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In their mind, they're not punishing the waiter by not giving them a tip, they're just not rewarding...
Right...
That's why I just love to give someone my money that a) EXPECTS it from me (you know, for doing the job they were hired to do), and b) that I have to constantly remind that I still have not received my drink refill...
I've worked jobs where I got tips, and never once did I think I was EVER entitled to a tip for fulfilling the requirements of my job description (i.e. serving people)...
Do a lousy job, get a lousy tip...
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Exactly. You don't get tips for doing your job. You get tips for doing more than your job. You give above expected service, not the minimum necessary to get the job done.
I tip to reward people who give me good service, not service. If the guy brings me my drink refills before I need them, and asks if everything is good, and asks if I want anything else, and does this several times, then he get's a good tip.
If I have to ask him for clean silverware twice, and flag him down 3 times for a refill, and I have to flag down another waiter to tell him/her to go get my waiter so I can pay the check, then guess what? He did the minimum he had to to get me served (he took the order and brought my food and a drink, and didn't do anything else). So he get's no tip. Not as a punishment, but because he didn't earn a tip.
There's a lot of people in the world it seems who feel like trust fund babies, they are owed things. I never once had anything handed to me on a silver platter. I earned everything I have. I worked part time at 15 to afford school, I'm still paying off my college loans, I worked my *** off to get where I am, and I earned it. The concept that someone could demand the world give them things they didn't earn because they deserve them... it's kind of insulting actually.
The only thing anyone deserves is the equality of opportunities. Then it's up to them to take advantage of them. Everyone does not deserve the equality of outcomes.
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Simply put, we've always just seen XP as a mechanic used to measure character advancement. Not some kind of currency, not some entitled "reward", just a unit of measure to show how far along into that character level we are. No more, no less.
Don't show up? Your character doesn't advance. If someone plays your character in your stead, then we'll give XP, but still not full XP (but generally less risk of death if not played by the actual player). Hypothetically speaking, if you really want your character to advance, and continue in the story without you being there to actually play it regularly, then I'd be happy to turn your character into a NPC.
One session once in a while is no biggie, but anything more than that, and you can't live up to the group's agreed upon commitment to play, and you have basically become a NPC, and that's even IF your character is still in the story at all. Special exceptions can be made, but nobody is ever just entitled to automatic XP. I have a player who has been "out" since April of last year, and if he can come back, I'll bring him in with everyone at the same xp level. Special exception, not the standard. XP is a privilege, not a right.
If you can't commit, then you can't. Plain and simple. If you've really got so much going on in your life that you can't make a regular game, then the obvious truth is you just have too much going on. If you find a group willing to work with that, then that's great! Otherwise, you can't just expect every group to cater. I've had players from all walks of life, and everyone has had a pretty good head on their shoulders regarding what priorities need to come first. Many have dropped out of games for work, family, etc, and no one begrudges them one bit; they are always welcome to come back when they feel the time is right for it.
If your (whoever) group does better by just coasting along with everybody staying at the same advancement(regardless of attendance or in game activity), then keep doing what works, and the rest of us will keep doing what works in our groups best too.
Exactly. You don't get tips for doing your job. You get tips for doing more than your job. You give above expected service, not the minimum necessary to get the job done.
I tip to reward people who give me good service, not service. If the guy brings me my drink refills before I need them, and asks if everything is good, and asks if I want anything else, and does this several times, then he get's a good tip.
If I have to ask him for clean silverware twice, and flag him down 3 times for a refill, and I have to flag down another waiter to tell him/her to go get my waiter so I can pay the check, then guess what? He did the minimum he had to to get me served (he took the order and brought my food and a drink, and didn't do anything else). So he get's no tip. Not as a punishment, but because he didn't earn a tip.
There's a lot of people in the world it seems who feel like trust fund babies, they are owed things. I never once had anything handed to me on a silver platter. I earned everything I have. I worked part time at 15 to afford school, I'm still paying off my college loans, I worked my *** off to get where I am, and I earned it. The concept that someone could demand the world give them things they didn't earn because they deserve them... it's kind of insulting actually.
The only thing anyone deserves is the equality of opportunities. Then it's up to them to take advantage of them. Everyone does not deserve the equality of outcomes.
I approve of this message. This one sees not only how things are, but why people want something for nothing--a sense of entitlement at odds with their contributions. Trust fund babies, I like that.
I don't really see how tipping waiters should be the same as giving XPs to PCs who aren't present and adventuring. Should I still tip a waiter who isn't there? What?!?
That said, food customer service typically has a lower minimum wage than pretty much anything else in the US because it is assumed that tipping will make up for it. For those of you not from the US (like low- or no-tipping Canadians), now you know. Tip accordingly. Those of you who know this but still don't customarily tip, you have no excuse.
I don't really see how tipping waiters should be the same as giving XPs to PCs who aren't present and adventuring. Should I still tip a waiter who isn't there? What?!?
That said, food customer service typically has a lower minimum wage than pretty much anything else in the US because it is assumed that tipping will make up for it. For those of you not from the US (like low- or no-tipping Canadians), now you know. Tip accordingly. Those of you who know this but still don't customarily tip, you have no excuse.
Just to add to this, it's staggering how many people don't realize how little waiters actually make per hour in the US. People like to assume they're getting minimum wage (mostly due to the "minimum" part) but they're not. I've worked for some very large, successful restaurant chains and waiters made barely $2.15 per hour, with their claimed tips getting TAXED in addition. Minimum wage in the US is what, $7-something?
So yeah, tip yer waiter. /rantmodeoff
In their mind, they're not punishing the waiter by not giving them a tip, they're just not rewarding...Right...
That's why I just love to give someone my money that a) EXPECTS it from me (you know, for doing the job they were hired to do),
The job they were hired to do pays (in 43 out of the 50 states of the union) far less than minimum wage, because it is expected that they will receive a certain amount in tips to cover the difference.
Right now you should be experiencing a rather immense shame over depriving countless waiters of liveable wages just because they didn't go as far above and beyond the call of duty as you thought they should. In Virginia, for instance, waiters can legally be paid $0.00 per hour. In addition, many restaurants include a "tip-out" policy where waiters must give a certain percentage of the total bill to the restaurant support staff that normally doesn't receive tips. This money is supposed to come out of the tip, but if no tip is left the waiter has to pay for the tip-out from their own pocket, which means they just lost money because they had to serve someone who can't be bothered to learn how tipping works.
I don't really see how tipping waiters should be the same as giving XPs to PCs who aren't present and adventuring. Should I still tip a waiter who isn't there? What?!?
It's not a perfect analogy. It was designed to point out how something can look like not giving out a reward from one end of the transactional relationship, and feel like a punishment on the other. And, in that sense, I think it's done a pretty good job of illustrating exactly that - we've gotten at least four people in here since I posted who think exactly this way about tips - they don't understand what tips are or what they are for, and assume that they must work a certain way ("Tips are a reward for exemplary service, not something you get just for doing your job!"). Meanwhile, the waiters feel (and justifiably so) that they are getting shafted.
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Right now you should be experiencing a rather immense shame over depriving countless waiters of liveable wages just because they didn't go as far above and beyond the call of duty as you thought they should.
I don't...
Customer service is that; service to the customer, me...
I come in, I buy the food, drink or whatever, and they bring it to me. If they choose to ignore me, then I choose to ignore them because I am already paying good money for the product that they offer...
If you depend upon tips to augment your wage, then you better darn well make sure that you provide great customer service...
It's that simple...
As I said, I've worked jobs where I got tips (and yes, they sure did help), but again, I NEVER felt entitled to them. Especially if I knew that I provided a customer with less than adequate service...
Meanwhile, the waiters feel (and justifiably so) that they are getting shafted.
If a waiter gives piss-poor service, and then cries because I did not leave a hefty enough tip, then that's the waiter's problem for not taking ownership of their actions...
It's not a perfect analogy.
No, it certainly isn't.
we've gotten at least four people in here since I posted who think exactly this way about tips - they don't understand what tips are or what they are for,
Are all four of them American?
Right now you should be experiencing a rather immense shame over depriving countless waiters of liveable wages just because they didn't go as far above and beyond the call of duty as you thought they should.I don't...
Customer service is that; service to the customer, me...
I come in, I buy the food, drink or whatever, and they bring it to me. If they choose to ignore me, then I choose to ignore them because I am already paying good money for the product that they offer...
If you depend upon tips to augment your wage, then you better darn well make sure that you provide great customer service...
It's that simple...
Look, you've already told us that you don't give tips to waiters who just do their job, even though it is expected that they receive tips in order to make a liveable wage. And that's really my entire point - if it weren't for people like you, there wouldn't really be any reason to point out the waiter-customer relationship. There are people who don't understand the purpose of tips, and because of that they don't see anything wrong with not giving out a tip for a waiter who merely did his job. Meanwhile, the waiter did his job (even if he didn't do it exceptionally well) and is left with little or nothing (and sometimes less than nothing, quite literally) to show for it.
It's not a perfect analogy.No, it certainly isn't.
we've gotten at least four people in here since I posted who think exactly this way about tips - they don't understand what tips are or what they are for,Are all four of them American?
I think it's pretty likely that at least one of them is, and lives in a state which doesn't require waiters be compensated with minimum wage.
I also think it's telling that the same people who feel like they're justified in not giving out XP to PCs whose players miss games also feel they're justified in not giving tips to waiters who merely do their job. It speaks to a common set of character traits.
I also think it's telling that the same people who feel like they're justified in not giving out XP to PCs whose players miss games also feel they're justified in not giving tips to waiters who merely do their job. It speaks to a common set of character traits.
It does nothing of the sort. In fact, I'd say that they're actually right on one measure. A tip should be over and above what the waiter should receive for doing he job adequately. The American wait staff compensation system perverting the meaning of tip is the root of the problem. I work to ameliorate it by tipping appropriately.
None of that has anything to do with giving out XP or not giving out XP to characters who aren't present.
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you've already told us that you don't give tips to waiters who just do their job, even though it is expected that they receive tips in order to make a liveable wage.
No, what I said was, is that I do not give tips to inattentive waiters. These would be the waiters that I have to constantly flag down to get a drink refill, a new napkin, some more bread stix (or whatever)...
I don't mind giving a tip to the waiter that does their job well (and that being, seeing to the needs of their customers)...
Heck, I even give extra if the waiter goes above and beyond to make sure I'm taken care of...
It does nothing of the sort. In fact, I'd say that they're actually right on one measure. A tip should be over and above what the waiter should receive for doing he job adequately. The American wait staff compensation system perverting the meaning of tip is the root of the problem.
It really doesn't matter what you think should be the case. The reality is that tips are required for waiters to make a living. Furthermore, if tips were not factored into wait staff wages, food and drink prices would rise accordingly in order to make up for the increased wages management would have to pay wait staff.
If your waiter performed his job normally, he deserves 15-20% of the pre-tax bill as tip. If he performed his job to a less-than-adequate degree, he deserves less (depending on the severity of the slight, between 10-15%). If he performed his job exceptionally well, he deserves more (again, depending on the degree, 20-25% and in some cases higher).
None of that has anything to do with giving out XP or not giving out XP to characters who aren't present.
Sure it does. One group (a particular set of DMs) thinks that XP works a certain way, and that not giving out XP is fine because it's a reward for showing up. The other group (players) feels shafted because they miss a few games of D&D (which means they didn't get to play D&D) and are now lagging behind everyone else, relegated to sidekick status in both spirit and mechanics.
No, what I said was,
Actually, that is what you said.
That's why I just love to give someone my money that a) EXPECTS it from me (you know, for doing the job they were hired to do)
You sarcastically derided waiters who expect you to tip them for doing the job they were hired to do. You view this as an unreasonable expectation stemming from entitlement. The waiters view this as not being able to make a living.
The difference in perception (and apparent inability to empathize with the other group, despite claiming to have been a part of it) is what I'm trying to illustrate for you.
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One group (a particular set of DMs) thinks that XP works a certain way
The way XP works is edition dependant...
As I quoted upthread, the 3.5 DMG shows that in the RAW, XP IS a reward system for characters, and that those characters that do not participate (i.e. kill the monsters and defeat the traps) do not share in those rewards...
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Furthermore, if tips were not factored into wait staff wages, food and drink prices would rise accordingly in order to make up for the increased wages management would have to pay wait staff.
Which is, of course, the proper state of affairs.
As a DM I do not expect tips, but if I do an exceptional job I will not refuse them. :)
You sound like a former GM of mine. He over estimated the opposition that we the party was faceing and a player offered him 20 bucks to allow the clerics charm monster spell to work.
The money changed hands and this gargantuan kraken had been summoned from the depths to obey the preistess of love and beauty. Needless to say the naval fleet of ships following us was decimated as opposed to a TPK on our part.The DM had absolutly no problem in being bribed with real world cash to alter reality in his home brew world.
Bad part about that type of DM is when he didn't like a charecter because it didn't fit his idea of what heroes should be he found ways of justy killing you out right. God says your dead, your necromancer is too evil to be allowed to exist and you have been struck down. Needl;ess to say that was the last time I played in his game.
First off, I'm pretty much in the camp of "no show, no xp."
Secondly: the players in my games have no idea how much xp their characters actually have. I keep track of it behind the scenes. They get xp for encounters, for staying focus and in character, for doing cool stuff during the game, I also give out bonus xp for work put in outside of the game. This includes game journals, art work, coming up with a background for a person/place/thing in the game world. It is extra credit and is rewarded as such.
I'll tell them when they are close to leveling up. But they have no idea what their exact total xp is. If a player doesn't show up he get's no xp. They know this and if they had a problem, well they probably wouldn't play in my games. I'm ok with that. I'm a pretty fair tempered DM anyway and I never with hold XP to punish people. I do understand that things come up, and people have to miss, no biggie, but you're not getting xp if you do. Though how much you missed you'll never know for sure.
I have never played in a game where if somebody missed the game session they still received XP. To me the notion is ridiculous. Is my way the only way? No. But it's the way I run my games, and I'm very clear and upfront about it from the get go.
So you clearly view XP as a reward for the players, and not a reward for their characters, then?
The whole "I'd never withhold XP to punish anyone, you just won't get as much if you don't show up and don't do as much work as some other players, that's all!" argument strikes me as the same sort of "logic" that people use when they want to stiff their waiter on a tip. "It's a reward for exceptionally good service!" they'll say, ignoring the fact that it's not actually a reward for exceptionally good service, and is actually expected for normal service, especially since it is designed to make up for otherwise paltry wages. In their mind, they're not punishing the waiter by not giving them a tip, they're just not rewarding...
I'm not arguing with you Scott, I've seen your side and I disagree. You've yet to come up with anything compelling to convince me otherwise. You can disagree with me (which you obviously do) and I'm ok with that. I'm just throwing my opinion in the pot.
And as to the change in conversation about waiters and tipping. I give very good tips. 15% is the bare minimum and that is only if the service is poor or I'm completely strapped for cash. 20%-30% is closer to the norm. I've had many friends make their living waiting tables, and know it can be a very difficult job and I respect that.
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...And yet you demand attendance for XP?
It's almost as if no one ever lost their home due to a low character level.
I wish it was possible to come into an electronics store or grocery and get 15% off because you felt like not giving it up. "These Wal-Mart greeters and cashiers better be exceptional or I'm not giving them a red cent!" and "I had to wait in a long line, I want 15% off!" would be fantastic to be able to pull.
Hey, Paizo, where's my customer service? Can I just not pay you like 20% of this brick of Pathfinder minis because you didn't refill my AP in the last month? Where are my bread sticks?
Furthermore, if tips were not factored into wait staff wages, food and drink prices would rise accordingly in order to make up for the increased wages management would have to pay wait staff.
I think this is how it should be.
I think this is how it should be.
This is how it is in New Zealand. Tips are strange, alien things to us, but the pay is higher.
I think perhaps it is Scott who is missing the point on the tipping argument.
Sure, waiters expect and depend upon tips to make a living wage.
But bad waiters should not be any more able to make a living as a waiter than a bad businessman should be able to make a living running his own business, and not tipping a terrible waiter helps to encourage the bad ones to move on to a different profession, just like not giving your money to a terribly run local business encourages that business to fold and make room for their presumably better run competition.
Nobody should ever feel bad about not leaving a tip in return for horrible service.