If an alchemist has two right hands (or left, in the case of a left handed alchemist) due to the vestigial arm discovery, does the new arm count as an off-hand for the sake of penalties? Can he carry a weapon in both right hands and choose which one to use as his off-hand on any given round?
Our group is entirely stumped by this, and our Alchemist/Rogue (Vivisectionist/Knife Master) wants to know if he can hold a kukri in one right hand for the purpose of extra sneak attack damage, while at the same time holding a morningstar in the other right since it does more for regular hits. Is that legal, or would all hands but his original right hand count as off-hands?
I pretty sure there is no "off hand" unless you use twf
I pretty sure there is no "off hand" unless you use twf
In the case of TWF however, let's say he attacks with his morningstar and kukri, each in one of his right hands. Is he allowed to choose which right is the off-hand? Is neither an off-hand? Or is the vestigial right always the off-hand of the two of them?
The following text is from the multiweapon fighting feat:
A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two- Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. [/qoute]
The following text is from the multiweapon fighting feat:
A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two- Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Ah, well then he definitely doesn't have two primary hands, and it sounds like the vestigials are all off-hands and can't be switched. Unfortunate, but thanks for finding that. It helped. ^_^
Your welcome. My suggestion is actually take the multiweapon fighting feat. That way you could get four attacks in one round without a high BAB and only a small penalty. Or you could find a way to get claw attacks, then you'd get four attacks without a penalty.
|
A vestigial arm can't give an alchemist more attacks than normal. The text doesn't seem to prevent him taking better attacks than normal - for example, wielding a two-handed weapon in two hands and a light weapon in the third hand. Further, by a quick paraphrase, the vestigial arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as well as the alchemist's original arms, so I believe the alchemist could count it as his primary hand.
If a creature uses the two-weapon fighting option in a full attack to take more melee attacks with manufactured weapons or unarmed strikes than it could normally get based on its Base Attack Bonus, the creature has one primary hand and the others are off-hands.
The Two-Weapon Fighting feat reduces penalties for the primary hand and one off-hand. This means that if a creature has three hands and uses the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, one of its hands and any weapon it wields with that hand takes full off-hand penalties without benefit of the feat.
Multi-Weapon Fighting reduces penalties for the primary hand and all off-hands.
A vestigial arm can't give an alchemist more attacks than normal. The text doesn't seem to prevent him taking better attacks than normal - for example, wielding a two-handed weapon in two hands and a light weapon in the third hand. Further, by a quick paraphrase, the vestigial arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as well as the alchemist's original arms, so I believe the alchemist could count it as his primary hand.
Hmm... So a four-armed half-orc alchemist could be dual-wielding greataxes by 4th level with little more penalty than any other two-weapon fighter? Something about that seems almost too good to be true...
...The Two-Weapon Fighting feat reduces penalties for the primary hand and one off-hand. This means that if a creature has three hands and uses the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, one of its hands and any weapon it wields with that hand takes full off-hand penalties without benefit of the feat.
Multi-Weapon Fighting reduces penalties for the primary hand and all off-hands.
I see, forgot to consider that.
I believe he's only carrying his 3 weapons for the purpose of having access to slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning damage without having to switch out weapons, and that the normal method of attack would be to just use the kukri and morningstar for the most part, and not his third weapon. I'll remind him that attacking with all three at once will suffer big penalties while he's still just got the two-weapon fighting feat though. Thanks.
|
|
Actually, though he technically qualifies for the multiweapon fighting feat, he cannot gain benefit from it. This is a developer ruling that may not make sense, but is for balance. He can use two weapon fighting to gain an extra attack, but he cannot make three attacks until he has a high enough BAB. I also suggest him using stingchucks, the cheapest splash weapon available.
|
I think "two weapon fighting" is actually only a descriptive name and the feat is more about getting an extra attack each turn. The extra arm discovery says nothing itself about fighting any lesser or being any weaker, in fact, it specifies they work just as well as original hands and arms. I think a player should be able to dictate any turn what hand/weapon is considered primary. I believe only taking a extra attack should induce the twf penalties or this off hand stuff.
Consider this, you have a pc equipped with both a fire cold iron short sword and ice silver short sword. He sees the ac is high and hard to hit, then learns the enery is fire resistant and/or has dr/silver. Why bother to take penalties with twf? Just instead attack regular with the ice silver short sword. If another monster with fire weakness and no dr shows up and provokes an attack of opportunity, take the aoo with the fire sword. No penalties to att/dam to any of these attacks because twf is really more about getting an extra attack. It is less about the complexity of controlling two simultaneous threatening weapons, that is more the descriptive reasoning behind the rules mechanics to balance out the benefit of extra attacks vs sword & board or thw styles.
I enjoy using an alchemist using 4 arms and a tentacle. I typically have him wield a 2hw w/ reach, a shield and keep a hand free to throw bombs or grab what ever wand/potion needed or whatever, formally wielded an axe to threaten adjacent before gaining the tentacle. The tentacle still threatens up close. The tentacle specifically mentions it gives an extra attack but utilizes the penalties of combining natural attacks with manufactures weapon attacks. The arms say nothing about penalties or extra attacks so I could attack with the 2hw or an axe in hand 3 but not both unless invoking extra att penalties.
Reading this thread and writing this has made me wonder if I should take the penalties for combining the tentacle attack with the manufactured weapon attack when taking an aoo with the tentacle. Would how I spent my last turn matter?
I also wonder how that 4armed 2 great axe person would apply str damage. Guessing 1+1/2 for primary but what about the second pair of arms? Half as normal twf penalties? Or still 1&1/2 since it is being wielded in 2 hands? Guessing there should be some sort of penalty to damage to go along wit the methods of 2wf rules, maybe regular damage? don't forget the attack penalties for the bonus attack coming from a weapon equal size of the primarily attack.
I lost track, how many cans of worms hae been opened?
|
|
I also wonder how that 4armed 2 great axe person would apply str damage. Guessing 1+1/2 for primary but what about the second pair of arms? Half as normal twf penalties? Or still 1&1/2 since it is being wielded in 2 hands? Guessing there should be some sort of penalty to damage to go along wit the methods of 2wf rules, maybe regular damage?
This came up earlier in relation to eidolons. I believe he would both halve his STR modifier for wielding the weapon in his off-hand(s) and multiply by 1.5 for using a two-handed weapon, for a combined multiplier of 0.75. Double Slice would adjust this to 1.0.
don't forget the attack penalties for the bonus attack coming from a weapon equal size of the primarily attack.
The options are either that the off-hand weapon is light, or the off-hand weapon is not light. This means that he would take increased penalties for using a two-handed weapon in two hands and a one-handed weapon in a third hand. (If some off-hand weapons are light and others are non-light, I think the worse penalty applies for each weapon, so the primary weapon and non-light off-hand weapons take higher penalties and light off-hand weapons take reduced penalties.)
At the start of you turn one of your hands is your main. All others are off hands. You can't have any more attacks than normal from this so if you have twf and a 4 BAB you choose two hands to make attack.