Does the PC wealth by level (p.399) reprent the buy value, or the sell value, or the PC' equipment?
Also, do new PCs coming in mid-campaign use that chart? If so, do they get to choose their gear or is it rolled randomly?
Because items found while adventuring only sell for half value, serious discrepancies arise when that system is used (either to compare PCs in a campaign or to introduce a new character). Someone who uses only found (or crafted) gear ends up with twice the value of equipment as someone who has to sell found gear in order to purchase stuff they can use. Dose the wealth table represent someone using found/crafted gear, or someone using custom gear?
Buy value. I'd allow self-crafted items, but some GMs won't.
I let PCs choose gear, but there's usually a limit on the values, such as no more than 1/4 treasure value for any one item. Again, it's the GM's call.
Since the system is intended for making PCs at higher levels (in the case of a dead PC, for instance) I think it is the full price, not the resale price.
The second question ought to be GM's answer, but by default I think you get to choose (since it is presumed you would have sold random gear to by ideal gear).
WBL is not an exact science. Paizo's published modules tend to include more placed treasure than the table would indicate, accounting for unfound treasure. Things like WBL tables help to standardize the process, but there's no replacement for GM observation and balance (i.e. trial and error).
No system could be perfect in this regard anyway, since GP is a significant abstraction of power. You could spend less GP more effectively or more GP ineffectively and that would affect your power level in very meaningful ways. The GM is very important here.
Thanks, though I'm sorry to see that no consideration has been given to the huge difference that arises when found items and crafting come into play.
When items have such a big impact on character power, such issues should really be clearly adressed in the rules. My group is struggling to reconcile these differences and I was hoping, after all of these years, it had been dealt with. Alas it seems to have gone the way of grappling (that is, still a mess :).
It's left purposefully vague in order to give the GM more room to set what he is comfortable with in his games.
Please note that the WBL guidelines are just that guidelines not 'rules' as such they are suggestions for a GM on what pace a 'standard' game would come close to following. If you check the treasure per encounter tables you'll find the total treasure per encounter over the course of a campaign will run higher than what the party will need for WBL.
This is to account for items being used, broken, lost, sold or stolen. If a GM finds his party is running below wealth by level (which is based on the buying price which is the price of the item) then he should adjust treasure finds, if the party is running high then again he should adjust treasure finds or tactics until the party is back in line -- unless it is his intention to run the party at the wealth level he is putting them at.
If one wanted to determine a PC's wealth at some point, in order to compare it with the chart or an incoming character, then it looks like
net worth equals the sum of purchased items times purchase price, plus found and crafted items times the sale value of each item
where the sale value is typically half purchase price.
Does that seem right?
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No. You factor the whole purchase price for each price.
note that unless the PC are greedy (or role played as such) or there is little time, there will be a bit of inter group trading, with the wizard crafting wands for other party members while the cleric is crafting weapons and armors and so on.
If you read the magic item crafting rules carefully (and the explanation in the FAQs) you need only a guy with a specific crafting feat in the whole group, then he can collaborate with characters of any class to make appropriate items.
There is a specific example of that in the FAQ, a wizard penning a clerical scroll for a cleric. Both characters are tied up in the crafting process for the whole time and the cleric has to memorize the appropriate spell, but he can get a clerical scroll without ever learning to craft them.
So there is little reason for a guy to lag out in equipment if the group has the time to make it.
I know better than to try and change someone's opinion on the forums, but in case a dev stops by I want to make it clear that factoring in the whole pruchase price for each item definitely will NOT work to calculate an equitable distribution of equipment (for either existing or joining characters).
quick example:
Character A and B adventure for a long time and find 20,000 gp (purchase value, 10k sale value)) in magic items. To be fair, each gets 10,000 gp (purchase value, which would sell for 5k) in items from the loot pile.
Character A is ok using the items he got.
Character B wants different stuff and so sells his share for 5,000gp worth of custom items.
Now Character C joins so the GM calls for a character audit to see where everyone is at with regards to gear value (so the new guy can join in equivalent to everyone else).
Character A has 10k of items (purchase value).
Characgter B has 5k of items (purchase value).
Character C has an unknown amount because the wealth rules are "purposefully vauge".
And if this were an actual game, no one would recall all of the details of what exactly was kept, sold, crafted, and customized so it's very likely that Player B will accuse Player A of taking more than his fair share of loot and the usual arguments will ensue (with the probable result that Character A has to give Character B 2.5k worth of stuff and Character C joins with 7,500gp of custom gear).
Wealth was distributed equally and correctly. What was done after that wealth was distributed is either:
1. Not the GM's problem (a solution much like sticking your head in the sand).
2. GM is supposed to note the difference (and preferences) and adjust future treasure accordingly.
Selling magic items results in LOST value. They are still worth their purchase price.
Character C should join with 10k in gear.
Besides how does using 'sell value' fix the problem?
Character B sells and buys Character A doesn't.
Character A value = 10k retail, 5k sell value
Character B value = 5k retail, 2.5k sell value
Character C value (just joining) = 10k retail, 5k sell value
However in order to fix the in balance perhaps Character B gets a reward from a grateful towns person -- or if a caster perhaps he finds someone to share spells with.
Also something else to consider is that actual 'treasure' such as jewelry or statues (etc) sells for full price.
So if all you hand out is gold and stuff that sells at full value then everyone has to buy stuff and ends at the same spot (at least for the time being).
Again I point out that the treasure per encounter is actually higher than what wealth by level should allow to specifically cover these cases.
And again these sorts of situations are why the guidelines aren't rules -- to allow the GM to adjust for his game and situation as needed.
Selling magic items results in LOST value. They are still worth their purchase price.
To answer the direct question, the character purchases at full price.
Now on to Theory
But WBL is a variable that gets messed up at later levels. It can range from 1/2 the value to characters having 2x the value on the table.
Example:
A Person with a Cohort Enchanter gets 33,000 gold in gear, he then makes it into magical gear the 1/2 is still 33,0000 gold but the purchase value is 66,000 gold. That gives him the treasure allotment of a character 2 levels higher.While another person, lets say the cleric, spends his gold on wands of healing etc.. Sense he has been using expendable items his gold value is below 33,000 maybe way below.
So a starting character coming in at 33,000 gp has an advantage over the character whom has paid for expendable items, nights at the inn, taxes, broken or destroyed goods. Or is at a disadvantage vs. the guy whom gets everything at half cost.
Thus it's tricky.
Given previous the example scenario:
Character A and B adventure for a long time and find 20,000 gp (purchase value, 10k sale value)) in magic items. To be fair, each gets 10,000 gp (purchase value, which would sell for 5k) in items from the loot pile.
Character A is ok using the items he got.
Character B wants all different stuff and so sells his share for 5,000gp worth of custom items.
Character C joins at what net worth?
If we use this formula:
net worth = (purchase price of all bought items) + (sale price of all found and crafted items)
we get:
Character A net worth = 0 (custom items) + 5k (found items) = 5,000 gp
Character B net worth = 5k (custom items) + 0 (found items) = 5,000 gp
Thus character C should join with a net worth of 5,000 gp. This could be 10k (purchase value) of simulated “found” or crafted gear, 5k of custom picked and optimized gear, or a mix. How to simulate “found” gear is another matter entirely (maybe just stuff inherited from the dead guy :).
A more interesting example would be Character D who was also given a 10,000 gp (purchase value, which would have a sale value of 5,000 gp) pile of magic items in his group. Suppose he used 4,000gp (purchase value) of the items as is but sold the rest for custom items – getting 3,000 gp (purchase value) of desired gear. His net worth would be:
Character D net worth = 2k (found items) + 3k (custom items) = 5,000 gp total.
It seems to work out – though I haven’t really looked at how crafting would fit in. I think it would be like found items.
Character C starts at wealth by level -- nothing more. There is no 'items found and crafted' -- he has starting wealth for a character of his level (aka WBL), he pays full price for items just like everyone else does for figuring out their WBL.
No no no Ki_Ryn
Net worth = full value of all items + gold + trade goods.
Just because you can't get the full value back out of a sold item doesn't make it worth less.
I wouldn't want to have people constantly tracking where they got items... for what? Just to do some weird WBL house rule... Not worth it. And your system is STILL unable to cover the use of expendables and broken or lost equipment. Just stick with the way things are supposed to work, your players will thank you.
If some characters are getting all the items they need to equip the way they want and others are having to sell thier share of whatever loot to get things they want to use then the DM should adjust the loot thats dropping. There are other ways of making sure loot and total wealth distribution evens out better. Like if somebody wants a piece of loot to actually use and not jsut sell to buy somehting else then they put the sell price worth of gold into the loot pile or gets that much less of the gold in the loot pile. and anything that gets sold gets it's value is split just like it was a pile of gold at the dragon horde =).
Balancing profit is all up to the DM, if he and the players cant agree on a way to do it then it's a breakdown in the basics of the game.
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I know better than to try and change someone's opinion on the forums, but in case a dev stops by I want to make it clear that factoring in the whole pruchase price for each item definitely will NOT work to calculate an equitable distribution of equipment (for either existing or joining characters).
quick example:
Character A and B adventure for a long time and find 20,000 gp (purchase value, 10k sale value)) in magic items. To be fair, each gets 10,000 gp (purchase value, which would sell for 5k) in items from the loot pile.
Character A is ok using the items he got.
Character B wants different stuff and so sells his share for 5,000gp worth of custom items.Now Character C joins so the GM calls for a character audit to see where everyone is at with regards to gear value (so the new guy can join in equivalent to everyone else).
Character A has 10k of items (purchase value).
Characgter B has 5k of items (purchase value).
Character C has an unknown amount because the wealth rules are "purposefully vauge".And if this were an actual game, no one would recall all of the details of what exactly was kept, sold, crafted, and customized so it's very likely that Player B will accuse Player A of taking more than his fair share of loot and the usual arguments will ensue (with the probable result that Character A has to give Character B 2.5k worth of stuff and Character C joins with 7,500gp of custom gear).
First, if that is happening you have a player problem, not a WBL problem.
Second, what you do when one of your players take only expendable items (wands, potions, scrolls), burn them like crazy and then start this shenanigan calling that the characters of the other players have more WBL than him so he should get compensation?
You really allow him to mooch his way to power?
If one wanted to determine a PC's wealth at some point, in order to compare it with the chart or an incoming character, then it looks like...
The most important bit here .... if the "one" you are talking about is the DM than using that chart to determine how much gold to spend an incoming PC gets is perfectly valid, and they can follow the chart ... or not, as is up to the DM.
An incoming PC or the existing PCs should not be using that chart to compare what they have, the value of what they have or whats fair for the newly arrived PC. That is not the intention or purpose of that chart. I generally tell my players to ignore it completely as it has nothing to do with them ... as in the information there is only important to the DM and only to the degree the DM wants to make it important. Going into the math of WBL is number crunching that the DM is free to engage it ... players using the WBL chart to number crunch only breeds unpleasantness and unfun-ness ... that's not a word but you know what I mean. And a DM who directs players to that chart is not helping matters.
The DM should tell an incoming PC: "You get X gp to spend, make sure no one item is worth more than 1/4 or 1/2 or whatever of that amount" ... and leave everything else to "stuff that happens behind the curtain". You want your players paying attention to the big booming green head Wizard, not the charlatan behind the screen. Toto would make a bad PC. :)
Ran a fighter under 3.5 that amassed a final total of 28k gold, making me among the richest players (btw), but had less than anyone in terms of usable gear. I possessed a +3 suit of leather armor, not used as I was the plate armored muscleman wielding a +2 great sword. Add in a couple of pairs of magic booties and an Elven Cloak and I was there. Magical gear speaking. The Rogue had a matching (literally) suit of +3 leather plus a +4 kukri, +2 returning dagger of wounding and a +2 sap. Add a collection of boots and gloves and her own cloak and she couldn't buy a crust of bread.
GP value can be deceiving, you must make sure the players actually have REAL value, not bank accounts.
If a new PC joins the game at higher levels I think the primary concern for WBL is making sure that he or she isn't significantly better equipped than the existing PCs who have "earned" their gear. If you take a quick count of WBL for the existing PCs and then give the new PC the lowest value (perhaps cut slightly) as starting gold I think you'll probably be safe.
For what it is worth, I think new PCs who arrive out of thin air should generally start at the same level as the lowest level member of the party. I feel that replacement PCs for those who have died or wish to retire for trivial reasons (my AC isn't the highest in the party anymore, I need to build something more overpowered!) should arrive at 1 level lower than the PC they're replacing. The first helps make sure existing players don't feel that the new guy is unfairly better than their PC. The second helps discourage players from committing PC suicide or constantly switching characters to play whatever's most mechanically advantageous at that moment.
EDIT: Since this is in the Rules section I should clarify that these are just opinions on how I like to see things done. The actual rules are in the PRD section on Gamemastering.
(to OP) If you manage treasure as suggested in the Core Rulebook, over the levels, your equipment (buy value=price), money, etc.. will be worth (grand total) about the same ammount noted in the WBL.
That, empirically, is not the case. We play campaign paths exclusively and by mid levels there are huge discrepencies both between players and between the group as a whole and the WPL chart. Even with equal wealth distribution, using found vs bought items can double one PCs wealth with regards to another. By the time levels are into the double digits, that is making a clear difference in the ability of characters to contribute in encounters.
Then when a new characters wants to join with 50,000 gp worth of crafting materials instead of gear, it is clear that an extra sentence or two is really needed in the rule book.
I'm not trying to fix the system just for the fun of it. I'm trying to come up with something that will prevent a repeat of issues we have already seen (multiple times) in play.
I do appreciate the suggestions and information from those who understand the situation. At least it gives me an idea of the how the general population views the issue (or lack there of).
I'm still not sure what the issue here is. If you're the DM and you introduce a character and you, as the DM, think there is a wealth discrepancy between some characters, you, as the DM, have the ability to fix it ... by dropping loot that is geared to a particular PC.
Again, that table is not FOR players. It is for the DM to get a general guideline. What the characters do with their wealth after the pick it up is up to them. If a character decides to do be all paladiny and give it all to some IC charity does that mean it is now unfair because he has less wealth? No ... its the repercussions of his actions. The DM has full control over where they want these wealth levels to be. You don't even have to use that chart for an incoming new PC if you don't want to, its just there as a guideline.