Device users. Your caster level is 1d20 + your UMD modifier - 20. With a relatively high Charisma (+6) and a Circlet of Persusasion, you can get a +25 on the roll by level 10, +32 if you spend a trait (Dangerously Curious) and feat (Skill Focus).
My next PC is probably going to be a Charisma maxed Half-elf Paladin with Skill Focus Use Magic Device and the Dangerously Curious trait. He'll be able to tank, heal, face, and pinch-hit spellcast.
Allied spellcaster, either from the party, or a big wig from his Church or Knighthood. That's what my current dragon shaman does. He uses a staff of fire, and we have the party battle sorcerer recharge it in our down time. Pathfinder is all about teamwork!
Actually, I believe that UMD check allows you to emulate the required CL to trigger a spell, it doesn't actually give you the caster level.
So, you could trigger a spell or read a scroll you shouldn't be able to, but it would go off at the default caster level of the spell/scroll/staff, since you don't have a CL for the staff to work off of.
Remember, UMD just satisfies trigger conditions, i.e. you qualify. It doens't actually GIVE you any ability. You can fool a magic item into working, but you don't actually gain any ability.
So, no, artificially buffing your UMD skill to emulate CL 50 just means you could potentially trigger a staff with a level 25 spell in it, it doesn't mean the staff's spell goes off at CL 50. 'Qualify to use' is not 'boost magic item.'
==Aelryinth
Oh, man!!!! I was combining the Emulate a Class Feature and Activate a Wand uses. Boo!!!!