Yesterday one of our GMs decided to host an epic level one-shot for the rest of us. Not having played anything of the sort in YEARS, the rest of us were pretty excited and we all made 20th-level characters.
The GM never looked at the characters, merely asked me what we were making over the phone the day before the game.
(And in case you are wondering, we had an ifrit fire sorcerer, human generalist fighter (character sheet not available, one shown is a very similar build), halfling arcane sorcerer with an earth fetish (me), and a noble drow mystic theurge--all with 20 class levels.)
As he introduced us to his setting a day later, however, it proved to be less and less enticing.
The gods themselves had gone to war against one another, with mortal-kind caught in the cross fire. This resulted in a cataclysm that warped the very fabric of reality. Arcane storms formed over the land, new and terrible monsters were beginning to appear in greater numbers. The connections between planes were beginning to weaken, causing summoning and calling magic to function erratically ("summoning and calling is like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're going to get").
So before the game even starts, our three spellcasters suffer serious power drain as we all have (and were planning on relying on) powerful summoning spells. On the drive over we even hyped ourselves up by discussing how fun it would be to cast time stop and summon a dozen creatures (something we had never been able to do before).
At least they DO function (kinda).
So our characters are called up by representatives of mortal-kind in order to fight for and save mortal-kind (us being among the most powerful representatives). How we were to go about this was up to us, but after consulting countless sages and making a few knowledge checks of our own we narrowed it down to two "realistic" options:
1) Join the god-war as our own faction, defeat the gods, become gods ourselves as a result, and fix the multiverse. This would require calling forth legendary behemoth creatures (Bestiary III) and either convincing them to join us or to subdue them and force them to turn against the gods.
2) Separate ourselves from the gods and everything connected to them (i.e. magic). This would, in effect, isolate the material plane from all other planes and ensure the gods and their influence could never touch the world again (for better or for worse). Arcane and divine magic would cease to exist. Magical creatures would die out or be shunted to other planes, and the world would slowly become much like it is in our reality.
Either method would require ample research and travel in order to find out how one would accomplish such things, a quest fit for heroes of our caliber.
So far the plot is a bit contrived and obviously last minute, but otherwise very interesting and full of potential.
We got wind of a 3,000 year old lich tyrant who has recently returned from other worlds to once again rule his ancient kingdom in the north (much to the dismay of his former and once-again subjects). It is believed that this ancient and vile being might hold some of the answers we seek. So my earth sorcerer casts greater teleport and we all appear in his front courtyard in front of his mountain castle. The place appears decrepit and abandoned.
The GM informs the arcane casters that, upon arrival we sense a magical field surrounding us, stretching for miles around. After a brief investigation we determine that it is some kind of null-teleportation field. It allows people to teleport into the area, but not out or within. We also discover that the entire castle structure is lead lined, which explained why many of our divination spells prior to arrival had failed.
We enter the castle and after several minutes of exploration we are beset by a quartet of golems (two mithral, two adamantine; Bestiary II). We decide to fallback into the courtyard and see how far they follow (they didn't). We try to enter the castle another way, and break through a tower window. Once inside the (narrow) tower, we are beset by a plasma ooze (Bestiary III) that magically appears and attempts to engulf us while we have no real maneuvering space.
At this point, we are all beginning to sense a trend in our GMs game. Summoning and calling magic doesn't function properly. We cannot use teleportation abilities of any kind (I REALLY miss my maze spell), all the encounters are immune to magic, or a host of other effects (crits, death effects, mind-affecting effects, etc.).
The castle itself is self repairing, which means my 20th-level earth sorcerer can't even tear it apart with spells like stoneshape, earth to mud, or clashing rocks (Advanced Player's Guide), despite it obviously being made of stone. It also has an annoying habit of making walls of force appear out of nowhere (such as when we were in the tower with the ooze the inside lining of the tower was suddenly wrapped in a wall of force). My character is built around flesh to stone (using spell perfection to get a CL of 33 for beating spell resistance and to force targets to roll two saves against DC 35, take lowest) and we have yet to even encounter a single creature made of flesh!
Basically, my complaint comes down to this: We were promised a high level game. Instead we got a game where we can't effectively use ANY of the iconic abilities common to high level play. We ARE having fun so far, but it doesn't FEEL like it's high level as a result of all the restrictions (of which there will no doubt be more).
How would you feel in this situation? Would you feel a little cheated? Would a game without teleportation, save or dies, summoning/calling, really feel all that high level to you? Would you talk to the GM, or let it be (we are having fun after all)? Would you think that everything that has happened is the logical course of the story thus far (it does make sense [to me at least] that a magic trap in a lich lair could trap intruders in a force bubble with an ooze), or are they just the whims of a lazy GM who just doesn't want to have to deal with REAL high level play?
I'm curious to know your thoughts on the matter.
That's what you get for making Castys.
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Roll up some BARBARIANS for MAXIMUM DESTRUCITY.
It seems to me that the DM actually thinks a 3000-year old lich would know how to counter most commonly-encountered tactics. That's simply how it should be, in my opinion. Also, most high-CR monsters have multiple defensive abilities. Oozes and golems wouldn't be out of place in that setting at all.
To me, it would be far more "fake" if the 3000-year old lich had few or no defenses against other high-level strategies. I once played in a game where our 10th-level characters teleported into an 18th-level archmage's tower and took him out, all in the space of 1 round. That wasn't enjoyable or believable in the least, and was my last session with that GM.
Based on what you've said so far, this seems like an excellent setting, and one I'd enjoy playing in. The problem seems to be that you can't use the strategies you expected to be able to use. Be creative and come up with alternative strategies!
The only real issue is that the setting wasn't explained before you made characters. That would probably have eliminated most of the issues you're having, since you would have know beforehand that summoning would be a risky strategy.
I dont like the fact that he nerfed all summoning but other then that it sounds pretty epic in power and scope
I think its a little of both of him being lazy and it might be a part of the story
Ask yourselves are you guys having fun then that should be the only goal to roleplaying any how
It seems to me that the DM actually thinks a 3000-year old lich would know how to counter most commonly-encountered tactics. That's simply how it should be, in my opinion. Also, most high-CR monsters have multiple defensive abilities. Oozes and golems wouldn't be out of place in that setting at all.
To me, it would be far more "fake" if the 3000-year old lich had few or no defenses against other high-level strategies. I once played in a game where our 10th-level characters teleported into an 18th-level archmage's tower and took him out, all in the space of 1 round. That wasn't enjoyable or believable in the least, and was my last session with that GM.
Based on what you've said so far, this seems like an excellent setting, and one I'd enjoy playing in. The problem seems to be that you can't use the "we win"-strategies you expected to be able to use. Be creative and come up with alternative strategies!
Agreed!
Based on what you've said so far, this seems like an excellent setting, and one I'd enjoy playing in. The problem seems to be that you can't use the "we win"-strategies you expected to be able to use. Be creative and come up with alternative strategies!
As an ongoing campaign, I'd totally agree with this. As a one-shot (although it sounds more involved than a one-shot - it might be a 2-3 session game), it's kindof disappointing. The whole point of a high-level oneshot, IMHO, is to feel uberpowerful compared to your normal characters,
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Feels to me like your DM is one of the writers of the TV show 'Heroes.'
"Hey, let's write a series about people with super-powers!"
"Oh snap, this is hard. Let's make the main characters super-powers not work in every single episode, for various increasingly far-fetched reasons, because I don't know how to write a nail-biting scenario that will challenge the people with the powers I gave them..."
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You never fail to entertain RD!
I would probably let the matter slide if it was a one-shot. So the GM did not give you the experience you were expecting. Since it is not a campaign, I would not bother.
If it is an issue, do not play in another epic one shot run by this GM again. Frankly, GMs may not deliver every time they sit behind a screen, but at least he gave it a shot. He took on the responsibility of creating a session and running it for you.
Sometimes a GM can be lazy or not know how to truly handle epic play. Running an adventure for 20th-level PCs is no where nearly as easy as planning for 5th-level PCs. (IMHO). I would take the positives from the game and leave the rest behind.
Hope you have a great Christmas RD! :D
We were promised a high level game.
I'd say that's just what you got. Your GM seems to be a competent guy.
You never fail to entertain RD!
I would probably let the matter slide if it was a one-shot. So the GM did not give you the experience you were expecting. Since it is not a campaign, I would not bother.
This.
Sounds like you got what you were promised.
Sounds like on the drive over you had dreams of unashamed and unchecked raw power to simply spam the WIN button, and were excited by the sheer magnificent overkill of your wave of Charlie Sheen coke fuelled unchallengeable awesome.
Sounds like you didn't like learning that even L20's have problems.
Sounds like a thoughtful GM.
It seems to me that the DM actually thinks a 3000-year old lich would know how to counter most commonly-encountered tactics. That's simply how it should be, in my opinion. Also, most high-CR monsters have multiple defensive abilities. Oozes and golems wouldn't be out of place in that setting at all.
To me, it would be far more "fake" if the 3000-year old lich had few or no defenses against other high-level strategies. I once played in a game where our 10th-level characters teleported into an 18th-level archmage's tower and took him out, all in the space of 1 round. That wasn't enjoyable or believable in the least, and was my last session with that GM.
Based on what you've said so far, this seems like an excellent setting, and one I'd enjoy playing in. The problem seems to be that you can't use the strategies you expected to be able to use. Be creative and come up with alternative strategies!
The only real issue is that the setting wasn't explained before you made characters. That would probably have eliminated most of the issues you're having, since you would have know beforehand that summoning would be a risky strategy.
I have to agree with Are in the preparedness of the Lich.
Yeah, I think the issue is not his campaign, it's the lack of warning you guys got about your characters. I bet the Fighter is having a great time, for example.
It doesn't feel "fake" to me. It feels like a high level game.
The world is in peril? check
Leaders of nations calling upon powerful heroes? check
Godhood a possible reward? check
Dealing with incredibly lethal and all-knowing entities (lich)? check
Said incredibly lethal and all-knowing entities prepared to defend themselves against the likes of heroes? check
A more well-rounded group might have done better initially, I don't know. Be happy the interior of the castle isn't a permanent antimagic zone and the lich has personal immunity. Be mindful that you are openly attacking a Tar-Baphonesque lich on his home turf. Of course divinations aren't going to work! Neither are summons and teleports. That's pretty classic high-level shtick.
Seems like a high-level one-shot to me. Sorry you feel let down by it, but at least you're having fun.
So, after this one-shot, host your own epic one-shot! Create the game you were looking for...
While I understand why you feel cheated, I can’t feel bad for you. Well maybe a little because it is probably not your fault your expectations were so off. To be clear it wasn’t your GMs fault either, though a hint about summoning would have been nice. That is the only homebrewed restriction I see.
You can take it from us or find out the hard way, but teleporting straight to the lich buffed out the ass knowing exactly what to expect from scrys to watch summoned monsters battle it out is not fun.
though a hint about summoning would have been nice. That is the only homebrewed restriction I see.
Meh they should have been built with more flexibility.
Sounds like the players got over excited and built one trick ponies... thats not the GM's fault.
Contingency management is a player skill.
I can't see it as "fake" high level as it has all the elements of a high level game and you're , though I do think it was a bit of a problem that the GM didn't give you a heads up of the setting, especially if calling to see what characters you guys are playing. (I've played an Arcane Caster in a setting where magic was actually dead, basically I played the character that had to either run or die and none of my skills were appropriate for the challenges that were presented. Worst time ever...)
So, after this one-shot, host your own epic one-shot! Create the game you were looking for...
This.
I've never played a one-shot that was all that awesome. Without the context of a real ongoing campaign, it's a bit of a crap shoot. I give the GM credit for even doing it at all. You could have guessed that a 3000 year old epic lich probably has you figured out. He'd be dust if he didn't.
I don't mean to sound snotty, but if you can do better, go ahead. It's harder than it looks.
I think the summoning thing was a little below the belt, but the lich's preparedness was definitely not.
Happy Holidays everyone!
Seems its mostly just me then. Thanks everyone.
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Who plays in high level games? lol I DM them alot but play.....
I do understand though, it takes some effort to create such high level characters and then to be restricted from all the things that make them fun would be a bit of a let down. I think a conversation before characters were made about the conditions of the game would of stopped most of the problems here.
Summoning doesn't work at all or you just don't know what will happen when you use it? That might be fun!
Summoning doesn't work at all or you just don't know what will happen when you use it? That might be fun!
Yes. After retreating from the golems for a bit of reprieve, we spent some time and cast elemental swarm. Despite it being a bonus spell of the fire bloodline, we ended up with water elementals.
WATER ELEMENTALS! ON LAND! FROM A FIRE SORCERER! :P
I'd be annoyed if the DM had given no warning about the restrictions. It's like telling me we get a high fantasy game and I make my High Elf Wizard in time only to be told that "Oh, but elves are banned" or some other crap like that. Anyway, as long as you guys are having fun with the campaign...
I'd be annoyed if the DM had given no warning about the restrictions. It's like telling me we get a high fantasy game and I make my High Elf Wizard in time only to be told that "Oh, but elves are banned" or some other crap like that. Anyway, as long as you guys are having fun with the campaign...
That's more or less what happened. I was up until 7am the night before the game making my 20th-level character only to find that I had no control over some of my more powerful abilities.
Umm other than summons and teleports, what was taken off you again?
Umm other than summons and teleports, what was taken off you again?
Here is a list of my spells:
9th-level – clashing rocks (APG), shapechange, wish, summon monster IX
8th-level – clone, maze, mind blank, moment of prescience, power word: stun
7th-level – greater scrying, greater teleport, limited wish, spell turning, statue
6th-level – disintegrate, flesh to stone, mislead, true seeing, veil
5th-level – baleful polymorph, overland flight, telekinesis, transmute rock to mud, wall of stone
4th-level – charm monster, dimension door, enervation, secure shelter, stone shape, stoneskin
3rd-level – dispel magic, heroism, major image, protection from energy, shrink item
2nd-level – false life, glitterdust, invisibility, make whole, shatter, web
1st-level – feather fall, identify, mage armor, magic missile, protection from evil, shield
0-level – arcane mark, dancing lights, detect poison, ghost sound, light, mage hand, message, prestidigitation, read magic
Now here is a list of the spells that I CAN'T make effective use of in this game (either due to circumstances or creature invulnerability):
9th-level – clashing rocks (it's all been indoors), summon monster IX
8th-level – maze, mind blank, power word: stun
7th-level – greater scrying, greater teleport, spell turning, statue
6th-level – disintegrate (well, on the walls of force, I guess), flesh to stone
5th-level – baleful polymorph, telekinesis, transmute rock to mud (no natural stone inside)
4th-level – charm monster, dimension door, enervation, stone shape (magical nature of castle prevents it)
3rd-level – dispel magic (no effects other than walls of force)
2nd-level – glitterdust, make whole, shatter
1st-level – magic missile
0-level – none
That's half my spell list!
So... in short you memorised a bunch of spells, and then turned up to find your selection was a bit limited?
Surely at level 20 you had more spells than that, it's just that the choice turned out to be a bit unlucky? Like a Fighter with slashing weapons as his best gear finding out he needed Blunt for this romp?
I admit its a bit rough, but its common in most sessions to find you are off your ideal game :)
Sounds like its still fun, just a lot more challenging than you expected.
Mind you, I think its about time someone actually challenged you properly in a game rather than let you cakewalk the enemy. :)
Robbing abilities that come to you by that level (capstone abilities and all such things, for example) isn't what I would call challenging properly (calling the GM a liar and a cheater would be rude but appropriate), and I think his spell list is limited due to a lack of magical items boosting his stats.
But hey, that's just my opinion on this.
So... in short you memorised a bunch of spells, and then turned up to find your selection was a bit limited?
Surely at level 20 you had more spells than that, it's just that the choice turned out to be a bit unlucky? Like a Fighter with slashing weapons as his best gear finding out he needed Blunt for this romp?
I admit its a bit rough, but its common in most sessions to find you are off your ideal game :)
Sounds like its still fun, just a lot more challenging than you expected.
Mind you, I think its about time someone actually challenged you properly in a game rather than let you cakewalk the enemy. :)
People obviously aren't taking the time to look at the character sheets posted in the first post of this thread.
I'm a sorcerer guys! Those are ALL of my spells for that day, AND every other day! :P
I think it's a cool thing, and it seems appropriate to high level play. He had to deal with teleportation and summons and stuff. It's the Cellphone problem. As a writer, you have to explain how the whole plot isn't solved by cellphones, either by taking cellphones away, or by making a plot which cannot be solved by cellphones.
ON THE OTHER HAND
I think y'all might have benefited from multiple sessions with these characters. One where you get to run amok, taking on powerful, unprepared creatures, using the full extent of your power, one where the world starts to go wonky, and your abilities got screwed with a bit, but fighting and approaching things was generally standard, and THEN the raid on the BBEG, where the things you usually rely on don't work, and your raw power alone isn't enough to overcome the obstacles. This would be good because it would allow the players to have fun with full power, better establish the feeling that something was wrong with the world, and then the Lich would throw previous encounters into HUGE, BEAUTIFUL contrast. The party would immediately realize "this guy doesn't mess around," and they wouldn't feel as though the GM was naysaying their powers for no reason.
He isn't naysaying the powers for no reason, he's doing so because he is well-prepared, and he's playing the BBEG how he should be played, but I do get how the restrictions could feel pretty arbitrary.
Well sure, but it seemed a little light on for the level.
Perhaps Icy was on the money.
On the other hand, your list looks like it was built for castle wrecking...
It would be if the damn castle wasn't magically warded. It takes some of my most powerful spells just to break a window long enough for the party to crawl through it before it repairs itself!
What's more, this lich guy has SO MUCH adamantine floating around (every window is barred with it; not one, but TWO adamantine golems) that I can't help but think he must have spent the last 1,000 years away from his realm doing nothing but strip mining other worlds of the stuff! And that's not even taking into account the amount of mithral and other precious materials.
Well, you said he didn't look at your characters, so it doesn't sound like he's gimping you. It sounds like you guys had expectations, and he had expectations, and neither the twain shall meet.
Meanwhile, what if you did have a talk with him? Ask yourself, would talking to him cause him to lob softballs at you, and if so, will you be back here in a week complaining about how there's no challenge?
Personally, your description of what is happening is exactly what I would expect from an epic level game. It's very difficult to challenge epic level characters. Sounds like he's doing a good job of that.
Not sure how "not what you expected" translates to "fake," but it feels like that is the real "problem" here. I know that can be disappointing at first, but some of the best games in my experience came when everybody got over that and settled into what was really going on.
High (epic) level one-shot = midlevel game just with bigger numbers.
And to make that work you need to strip most of what high level is really about from your players (wish, summoning, divination, teleport, sos/sod magic...).
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I've run into similar issues. I think what you need is the regular reminder that you guys are insanely powerful - that is, there need to be hordes of mooks that you can mop up. If every enemy you face is appropriately challenging, then you never feel like you've advanced. If you get to wipe out an army of skeletons before you deal with the lich's more powerful minions, then you know you're actually super powerful.
In that environment, with no warning from the GM as to limits, I would feel robbed. In the sense that I would be playing in a game whete I wished I was a different character. Not a good feeling. Hey, turn it around on him and join sides with the Liche. Then nobody gets what they hoped for. :)
That's been my experience with epic level games. The enemies are also epic and paranoid, which is why they survived to epic levels, especially in their lairs.
I've found epic levels is all about negating cool stuff. You use a meteor storm, your target becomes immune to fire, you add metamagic to the meteor storm to overwhelm their fire immunity, they spell turn the meteor storm, and your clone/simulacrum/cohort readied action dispels it to no effect. You summon a Solar, the NPCs banish it. You kill the Great Wyrm Red Dragon in 1 round, its buffed clone appears 1 round later. You do 300 points of damage in 1 round, a contingency heal goes off, and its fast healing 50 takes care of the rest.
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And what would YOU be doing if you were a 3000 year old lich? Much the same I'm sure. You're now on the receiving end.
If I were a 3,000 year old lich with the kind of resources this guy seems to have, I would not be messing around with castles at all! I would have long since created my own isolated demiplane which only I can get to, and that nobody knows about.
Finding a way to invade it would be a quest all its own. Once there, defenses would be powerful, but minimal (as visitors are unexpected, but if they do show, they are obviously powerful for having even accomplished it).
Heck, said plane might even be populated by an entire race that I created by myself (similar to Island of Dr. Moreau) which the PCs would have to interact with and get past before finding the lich, his phylactery, or any answers at all.
If I were to ever return to the material plane, it would be because something was wrong with my "people" and I needed to find a way to fix it (such as by expanding the breeding pool by stealing slaves away from my former haunting grounds).
I think what you need is the regular reminder that you guys are insanely powerful - that is, there need to be hordes of mooks that you can mop up. If every enemy you face is appropriately challenging, then you never feel like you've advanced. If you get to wipe out an army of skeletons before you deal with the lich's more powerful minions, then you know you're actually super powerful.
This. This! A thousand times this! And it's not just true at epic levels. Heroes need reminders that they are, in fact, heroes (at all levels). Otherwise, you're in Forgotten Realms, where nothing you do ever really matters regardless of how powerful you are (there, it's not just that there is always a bigger fish, it's that there are 100 bigger fish for every level).
How do you know the lich hasn't created the demiplane mentioned? Maybe the castle is just for his entertainment. To deal with annoying adventurers that are always popping up asking annoying questions - after all 3000 years of knowledge is highly sought after.
Sort of a Good Magician Humphry thing from Xanth. If you've read any of those.
I love this whole 'no warning' business, as if it is up to the GM to warn a player :p
Whatever happened to intelligence gathering?
How do you know the lich hasn't created the demiplane mentioned? Maybe the castle is just for his entertainment. To deal with annoying adventurers that are always popping up asking annoying questions - after all 3000 years of knowledge is highly sought after.
Sort of a Good Magician Humphry thing from Xanth. If you've read any of those.
Haven't read those, but it has long since occurred to me that this is a distinct possibility.
Part of the issue with jumping into a high-level game, rather than building up to it over time, is that you don't have the sense of epic accomplishment that characters of that caliber would normally have. Maybe you all just haven't gotten to the point of the adventure where you get to blow up mooks yet? Maybe you bypassed it? Maybe it wasn't there to begin with?
Powerful characters definitely need to feel powerful, but it doesn't always have to come from their actions. Roleplay is also useful to make characters feel powerful. Best bet at this point might be to ride it out (since it's a one shot) or to chat with the DM about your feelings.
Good luck!