I have been playing pathfinder for a while now but only recently tried my hand at building a monk. Had fun planning out what feats I wanted to take at what level. Started looking into what the forums had to say and noticed a lot of complaining and hating on the monks. But I enjoy the monk concept too much to let it go and kept tinkering with my monk. Finally I had enough of all the hating on the monk and ran the numbers at various level. To my shock I found that they were right. AC is lower compared to a full plate wearing fighter, attack goes lower too. And the whole MAD thing (Multi Ability Dependent).
Monks vs Fighter. Long run Fighter gets higher AC because magic shields and armor. Higher attack because of Weapon Training and magic items. Amulet of Mighty Fists costs x2.5 as much as a similarly enchanted weapon, that is just brutal. Monks robes, up the damage by one level and increase AC +1 but don't even give an enhancement. You could probably add an enchantment bonus to it but it would probably incur a x1.5 increase in cost for multiple abilities.
Monk vs Ranger or Paladin. Instead of Weapon training, the Ranger gets favored enemy and the Paladin gets holy weapons. Both get spells. Both still also get the benefits of affordable weapons and armor.
Monk vs Rogue. Ok I like Rogues as much as the next guy but this is just a travesty. First Rogues get a bump in HD. Next they get rogue tricks. Bleeding Attack, Slow Reflexes, Fast Stealth. On top of being able to drop huge damage with sneak attacks. What did the monks get... Oh and Rogues get the advantage of affordable weapons and armor.
The Monk is supposed to be the eastern version of the fighter, but it looks like they have been demoted to at around or below the Rogue in ability. Now that the Ninja is here to fill the role of eastern Rogue, where is the Monk to go? Enough is enough, I am gonna fix this.
~Wize
Monk
Class Features Fixes---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
I can't get over the Monk's limited range of bonus feats and inability to keep up with the AC and Attack bonuses of his peers. Especially the feats. There are feats that are basically Monk only (spider step, elemental fist, dimensional agility, and ALL the style feats) that the Monk doesn't get as a Monk bonus feats!?!!? If you want these feats and you don't want to be a Monk that's your business, but they were made for Monks.
AC Bonus (Ex): Make the following changes;
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 2nd level. This bonus increases by 1 for every three monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +7 at 20th level. These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is f lat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load
Flurry of Blows (Ex): End of first paragraph should read as follows;
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk’s base attack bonus is equal to his monk level, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus and Strength bonus (if any) to his attack bonus. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus and only his Strength bonus to attack bonus.
Bonus Feats: The following paragraph should be put at the end of this section;
In addition to the bonus feats listed above a monk may take as a bonus feat, any feat that requires a monks special abilities or requires improved unarmed strike, provided that he meets all requirements.
Feats Fixes---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------
These are just things that bug me. Why can't the Ninja walk up walls? Why are these two classes getting two almost identical abilities at the same level. Screw it, simplifying it everyone gets the best of both worlds.
Spider Step
Your physical mastery grants you an impossible stride.
Prerequisites: Acrobatics 6 ranks, Climb 6 ranks, monk level 6th.
Benefit: You have learned to move while barely touching the surface underneath you. As part of your move action you can walk across ropes, branches, walls, ceilings or even water and other surfaces that cannot support your weight. You can divide up this special movement into increments as little as 5ft. You can only move in this way up to a total of half your slow fall distance (maximum 50 feet).
This movement ignores difficult terrain. While moving in this way, any surface will support you, no matter how much you weigh. This allows you to move across water, lava, or even the thinnest tree branches. When moving in this way, you do not take damage from surfaces or hazards that react to being touched, such as lava or caltrops, nor do you need to make Acrobatics checks to avoid falling on slippery or rough surfaces. Finally, when using Spider step, you ignore any mechanical traps that use a location-based trigger. You must reach a solid, level surface that can support your weight by the end of your turn or you will fall.
Special: A Ninja gains this as a bonus feat at 6th level, whether or not she meets the prerequisite. She can move up to half her speed in this manner as part of a move action or up to double her movement as a full round action.
The only way this feat is any good is if it applies to all your attacks. If this is a one shot, once per round, then it is a bad joke at the expense of the Monk. When you've got rogues doing +6d6 sneak attack until the cows come home by the time they reach +8 BAB, what is this supposed to be.
Elemental Fist (Combat)
You empower your strike with elemental energy
Prerequisites: Con 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: When you use Elemental Strike pick one of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. Activating this ability is a swift action. Until the beginning of your next turn all of your successful hits, deals damage normally plus 1d6 points of damage of the chosen type. You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll. You may attempt an elemental fist attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (see Special).
Special: A monk of the four winds receives Elemental Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt an Elemental Fist attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
Item Fixes---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------
I don't know why Monks have to pay so much for magic items. The Amulet of Mighty fists cost 2.5 times as much as a comparable magic weapon! Yes it counts for two weapons in a flurry, so maybe you could justify it as two weapons in one. Which might qualify it for the "multiple abilities" 1.5 times cost multiplier. So it could be as much as a 2 * 1.5 = 3 cost multiplier. But the item only allows for a maximum of +5 enchantment, so I guess that is why it was bumped down to only a 2.5 cost multiplier. In the end a monk pays almost as much for a +5 weapon (125,000gp), while everyone else gets to pay for a +8 weapon (128,000gp).
On the other hand flurry states that the monk may make, "additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon" This implies that the monk could do all his attack with the same weapon. One weapon. In any case its been nerfed to only allow up to a+5 enchantment. On the plus side it doesn't need to have a minimum +1 enchantment to allow for special weapon qualities.
All and all, I ,for my purposes am settling on a 1.5 multiplier and keeping the other restrictions on the item. I think its fair for all sides. The monk gets access to weapons on almost an even level, but the monk still has to pay more. Make the following changes to cost.
Amulet of Mighty Fists
Aura faint evocation; CL 5th
Slot neck; Price 3,000 gp (+1), 12,000 gp (+2), 27,000 gp (+3), 50,000 gp (+4), 75,000 gp (+5); Weight —
Description
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons. Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table 15–9 for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic fang, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus, plus any requirements of the melee weapon special abilities; Cost 1,500 gp (+1), 6,000 gp (+2), 13,500 gp (+3), 25,000 gp (+4), 37,500 gp (+5)
Again the Monk is getting reamed here. +3 Armor costs 9,000 while the Monk's Robe costs 13,000. The monk gets +1 or +2 to AC and Attack dice, but that depends on his level. +1 Bonus for +3 bonus cost seems a little out of whack. So we add enchantment bonus to it without additional penalties but with the same restrictions of the Amulet of Mighty fists. Make the following changes to the description and cost.
Robe, Monk's
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 10th
Slot body; Price 13,000 gp, 14,000 gp (+1), 17,000 gp (+2), 22,000 gp (+3), 29,000 gp (+4), 38,000 gp (+5); Weight 1 lb.
Description
This simple brown robe, when worn, confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the robe lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk (although she does not add her Wisdom bonus to her AC). This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus.
There are versions of these robes that grant enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 to AC. This bonus does interfere with any abilities that require the wearer to be unarmored. Alternatively, these robes can grant special abilities, so long as they can be applied to armor. See Table 15–4 for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item. Monk's robes cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. Monk's robes do not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a armor special ability.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, righteous might or transformation; Cost 6,500 gp, 7,000 gp (+1), 8,500 gp (+2), 11,000 gp (+3), 14,500 gp (+4), 19,000 gp (+5)
~Wize
Why don't you show your work? Cause I've seen monks with rather good AC and attacks -- certainly good enough for a medium BAB class full of special abilities.
As a side note of course the fighter is better at AC and damage -- it's all the fighter does. Honestly the fighter's one big thing is "I hurt things and I'm hard to hurt", why shouldn't he be the best at it?
There now I've fixed the monk. The items are affordable. The AC bonus is fixed. The attacks are much better with WIS being added in during flurry. Much less MAD and closer to SAD (funny Acronyms, lol). The Monk is now one feat (weapon finesse) away from adding both DEX and WIS to both attack and AC. Lastly the Bonus Feats are both more flexible and make more sense.
The Monk still has some vulnerabilities, while still being more inline with the abilities of his peers. When he moves and attacks it still uses his lower BAB and doesn't get WIS as a bonus to attack. He still pays a little more than he should. I left these things in on purpose. The Monk was pretty cool to begin with, I just tuned up the engine.
There its done. I've taken a screen shot of it, so it happened, and its over. Now you guys can argue about how the class that was so under powered, is now sooooo over powered with a few small tweaks that bring it up to par. All the while my new and improved Monk will be looking forward to destroying your Fighters.
~Wize
Abraham read the first post.
Ah I see the problem now -- no concept of the mechanical balances of the game. You should save this thread and come back to it in five years. It should provide many laughs then.
First post
I did Wize -- you provided no proof of concept. You've complained and pointed at potential problem spots, but offered no proof than anything you stated is as you said it is.
In addition you seemed to completely ignored several key points in the development of the current system as it stands.
I would suggest going to the archives and checking out the Beta development threads for the pathfinder system.
at the very least you can agree that the bonus feat list is restrictive and excludes feats that should be there.
Monls are frisking rad is all i have to say. plain and simple.
I'm with Lobolusk, monks are rad.
No I can't really say that even Wize, though I can sort of understand the feeling.
Look at this:
Fighter Bonus feats:
1 at first level +1 on every even level -- have to meet all prerequisites.
Total Bonus Feats: 11 must meet prerequisites, but has ultimate choice passed that fact.
Monk Bonus Feats:
Three at first level (improved unarmed strike ++, Stunning Fist, bonus feat) + 1 at second level +1 every four levels + flurry of blows which equals all three two weapon fighting feats.
Total Bonus feats: 11 without having to meet prerequisites, but has more limited choice on which feats it can take.
However this doesn't really show the full extent of it. Because there are also the archetypes -- which change what feats are available for monks, and add to the list, if not hand out extra feats on top of what is already received. Even if we include the weapons and armor as bonus feats for the fighter we aren't looking at a huge number of bonus feats over what the monk has in total bonuses.
For secondary powers fighters have:
Weapon training, Armor Training, Bravery
For 'secondary powers' monks have:
Ki Pool, Evasion, Fast Movement, Armor Bonus (better than armor training because by itself it actually provides a bonus), CMD bonuses from extra stats, and more immunities, all good save throws.
In fact if you count in bracers of armor a monk can actually meet the AC of fighters, however it does require paying very close attention to what you are doing.
And honestly, I'm okay with that. The monk isn't really a class I would recommend for every player. In fact I would only recommend it for players that have shown a talent for the numbers and have an advanced understanding of the system involved. A well built monk probably won't out damage a fighter -- however he shouldn't he has other things he can do that the fighter simply cannot do at all. The monk can come very close to matching the AC of a fighter. Which is also fine, since he's likely to be mixing it up in melee just like a fighter is.
Like Cockatrice Strike.at the very least you can agree that the bonus feat list is restrictive and excludes feats that should be there.
yes
;)
In fact if you count in bracers of armor a monk can actually meet the AC of fighters, however it does require paying very close attention to what you are doing.
I'll grant you this, I did forget about those bracers. To much time spent playing a wizard, using sheild and mage armor instead.
Monks are rad!
they need those style feats on the bonus feat list
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In fact if you count in bracers of armor a monk can actually meet the AC of fighters, however it does require paying very close attention to what you are doing.
And honestly, I'm okay with that. The monk isn't really a class I would recommend for every player. In fact I would only recommend it for players that have shown a talent for the numbers and have an advanced understanding of the system involved.
My only disagreement here is that I think every option should be as easy to build and ply together as every other option. Especially since few people play things for mechanics, but for flavor.
On that note, almost universally since I've started playing inexperienced, or unnattentive players have been the ones that have gravitated to the monk because of the class's innate radness. This can be problematic when the player doesn't have any idea as to how to properly build the character for the roles envisioned by that player.
Well the master of many styles does have them on that list... however I really wouldn't like to see the style feats universally available to every monk personally.
There should be some feats that a monk actually has to work towards instead of simply being another give me that he can have for free, and meeting the prerequisites for the style feats really isn't that hard for a monk to do in the first place.
Another part is each time a feat becomes a bonus feat that can be taken 'for free' by another class it does hurt the fighter just a little bit more since he has a much harder time meeting prerequisites for feats than anyone else does.
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Ok, looking at this from 20th level. Let’s take our hypothetical monk (we’ll name him . . . Kwai Chang Caine). He is most definitely human.
He’s a 20-point buy with starting ability scores of Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, and Cha 8. We put his floating +2 racial bonus into Str, raising it 16. Since Caine is well-balanced (in the TV show), his level-up ability increases are as follows: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +1 Str. That gives the 20th level character Str 17, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, and Cha 8.
He’s got eleven feats (ten from advancement and one from being human), plus Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist. He basically possesses all three Two-Weapon Fighting feats when using flurry—and he has SIX more bonus feats for which he doesn’t have to meet the prerequisites! We’ll put our favored class bonus into skills, so Caine has 140 skill ranks, which lets him max out seven class skills at +23—before ability modifiers. He really only needs Acrobatics, Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth maxed, which means he could have several other skills at lesser bonuses.
For equipment he’s got an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (125,000 gp), a Belt of Physical Perfection +6 (144,000 gp), a pair of Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp), a Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000 gp), a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6 (36,000 gp), a Monk’s Robe (13,000 gp), and a Ring of Protection +5 (50,000 gp). He’s spent 457,000 gp, so he has 423,000 gp left to spend. Caine wasn’t into material possessions, but he was big on improving himself. Let’s buy some manuals and tomes, ok? For that price we can get +15 in inherent bonuses at 27,500 gp a whack, leaving us with 10,500 gp in pocket change. We put +3 in Str, +4 in Dex, and +4 in Wis; leaving us with +4. Just for fun, we put +2 in Cha and add our last +2 to Con (heck, I don’t like having negative ability modifiers). That makes our stats (after magic) as follows: Str 26, Dex 26, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 26, and Cha 10.
Taking a look at the skills, we decide to keep the BIG FOUR maxed and spread the rest of the points around a bit. Acrobatics +31, Climb +15, Craft (Woodworking) +12, Escape Artist +12, Intimidate +12, Knowledge (History) +12, Knowledge (Religion) +12, Perception +31, Perform (Dance) +19, Profession (Law) +12; Ride (Dex) +12, Sense Motive +31, Stealth +31, and Swim +15. Alright, so we make him a really good dancer too.
Feats. For bonus feats, we pick Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, and Medusa’s Wrath. We’ve already got Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist. The rest of our feats are Acrobatic Steps, Blind-fight, Defensive Combat Training, Dodge, Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike), Mobility, Nimble Moves, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Toughness, and Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike).
Our hit points are a grand total of 230 (figured at an average of 4.5 hit points per hit die).
Base Attack Bonus is +15, while our CMB is +34 (+36 when using Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, or Trip). CMD is an astounding +62 (+64 vs. Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, or Trip).
When making an attack as a standard action, Caine’s unarmed strikes are at +29 for 2d10+13 points of damage. However, when he flurries, his attack is +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17 for 2d10+13 damage each. He can power attack if he so chooses, suffering a penalty of -4 to hit and gaining another +8 bonus on damage.
He has a +8 bonus on Initiative checks and can move at a speed of 90’. His armor class is 46 (touch 38, flat-footed 38). He can Stun 21 times a day with a Fort DC of 28, the same as his Quivering Palm DC. He has Spell Resistance 30 and is immune to disease, poison, can’t suffer damage from falling, etc., etc.
Yeah, he’s not quite as good as fully decked out Fighter, but he comes pretty darn close. If the fighter is a sword and board type, he’s got around a 45 AC (25 touch, 33 flat-footed) and should be able to hit at +41/+36/+31/+26 for 1d8+23. That is assuming +5 armor, +5 shield, +5 weapon, a 30 Str, and a 20 Dex. If he TWFs with the shield, his attack bonus goes down. If he doesn’t use a shield to go two-hander, his AC goes down.
In an anti-magic field, this guy still has 20s in Str, Dex, and Wis. His AC is 26 (touch 26, flat-footed 20) and his flurry is +24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9 for 2d10+5 points of damage. His hit points are 170. The fighter? Well, it can vary a lot, but his AC will probably be around 23 (touch 13; flat-footed 20) and his attacks will look at lot more like +33/+28/+23/+18, for 1d8+11.
And this was just using the Core Rulebook. And not exactly optimizing the character out. I’m sure some folks here can make the monk simply obscene.
The Pathfinder monk ain’t weak, bro, he just has to be used smartly.
Master Arminas
For sure, add in APG, and UC and suddenly you have tons of options (And weapon choices too!)
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Wait, where are you seeing hate for the monk? I see TONS of whining/complaining but I haven't noticed hate. Casual readers of these boards who don't play the game probably assume that monk is the only class in the game given how much time people spend on these boards talking about how it should be even more spectacular and amazing.
I believe the Amulet of Mighty Fists is priced where it should be. It's not specifically made only for monks and a lot of other things can get a ton of use out of it. Heck, even Paizo gives it to monsters in some of their adventure paths. Plus there is the whole huge pile of amazing monk weapons that they can enchant and enjoy like Jeranimus said. Sure your unarmed strike damage scales to 2d10, but that isn't a good argument as at 20th level you surely can afford an amulet with whatever bonuses you want stuffed into it, assuming your game even goes to 20 at all which most don't. Just buy a Temple Sword, or a Kama, or even just grab a Quarterstaff and get that thing enchanted.
Erm, this thread might be getting a bit out of hand, remember love and tolerance folks.
Hey Lobolusk! How you been?
Been good just working and spending less time on here due to it.
monks are bathrobed killing machines need i say more?
Ah I see the problem now -- no concept of the mechanical balances of the game. You should save this thread and come back to it in five years. It should provide many laughs then.
Well, more like 5 years and eleven months, but I'm okay with it!
Side note, unchained. All I had to say.PD
Monk flavor this time. Interesting.