I'm GMing a group of six PCs, and I have one character that's a bit unbalancing, and am not sure what to do.
The character is a 4th-level barbarian, played by a very experienced player who has maximized his feat selections and class abilities to make an unstoppable killing machine. He's turning enemies that are 3-4 CRs above the party (that I spend a lot of time designing) into two-round wonders.
The character regularly dishes out 20+ points of damage per round (average damage is 18), and that's not on a critical hit! The other PCs are only putting out a third of that.
Str 16, raging, power attack with a two-handed weapon = +13 damage on attacks! (And, when he crits with his greataxe... yikes.) Oh, and combat reflexes, so he gets a ton of AOOs.
He does have a crappy AC, but a TON of hit points, and bad guys tend not to be alive near him long enough to take him down.
With the APL at 4, how should I design encounters that are credible threats that won't run the risk of a TPK? I don't want it to feel like I'm singling out this character, either.
Any suggestions?
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Archers.
Archers that hate barbarians and that are spread out.
Or...
Charm Person.
Try a limited number of negative level attacks, enemies with lots of hp but lower damage or spellcasters.
Will saves and archers for sure. Once had a barbarian in a game that I ran who was forced to sit and think about what he was doing/had done with his life in the middle of combat. He sat on a log in a thinker pose while everyone else ran for their lives. Was good comedy.
Very the terrian types too, soak up his movement.
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I thought Barbarians usually shine at lower levels. At least the ones I played with seems able to 1 hit ko even bosses.
These unbalance in damage should taper off as the party reach higher levels.
As stated above try having multiple range enemies attacking him. Even low level foes should have no problem hitting him with his lowered AC. Add something nasty like a stat-damaging poison for greater effect.
Note: 5-7 spear throwing barbarians should hit him at range with no problems...
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This is a perfectly normal, well-built character. It's also at a level where melee characters shine. Your spellcasters will be catching up to him shortly.
What are the other five characters, if you don't mind sharing?
STR bonus +3, with two hands that's +4
Rage adds +2, with two hands that's +3
Power Attack +4, two hands makes it +6
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Total average damage 19.5
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the damage is reasonable for this level. with a decent magic weapon and a little improving of strength. he could have milked 3 extra points. greatsword could have helped too. and this is a level where melee shines. when you get to 7th. the casters will pull ahead with 4th level spells. some of those spells are real game changers. Fear, Black Tentacles, Haste, Fly, and Summon Monster 4 are good examples.
Party composition is important. Also, how do the players pilot their characters?
My suggestions will be different if all six of the players are built to be face beaters than if they were a more "balanced" party.
I concur with Tadrinth...2h builds are very strong at low levels. I have a barbarian in my group now that had an 18 Str at level 1 and uses a falchion. They are currently level 8 (and about to hit 9...which means improved critical...yikes!).
At level 1 when he raged and power attacked he was +6 to hit and 2d4+12, 18-20/x2 damage.
At level 8 he is +19/+14 for 2d4+23+1d6 elemental damage, 18-20/x2 when raging and power attacking and he has 102 hps.
I can still reduce him to 0 or below because, as you said, his AC is horrible when he rages (not so great any other time either). I hit him with a bow shot once (from great range, too, it was a beautiful thing) that critted and, because I forgot it dealt triple damage, knocked the tar out of him rather than killed him.
He still gets to be awesome in hand-to-hand, and dishes out tons of damage upon the group's enemies, but he's not unstoppable by any means. Smart enemies do their best to avoid him and dumb enemies end up worm food.
If he doesn't have darkvision use low light 20% concealment is nothing the underestimate.
Use difficult terrain to slow his movement and stop charges.
Throw some mooks out there with nets, even with a -4 to hit it is a touch attack and its going to waste his actions or take some penalties.
Hit him where it hurts, his reflex and will saves (when raging more likely reflex) Use grease, chill/heat metal, pit traps/spells, you get the idea.
- Congratulate the player on his character building prowess.
- Ask him to give some pointers to the other players.
- Ask him to hold off leveling next time, so that the other PCs can "catch up".
Ask him to hold off leveling next time, so that the other PCs can "catch up".
Not this, why punish him for having an effective character?
Help the others build reasonably well off characters that work well together, and use tactics and opponents that are not so easy for a melee build to kill. (ie, ranged behind difficult to get locations and spell casters that target will and reflex, don't worry about hit points when a color spray takes out a 4 HD barbarian pretty easy)
But yeah punishing him for doing nothing wrong is horrible idea, having different level characters in group at all is bad idea.
punishing him for doing nothing wrong is horrible idea
Oh I agree, it wasn't meant as a "punishment". It's just that when one PC has too much "cool", he needs to slow down without losing anything already gained. Success doesn't need punishing, but it doesn't need rewarding either.
I'd be a bit pissed if success didn't yield rewards, especially in my Pathfinder game. Another thing to consider is throwing an enemy at him with a build similar to his own. If he has to go toe-to-toe with an almost as tough barbarian or fighter, he'll have to rely on the wizard's will targeting spells to save his ass.
Also, why is he getting a lot of AoOs with combat reflexes? Unless you're playing really dumb monsters, there's not a lot of way to make that happen.
Combat reflexes is rarely taken expect for specific purposes because its rarely useful. Are you as a DM enabling whatever is causing that?
Also, why is he getting a lot of AoOs with combat reflexes? Unless you're playing really dumb monsters, there's not a lot of way to make that happen.
Combat reflexes is rarely taken expect for specific purposes because its rarely useful. Are you as a DM enabling whatever is causing that?
And most players avoid AoOs, no matter their character's intelligence.
This guy has a 16 strength. At fourth level. Isn't that refreshing? :P
Seems like it wasn't actual minmaxing or anything, just a well-designed character. Depriving him of a level is the worst thing you can do, in my opinion (short of making him make a new character). If he's an entire level behind the others, he's going to be the one in the background.
Just change monster tactics. Spells will be handy, especially debuffs (to say nothing of charm person). So will ranged weapons, tumbling and flanking. He can only kill one monster per round, after all.
Also, I recommend high ACs. He's sacrificing accuracy for power. Let him feel the cons.
Good luck!
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The character is a 4th-level barbarian, played by a very experienced player who has maximized his feat selections and class abilities to make an unstoppable killing machine. He's turning enemies that are 3-4 CRs above the party (that I spend a lot of time designing) into two-round wonders.
In the last session I ran, the party's barbarian failed two Will saves against Dominate Person. The enemy wizard told her to kill the ranger's animal companions.
Best part?
The barbarian's player was out for the session, and let the ranger's player run her for the session.
So the ranger's player had to play both the ranger (who was trying to avoid having her dogs killed) and the barbarian (who was trying her best to murder the dogs).
That session was a lot of fun. >:-)
Touch of fatigue...it's a cantrip and it stop raging...also daze, it's a cantripso one two hit the barbarianto slow him down. Cause Fear Color Spray, a good number of low level will save spell will trip this character without undermining the player unfairly.
Have a goblin act as a decoy and lead the barbarian into a web DC 20 to spot a monsterous spider web. His rage strength should free for it relativly quickly.
Send in the swarms a small army of goblins lead by a adept or sorcerer. The goblins stand in two ranks five feet apart to break the cleave feat and the second row has long spears for reach.
Or grapple that removes the great axe. Owlbear anyone?
He 16 str barbarian he's not a super barbarian.
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Yeh, I agree with the others. Melee characters when properly built feel like that. Barbarians come with a lot of static damage and oomph at first. It quickly tapers of if the player doesn't know what they are doing when the characters start to hit the mid-levels. I wouldn't worrry too much, just rely on the tactics presented here and remember a few pointers:
1. Barbarians can't rage if they are fatigued unless they use a rare rage power so traipsing in the snow for an long period of time, long swims and extended time in high altitudes sap the strength out of them quickly.
2. These set pieces also give a chance for the other abilities of the barbarian to shine. Fast speed, movement related rage powers(had a friend who used raging swimmer often) and knowledge:nature/survival are all stable barbarian abilities and something which allows the barbarian player to contribute, but doesn't feel as overpowering as the combat prowess.
3. Ability-draining creatures are the bane of any creature, but especially barbarians, since they have very little else except boosted abilities at the beginning levels, while fighters and cavaliers for instance will keep on trucking with challenges and Specializations/Trainings. Same goes for spellcasters with necromancy spells, these can offset the barbarian well.
4. Strong opponents that can dish it out. Yeah, seems too obvious to mention, but these can actually turn the tide of battle far too often. Why? Because for all that vaunted power the barbarians have very little defenses besides hit points. Making a player worried over his character's hide is something to witness when said hide only has 15 AC and needs to drop out of rage to do anything meaningful but fight when on low hp. Making a player thoughtful when to rage and when not is the key here. If you are worried of the opponent stomping on the rest of the party after/before the barbarian is squished, have him be a challenger like a duelist or a cavalier who desires personal glory and will focus on the melee machine. Ditto on the AC monster Kobold Cleaver mentioned, having a hugely strong enemy to pit against a certain specific target often runs the risk of the rest of the party having even less of a chance to win against said beast.
Anyway, the character's medium stats actually remind me of how I often allocate abilities. It's usually in strong contrast with the rest of our gaming group. I sometimes feel pretty insignificant when an archer fighter with 19 in starting dexterity dishes out machine gun fire while I proceed to gently caress the enemies with something puny like 15 or 16 in my starting hit stat. Those one hit ponies are often full of holes though and get the shared attention of most opponents on the board though. Such is the life of famous people.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I have written a couple posts on what makes a good combat encounter, and I think my advice in those posts might help you. For the life of me, I can't seem to find them. Maybe I should have a blog (or a blog I actually update) of something to link to someday.
Without doing my usual wall of text, here is are the basics:
Enemies: You said you put alot of time into your enemies, and that is good so far as you are also putting time into thinking about more then just stats. NPCs are not just statblock waiting to looked at. They are characters your PCs interact with. Start thinking about the moment before the encounter for the NPCs, and even the moment after. Are they prepared to fight? Are they willing to run away if things go bad? You shouldn't have everyone fight to the death, or even to half death. Make a couple of them throw down their weapon and beg for mercy after their first point of damage. If anything, attacking a defenseless foe should make for some good party roleplay.
Enviroment: Battle fields are not always flat featureless landscapes. There are features like trees, roots, shrubs, chairs, loose floorboards, stairs, crumbling ruins, and even lightning storms to consider. Your barbarian is charging in as an opener every time? Make some difficult terrain or a high ledge for the foe to stand on. Make the party think just as much about how to reach the enemy as they do how they are going to defeat the enemy.
Challenge: Traps, time limits, puzzles, and chases can all be considered challenges you can use in a combat. Traps are fun because the party may or may not be aware of them, while the enemy should always know where they are. Puzzles are like traps, in that the PCs won't understand them at the beginning of the fight and they will cause the party to stop and think in the heat of battle. Puzzles are pretty rare though, and probably won't slow down a barbarian. Chases on the other hand will help your other PCs shine, as some of them will be better suited for it then the Barbarian.
Misc: Have consequences for killing some of the foes, especially the ones who begged for their lives.
Try designing encounters where it isn't clear if attacking is good or bad, like having a monster appear acting strangely but not attacking the party on sight. In reality, the monster is in trouble and is unsure if they should ask the PCs for help (or warn them,) or run away at the sight of them.
Also, encounters designed to drain resources will eliminate things like the how long the barbarian can rage. Fighting with few resources will really challenge a party, and can make for some memorable encounters. Having 20 low level people the party has to fight through means the big boss will have an easier time dealing with the PCs. Don't forget to use aid another, as it makes mobs more dangerous.
He's got to be famous for cutting nouns in half by now. Have enemies run away at the sight of him. He can probably run them down, being a barbarian.
However, he can probably also outrun his party. You know what they say about splitting the party...
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Difficult terrain and a lot of weak enemies will make him stand out less. Don't let them be hit by attacks of opportunity either.
The difficult terrain is to restrict his mobility so he can't move too far ahead of the group. It also makes it easier to predict how the PCs move. The tons of mooks means that everyone's pulling off one-shots, not just the barbarian, and barring abilities like cleave, he can still only kill one per round. That means you're eating up his rounds of rage. If he uses it every fight then he'll run out, especially this early in the game. If he's tactical and realizes that these enemies are no threat, well at least he's not stealing the show for this fight.
Swamp him with mooks. Why doesn't anybody ever surround their bad guys with mooks and bodyguards anymore? No fireballs at this level so a bunch of warriors clustered around the mage seems like par to me.
At level 4 your average well built melee should be doing roughly the same with a two-handed weapon. But he only gets one attack. And why would Combat Reflexes matter at lvl 4? Do you have that many enemies provoking AoOs at that level? Enemies aren't movingvery intelligently if they are provoking AoOs at that level. And how does he have a high strength, dex, and con at such a low level? Did you give out excessively high stats?
This doesn't make much sense. I've run barbarians at low level. They aren't any harder to deal with than any other melee at that level. They don't start getting nasty until about 10th or 12th level.
one word: shadows.
Low lvl monster and horrible
I don't see the problem.
The wizard can disable several enemies and make them almost irrelevant with a single Glitterdust, Color Spray or other similar spell.
Also, Str16 as a barbarian4 is pathetic from an optimization standpoint.
In my kingmaker game, I have a fighter that easily have been dealing LVx10 to LVx15 damage to everything he gets to full-attack. Easy enough to deal with; attack his will save, use some miss chance, make sure he cannot full-attack, etc...
The wizard that makes everything stop in their tracks so they cannot hit back while the fighter destroys them on the other hand... is nigh impossible to deal with unless I throw in some cheese.
You really have to talk to your players about it. It sounds like he's not terribly optimized, he's just playing a reasonably built character.
How do the other players feel about the barbarian hogging the spotlight all the time?
Agreed. He should just be happy that his barbarian didn't take a 1 level dip into synthesis.
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This guy has a 16 strength. At fourth level. Isn't that refreshing? :P
Seems like it wasn't actual minmaxing or anything, just a well-designed character. Depriving him of a level is the worst thing you can do, in my opinion (short of making him make a new character). If he's an entire level behind the others, he's going to be the one in the background.
Just change monster tactics. Spells will be handy, especially debuffs (to say nothing of charm person). So will ranged weapons, tumbling and flanking. He can only kill one monster per round, after all.
Also, I recommend high ACs. He's sacrificing accuracy for power. Let him feel the cons.
Good luck!
That's what I was thinking....anyone even trying would have at least an 18 in str or even a 20 by 4th level. The DM is over-reacting to the damage output that barbarians have. If you want combats to run longer add a couple low level mooks to absorb a round or two of attacks but don't punish a player for playing a well-within-reason designed character.
Agreed. He should just be happy that his barbarian didn't take a 1 level dip into synthesis.You really have to talk to your players about it. It sounds like he's not terribly optimized, he's just playing a reasonably built character.
How do the other players feel about the barbarian hogging the spotlight all the time?
Or even alchemist.
Or even alchemist.Agreed. He should just be happy that his barbarian didn't take a 1 level dip into synthesis.You really have to talk to your players about it. It sounds like he's not terribly optimized, he's just playing a reasonably built character.
How do the other players feel about the barbarian hogging the spotlight all the time?
I would be more worried about the synthesist.
1. It could be worked into an RP concept. They fuse with their totem.2. While fused you do not lose any base attack, but do gain a huge bonus to strength and dex, so basically no minuses.
3. You can have it on ALL THE TIME, except while sleeping.
Swamp him with mooks. Why doesn't anybody ever surround their bad guys with mooks and bodyguards anymore? No fireballs at this level so a bunch of warriors clustered around the mage seems like par to me.
Actually, going for quantity rather than quality might be a dreadful idea. He'll continue to outshine the others as he takes out one mook per round. Then again, he will be taking some damage...
Oh, idea: Assuming this guy isn't a half-orc, how about darkness? Miss chance. You can make him hate goblins, orcs and kobolds a lot that way--even the lowest-level monsters can probably hit him.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hit em with a swarm.
Hit em with a swarm.
swarms are so nasty, I've never seen something that says; immunities: weapon damage!
Archery, breath weapon, cover/concealment-abuse, darkness, elementals, fear, grappling, hordes, invisibility, jellies, K... damn, levitation, mirror images, ninjas, obstacles, pressure, quicklings, rust monsters (he WILL hate you), swarms, terrain, undead, venom, water, xorns, your imagination, ZOMBIES!
Alphabetical attack
Alphabetical attack
Ha! Well done, Kamelguru. Now I'm off to the bookshelves to find something useful in this situation that starts with a K!
Ha! Well done, Kamelguru. Now I'm off to the bookshelves to find something useful in this situation that starts with a K!
Alphabetical attack
What about just using Kamelguru as the "K" opponent?
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I'm GMing a group of six PCs, and I have one character that's a bit unbalancing, and am not sure what to do.
The character is a 4th-level barbarian, played by a very experienced player who has maximized his feat selections and class abilities to make an unstoppable killing machine. He's turning enemies that are 3-4 CRs above the party (that I spend a lot of time designing) into two-round wonders.
The character regularly dishes out 20+ points of damage per round (average damage is 18), and that's not on a critical hit! The other PCs are only putting out a third of that.
Sounds about right (although the PCs may be a wee bit unoptimized if they're only doing a third.
-- Dishing out HUGE gobs of damage in single hits is what barbarians are designed do. Even crappy barbarians (e.g., halfling with STR:10 who only 2hPAs when he's raging) are absurdly good at it.
If it seems like he's stealing the other player's thunder all the time, I would guess it's because your encounters consist of "raiding the Monster Manual". You could pull out some boss critter that has all kinds of unique abilities which could tie the party up in knots if it were "in its element" -- but if all you do is put the mini on the battlemat without any intervening difficult terrain or cover -- and let him charge it, it's going to croak.
Str 16, raging, power attack with a two-handed weapon = +13 damage on attacks!So he's not that nasty of a barbarian. A STR:20 h/o with Belt+2 and raging to STR:26 with a glaive will dish out d10+18. And get even nastier if you drop him under zero HP!
(And, when he crits with his greataxe... yikes.) Oh, and combat reflexes, so he gets a ton of AOOs.How is he pulling in opps with a 5' weapon? (is he being Enlarged by allies)?
He does have a crappy AC, but a TON of hit points, and bad guys tend not to be alive near him long enough to take him down.A couple of AC-maximizing halfling rogues with Acrobatics and/or Mobility, Combat Expertise, and various UMD's buffs will carve him up like a roast, especially with Agile weaponry.
With the APL at 4, how should I design encounters that are credible threats that won't run the risk of a TPK? I don't want it to feel like I'm singling out this character, either.
Opponents who defeat you aren't always interested in killing you. Sometimes they're just hired to "collect" you by someone else.
So, aforementioned troupe of halfling rogues rounds up the PCs and take them to the Guildmaster who needs a job done, one for which human barbarians and wizards are better suited than halfling rogues. (E.g., a fight with gibbering mouthers, or some such.)
What about just using Kamelguru as the "K" opponent?Ha! Well done, Kamelguru. Now I'm off to the bookshelves to find something useful in this situation that starts with a K!
Alphabetical attack
I was thinking KOBOLDS! They can be quite deadly. >:)
Also, I"m aware Ineptus, I just really like the idea of a roid-raging barbarian. :P
I am feeling very barbarian. I can't be bothered to read all these stinkin posts! RRAWWRRR!
OK, raging suggestions.
I like traps. Lots of them. Like the chute that drops you down into a flooded chamber and you have to ditch your armor and packs or drown. Lets see a little rage to climb the wall, open the stuck corroded trap door and haul everyone up, before yon barbie collapses from exhaustion.
Arrow traps, dart traps . . . sliding and falling blocks will kill too many people. Use posion or disease.
Second, how about encoutering a tribe of barbarian orcs or ogres? How about a level 5 ogrekin barbie? Lets call him Zippy the Pinhead because he has massive oversized shoulders and arms and a little pinhead. He talks in a high pitched voice and dunt get no respekt.
Zippy the Pinhead . . . not optimized
ogrekin barbie
+10 str +4 con -2 int -2 wis
Light Sensative (hey, he has to have a weakness!)
oversized arms allow use of Large Weapons
5d12 + 30: 90 points max, lets just say 69 for arguement. You can do the math for barbie rage . . .
2 rage powers: don't get away and quick reflexes
3 feats improved init, intimidating prowess, and power attack
+1 to dex
24 str 20 con 16 dex 7 int 7 wis 5 char
Acrobatics, Intimidate, Climb, Swim, Survival
Great axe, spiked heavy shield, heavy pick, war hammer, whatever you want.
Give him something interesting, like Trollskin Armor: looks like the troll version of the Nemean Lion . . . head, claws of a troll. Acts as AC +7, encumbers as hide, make two claw attacks if you want. If they both hit, rend for double damage. Very intimidating.
Just some ideas to help you get started. If you want to be really annoying, just give Zippy a high squeeky voice and 90 hp. I think that goes to 110 whilst he rages.
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'k' is for Keen katana wielded by a samurai who's issued Challenge and is in-bound on a Spirited Charge Ride-by: d8 + tons of lovin' x2 w/phat threat.
-- That'll properly ginsu an AC-dumped barbarian while leaving us out of range of full-attack reprisal. Rinse, recycle, repeat 'til he holler's 'Uncle!' or his lights go out.
I'm GMing a group of six PCs, and I have one character that's a bit unbalancing, and am not sure what to do.
The character is a 4th-level barbarian, played by a very experienced player who has maximized his feat selections and class abilities to make an unstoppable killing machine. He's turning enemies that are 3-4 CRs above the party (that I spend a lot of time designing) into two-round wonders.
The character regularly dishes out 20+ points of damage per round (average damage is 18), and that's not on a critical hit! The other PCs are only putting out a third of that.
Str 16, raging, power attack with a two-handed weapon = +13 damage on attacks! (And, when he crits with his greataxe... yikes.) Oh, and combat reflexes, so he gets a ton of AOOs.
He does have a crappy AC, but a TON of hit points, and bad guys tend not to be alive near him long enough to take him down.
With the APL at 4, how should I design encounters that are credible threats that won't run the risk of a TPK? I don't want it to feel like I'm singling out this character, either.
Any suggestions?
orc, barbarian, 20 point buy
22 str drop cha to 5 int to 8 16 conpower attack
weapon focus
Reckless Abandon for power which gives +2 to hit
Fiend Totem, Lesser for gore attack
raging you deal on a full attack with a greatsword and pa for just sword
+13 hit 2d6+18
+9 1d8+4
Your guy isn't doing as much damage as you think. As for ways to stop him just throw archers at him or use spells that make him attack other people.
Social encounters the bane of normal barbarians.
I apologize if I am repeating what someone else wrote, since I haven't read all the posts, but I suggest one of two things (or both).
First, pull the guy aside and ask him to hold up a bit. AKA maybe don't power attack every strike, or smash one mob and hold up a bit (it's what I have to do in my party, since I'm in a similar position till the casters pass me by).
The other thing, is anything he can do, you can do back to him.
If a lvl 4 Barbarian is wrecking your encounters, send 3 in against the group. Or use more traps; or an encounter they can't just nom the face off of, like a flying enemy, or a corrupt politician they have to outwit rather than murder.
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If his strength is only 16 he may have invested some of those stat points in AC.'k' is for Keen katana wielded by a samurai who's issued Challenge and is in-bound on a Spirited Charge Ride-by: d8 + tons of lovin' x2 w/phat threat.
-- That'll properly ginsu an AC-dumped barbarian while leaving us out of range of full-attack reprisal. Rinse, recycle, repeat 'til he holler's 'Uncle!' or his lights go out.
It won't make a difference: you're screwed if a samurai can repeatedly Ride-By -- and he might be able to rage too with a little multiclassing; unlike the ground-pounder, he keeps his lower AC out of harm's way while doing so.
(Beware of gnomes on badgers with curvy swords....)