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One point to ponder: The rules give information about how to replace a slain familiar, animal companion, etc. The rules for the summoner class give no such instructions for the eidolon -- the assumption seems to be that the eidolon cannot be replaced, which would seem to imply that the eidolon cannot be permanently lost either. Maybe that thing about taking damage and/or being banished for being too far away from the summoner trumps everything else? If so, players of summoners should be sure never to cast a permanent Unfetter spell on their eidolons.
How is one 3rd level spell (magic circle) and one 5th level spell (planar binding) "a lot of effort" when it can be done from anywhere at all?
Because a 5th-level spell isn't trivial. And a 9th-level enemy caster with access to it has plenty of other means at his disposal to kill the PCs.
And given that even if this crazy plan worked, the summoner still has tons of summon monster SLAs at his disposal, so it's not like he's helpless. He's less helpless than a wizard with a disintegrated spellbook, for example.
How is one 3rd level spell (magic circle) and one 5th level spell (planar binding) "a lot of effort" when it can be done from anywhere at all?Because a 5th-level spell isn't trivial. And a 9th-level enemy caster with access to it has plenty of other means at his disposal to kill the PCs.
And given that even if this crazy plan worked, the summoner still has tons of summon monster SLAs at his disposal, so it's not like he's helpless. He's less helpless than a wizard with a disintegrated spellbook, for example.
Just wanted to point out that a wizard isn't terribly defenseless without his spellbook unless he depletes all of his spells. He could easily get revenge before running out.
More than likely, however, he will save what he has left, scribe a new spellbook to preserve them, THEN get revenge.
Yeah, because calling an eidolon automatically gives you all of the other summoner class features like life link, shield ally, master's call, and so on...Ugh. Just what we need. Another stupid, pointless Summoner nerf.
Now anyone with a high enough level Calling subschool spell can completely eliminate the primary class ability of a Summoner.Not at all what I meant. I didn't say they could copy the Summoner's primary class ability, I said they could eliminate it.
By planar binding and killing a Summoner's Eidolon, that Eidolon is permanently dead and the Summoner completely loses his Eidolon class feature for basically the rest of the character's existence. Outsiders can only be resurrected with 9th level spells (true resurrection), and a Called outsider that is slain is slain permanently. The Summoner has no recompense against this.
No other class has anything even remotely resembling this kind of weakness. With no other class in the game can the BBEG be half a world away, hell, even on a private demiplane, cast a 5th level spell, and completely remove one of the PC's This Is The Reason I Play This Class abilities essentially irrevocably.
The Eidolon that is summoned is only an aspect of something much more powerful You would most likely need a gate spell to call it which puts it as Pit Fiend/Balor level at a minimum. It is probably some unique being that can just ignore the call anyway and/or kill you easily when/if it does show up.
The wizard isn't helpless at all unless you remove his spellbook when he's out of prepared spells. He can use spells he has prepared to make a new spellbook,
Which is time-consuming and costs money. And, as he writes them down, they're wiped from his mind, so there's a time when he has no spells at all. And, as wizards generally know more spells than what they can prepare each day, you've still wiped out much of his spell selection.
or just to kill you and take yours.
My point is some guy with access to 5th-level spells can just as easily have the wizard's spellbook stolen while he's taking a bath or on the toilet. If you're the jerk sort of GM who likes to screw PCs.
Also, you can't destroy his spellbook without him getting a chance to prevent it.
Even Ezren has to poop and bathe now and then, and while he may like to read on the throne, I suspect he doesn't read his expensive spellbook in the bath. One mage hand and that 3-pound spellbook flies out the window and into the hands of BBEG's sneakthief.
If you were a PC party facing a powerful NPC Summoner, wouldn't you just love the chance to destroy its Eidolon separately, at a time of your choosing, in a place of your choosing, without having to fight the BBEG or any of his pals at the same time, knowing that when you kill the Eidolon, it stays dead forever?
And if the players did this, why would you try to stop their creative solution to a problematic NPC? (Assuming they know the eidolon's name, which, unless the summoner calls out its name in battle like a Pokemon, isn't automatically known.)
Even Ezren has to poop and bathe now and then, and while he may like to read on the throne, I suspect he doesn't read his expensive spellbook in the bath. One mage hand and that 3-pound spellbook flies out the window and into the hands of BBEG's sneakthief.
Time with a chamber pot yes but bathing not so much. Prestidigitation is a handy spell.
Time with a chamber pot yes but bathing not so much. Prestidigitation is a handy spell.
Even Ezren has to poop and bathe now and then, and while he may like to read on the throne, I suspect he doesn't read his expensive spellbook in the bath. One mage hand and that 3-pound spellbook flies out the window and into the hands of BBEG's sneakthief.
I don't see why prestidigitation couldn't also be used to never really have to go to the bathroom again.
Time with a chamber pot yes but bathing not so much. Prestidigitation is a handy spell.
And you wondered why wizards all have that "crusty old man" smell...
"And given that even if this crazy plan worked,"
Does it or doesn't it?
Even as an all-powerful game developer, I do not have the power to accurately predict whether an eidolon will make its save against planar binding. That's the "if" I was referring to.
Whether or not you can use these spells to conjure someone else's eidolon isn't clearly defined in the rules, and I think it's more interesting if the answer is up to individual GMs.
I agree Sean.
I agree Sean.
As a matter of course, so do I. ;-)
Eidolons don't exist - if they did it would paizo have made the mind blowingly broken Syntisist class - so they don't exist...
Or not in any game I'll ever GM :-)
I think the Developers are secretely Eidolons trying to instigate conflict amongst their Summoner overlords with intentionally vague rulings. A cunning plan.
In which case I'd like to add on to the suggested possibilities. So they exist independent of you, You learn how to summon them, you train them up and choose their new abilities, they evolve into new forms, the implication is you can trade them or use more than one at once with certain archetypes, and you can potentially make them into cutesy Japanese animal like forms?
I hereby announce the new Paizo Spinnoff game:
Eidomon. Extraplanar Monsters.
Coming soon to a nintendo 3ds near you...
Also. If an Eidolon exists but there is no one to summon it, is it really an eidolon?
...
Doesn't that only prove that Eidolons can exist AFTER they're created?
Or simply put, that when an Eidolon is created, a life is created.
I always saw Eidolon's as mutable outsiders. Not an individual entity exactly, but something more metaphoorical. LIke an idea (or nightmare) given form by an individual. They can exist seperately if they have a reason to, such as being unfettered or brought to life by an insane arcanist.
Eidolons are like souls. They're tied to a body, but the soul exists seperately and always has being molded and changed by the process of the afterlife. The soul is reincarnated in different bodies with no memory of it's former existance (usually). They can even be torn from the body and exist seperately (ie ghosts).
In other words they're more vague concept than an actual creature.
My 2C.
I always saw Eidolon's as mutable outsiders. Not an individual entity exactly, but something more metaphoorical. LIke an idea (or nightmare) given form by an individual. They can exist seperately if they have a reason to, such as being unfettered or brought to life by an insane arcanist.
Eidolons are like souls. They're tied to a body, but the soul exists seperately and always has being molded and changed by the process of the afterlife. The soul is reincarnated in different bodies with no memory of it's former existance (usually). They can even be torn from the body and exist seperately (ie ghosts).
In other words they're more vague concept than an actual creature.
My 2C.
More or less the way I view them too. Note that there are actually a fair number of creatures in the Bestiary III that are like this: They are "spirits" that barely exist in the real world (completely unable to interact of effect it, but "there" nevertheless) until they acquire a body somehow.
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By planar binding and killing a Summoner's Eidolon, that Eidolon is permanently dead and the Summoner completely loses his Eidolon class feature for basically the rest of the character's existence. Outsiders can only be resurrected with 9th level spells (true resurrection), and a Called outsider that is slain is slain permanently. The Summoner has no recompense against this.Just out of curiosity, who are you worrying might actually do something like this to your PC that it's such a gamebreaking concern?
If you've got an overly antagonistic DM that would have an NPC perform an act that effectively renders 90% of your character's class abilities useless, then you might have bigger problems.
(Which isn't to say that a DM might not do something like this in the interest of fostering roleplay, to send the Eidonless Summoner off in search of some kind of new bonded Eidolon, which might be a very legitimate maneuver in more trusting DM/Player games.)
I'm not an overly antagonistic DM and I would use this tactic against my player's summoner...with the caveat that it's something an exceedingly ruthless, vengeful, and incredibly intelligent villain would do as a measure to hurt that particular character to put him/her (and in some cases the other party members as well) off their trail. In other words, I wouldn't do it to every summoner in every campaign that I run. The initial time that it's done would be considered brilliant or even genius; continued use of that tactic smacks of a lack of creativity in my mind. I also wouldn't do it unless the summoner had a way to be viable other than through spellcasting and SLA Summon Monsters. The unfettered eidolon would then be a means to enable the return of the eidolon class feature (and all the subsequent abilities that went along with it). It would also be a means for the summoner to reconfigure the eidolon into something other than what they had before based on how they came out of the encounter with the unfettered.
In fact, I'm planning on doing this very thing in my current campaign... Carrion Crown, a campaign where that type of loss is appropriate given the gothic horror theme. It's something that I see Auren Vrood setting up as a trap for the players to walk into. The twist is that unbeknownst to the PCs, Adivion Adrissant will be the one that supplies them with the information that will enable the summoner to gain a new eidolon. In my take on the campaign, the noble feels some sort of bond with most of the PCs as they had a relationship with the Professor. Two of my players do not, as they came into the game after the funeral. So when word of Vrood's actions reach Adivion, he sees this as an opportunity to establish a connection with one of the newcomers and make amends for the loss suffered. It will be the final straw where Auren Vrood is concerned in regard to his actions (he's already killed Petros Lorrimor against Adrissant's wishes after all). Helping the group means they become the instruments of his justice in a manner that leaves him clean with concern to the others of the Whispering Way). The PCs may never find out where the information came from until they actually confront him at Gallowspire.
All I can see are the role-play opportunities that would arise from something like this. Now I have something to look forward to other than the behemoths.
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This is awesome.
Although it does lead to the horrifying mental image, that, somewhere, far away, deep in the cosmos, there's a planet with it's ecological system being torn apart by enormous packs of slavering, large Derplehounds.
Let's get more Unfettered Eidolons in Golarion! An unfettered Eidolon refuge! Maybe something like 'Free Willy', where a small Summoner with a Large Serpentine Aquatic Eidolon go on a quest to let the Eidolon become unfettered aka free.
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I thought the Summoner was since the beginning open to every possibility about the origin and existence of Eidolons. From an ancient and alien power who contracts with the Summoner, to an incarnated dream of her mind, and everything in between and beyond.
This is how I saw them, and that's pretty much what I'm sticking with. I'd rather leave the details of where Eidolons come from, what they are exactly, and what happens to them when the Summoner dies up the player's concept and campaign. Incarnation of an imaginary friend, guardian angel, a genie bound to serve the PC's family, a fiend who the PC made an infernal pact with, or a lunatic artist's muse made flesh....I'd prefer to keep all those possibilities possible.
I think of eidolon's as an extension of the id of the summoner. Like the invisible monster in Forbidden Planet.
So, no, I don't see this plan working.
I would explain unfettered eidolons as those monsters from the id who somehow gained independent existence.
I have yet to see anything published that would contradict this interpretation.