I never bought stuff off the Paizo website until today. I bought my Pathfinder rulebooks retail, and all my other rulebooks used on the Amazon marketplace. I'm also not a big pdf fan (I prefer print copies), but Super Genius was selling pdfs really cheap today, and some of the stuff was stuff I have uses for. So I gave them some money, and got some very useful content for it.
This makes me curious, however. Where does the money I gave them go? Does Super Genius take it all? Does Paizo take some of it? Does the government tax it? The answer doesn't really effect whether I'd buy more (I would), but I'm curious.
What about artists? Do the publishers have to pay artists, or are the publishers themselves artists?
Depends on the publisher. Most publishers pay artists and writers as freelancers, a one-time fee paid for services rendered. Occasionally, you have a product that pays royalties, but that's rare in our industry.
When you purchase items from Paizo.com, money goes from your account to us. Each month, consignors (like Super Genius Games, Open Design, Rite Publishing, or any other third-party who releases material on Paizo.com) receive a check from us (minus our percentage). Our income (and each publisher's income) is taxed by the government according to wherever they happen to be.
As for who pays the artists, that depends on the publisher. Some images are stock art (whether free or not), some art is contracted for a flat rate (or for royalties), and some art may also be done by the publisher themselves (this is rare though).
I bought stuff off the Paizo website until today. I bought my Pathfinder rulebooks retail, and all my other rulebooks used on the Amazon marketplace. I'm also not a big pdf fan (I prefer print copies), but Super Genius was selling pdfs really cheap today, and some of the stuff was stuff I have uses for. So I gave them some money, and got some very useful content for it.
This makes me curious, however. Where does the money I gave them go? Does Super Genius take it all? Does Paizo take some of it? Does the government tax it? The answer doesn't really effect whether I'd buy more (I would), but I'm curious.
So, quick breakdown: when you buy a Paizo product from Paizo, it all goes to Paizo. When you buy a Paizo product from anyone other than Paizo, Paizo was paid the wholesale price for the item when we sold it to the distributor. When you buy a non-Paizo product from Paizo, we either bought it from a distributor or we have it on consignment. If we have it on consignment, we directly pay the person who owns it when it's sold.
That's pretty much how any publication industry works. Either artists/photographers/writers etc. either have a contract that breaks down how royalties and such work, or they are paid one time for each item (say a photographer, a written review, etc.). When you are paid per piece, the usually agreement is that the buyer then "owns" the property and can resell or distribute the material.
The original author usually retains the right to use the materials as part of a portfolio to show off their work, but not to make additional money. This is a very general summation, since contracts and work arrangements can vary wildly.
Thanks.
Chief Technical Officer
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For PDFs, Paizo keeps 25% and the publisher gets 75%. (Most other digital sales venues—including RPGNow, Amazon, and Apple's iBookstore—normally take more than 25%. Sometimes a *lot* more: Amazon keeps 65% for many Kindle book sales.)
Our cut goes to cover (in no particular order) server costs, bandwidth, credit card processing fees, overhead (such as Liz's time manipulating the product listing, Chris's time doing sales reports for the publisher, customer service issues, etc.), some tax on that revenue, and some profit. (Yay for profit!)
How the publisher's cut gets spent is up to them.
For PDFs, Paizo keeps 25% and the publisher gets 75%. (Most other digital sales venues—including RPGNow, Amazon, and Apple's iBookstore—normally take more than 25%. Sometimes a *lot* more—Amazon keeps 65% for many Kindle sales.)
Our cut goes to cover (in no particular order) server costs, bandwidth, credit card processing fees, overhead (such as Liz's time manipulating the product listing, Chris's time doing sales reports for the publisher, customer service issues, etc.), some tax on that revenue, and some profit. (Yay for profit!)
How the publisher's cut gets spent is up to them.
And that's why I chose Paizo for my RPG needs, not some other company.
How does one go about getting content (specifically PDFs) sold at the Paizo store?
Fraust, you can send an email to consigments@paizo.com with any questions that you might have. If you want to publish Pathfinder Roleplaying Game compatible products, I suggest that you become familiar with the sidebar topics on this page (and by extension, the Open Gaming License).
Liz, thank you for the information.
The only publisher that I know of who opens their books to public scrutiny is Evil Hat (there might be others, I just don't know about them, it isn't the industry norm). Fred Hicks, the owner of Evil Hat, has a section of his blog where he posts sales information.
Most of the posts are about the number of copies sold, if you dig around, both on his blog and the web in general, you can usually find approximate printing costs and margins. Over all though, publishing is a pretty narrow margin industry, except for the biggest name sellers. His site won't tell you about life as the bigger publishers but it'll give you an idea of what it's like for the littler guys.
Amazon keeps 65% for many Kindle book sales.)That is Disgusting! I am surprised the Publishing industry has not revolted against this yet.
It's one of the biggest digital book markets out there, and if you're not there, where are you?
It's one of the biggest digital book markets out there, and if you're not there, where are you?Amazon keeps 65% for many Kindle book sales.)That is Disgusting! I am surprised the Publishing industry has not revolted against this yet.
All of the above statements are true.
What really bugs me is that they release new books at the same price as the paperback. So they save money by not printing the books, and pass the savings on to Amazon's pocket. Because of the above percentage, I don't know if the publishers actually make much more per sale. Still, they have to follow the sales.
Amazon keeps 65% for many Kindle book sales.)That is Disgusting! I am surprised the Publishing industry has not revolted against this yet.
It gets worse. Amazon reserves the right to change the price on you. If they want to put it on sale, they will. I've heard a few authors that had their book price changed to be for free. Yea, Amazon was literally giving their book away and not paying authors for it. Amazon has bots surfing the web looking for copies of your book for less elsewhere. If they find it, they reduce the price of your book to match. If you give your book away for free (you know, like the free economy model where you attract customers by letting them try alot or all for free) they'll do the same.
I've heard alot of authors complain about Amazon to no end, but then they'll say that 70-90% of their sales come from Amazon, despite being on iBooks, B&N, and a bunch of other sites.
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Vic Wertz: We are still quietly and discretely funneling funds towards our Super Secret Project for Global Peace {TM}* right?
** spoiler omitted **
Baron, did you forget that what happens at the Super Secret Project *stays* at the Super Secret Project? :)
Since SGG was mentioned above I thought I'd chime in, although what Liz, Chris, and Vic said covers most of it.
In our case we take our cut and once a month split it among the Geniuses, minus what we keep as operating capital. We try to pay all of our freelancers upon acceptance, although sometimes we'll pay earlier if it's someone we've worked with a lot in the past.
And let me say that Paizo always pays, without fail, and often earlier than they have to. :)
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Yeah I am not a fan of Amazon, nor most ebooks. Normally cause for what ever reasons they cost the same as the actual book. That's why I tend to buy most stuff especially RPG's and books. Direct from the company that makes them. Paizo and some 3pp when I can and when I can I go to the local gaming store and Baen books for any novels they sell. Baen sells theirs direct and for less than the actual book, plus gives you a wide range of eformats to DL them in. Wish more companies did that with novels.
Amazon keeps 65% for many Kindle book sales.)That is Disgusting! I am surprised the Publishing industry has not revolted against this yet.
There is pushback. You will note there are no Paizo books on the Kindle market. We're not so much rebelling as just not playing that game.
It's one of the biggest digital book markets out there, and if you're not there, where are you?
On your own site, selling your books your own way? =P
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And let me say that Paizo always pays, without fail, and often earlier than they have to. :)
You're welcome. =)
No, seriously, I try very hard to make that happen. Sometimes it's a, "OMG, it's already the 14th!? I need to pay consigners NOW!" and sometimes I get it done on the 2nd.
Wasn't it amazon that had the deal, that if you went into a local store and scanned a product there with your phone, left without buying it, and bought the same item from amazon they would give you $5?
There's a fair number of other publishers out there, but no one even remotely as big. So if you're looking for the most money possible, your hands are going to get dirty (by the standards of most). If you're looking for enough money, well, it might take a whole lot of work, but there have been examples of it happening *coughcoughpointsattheURLcoughcough*
Amazon keeps 65% for many Kindle book sales.)That is Disgusting! I am surprised the Publishing industry has not revolted against this yet.It gets worse. Amazon reserves the right to change the price on you. If they want to put it on sale, they will. I've heard a few authors that had their book price changed to be for free. Yea, Amazon was literally giving their book away and not paying authors for it. Amazon has bots surfing the web looking for copies of your book for less elsewhere. If they find it, they reduce the price of your book to match. If you give your book away for free (you know, like the free economy model where you attract customers by letting them try alot or all for free) they'll do the same.
OK, now I'm confused. Maybe I'm just woefully ignorant, but I thought that the writer/publisher set the price of e-wares (I've seen the statement next to many Kindle books on Amazon as if it's some sort of apology), and if Amazon decides to discount it (because they want it as a promo/loss leader or whatever), they still had to pay the publisher percentage of whatever the normal sale price would be. I imagine that's most similar to what happens with physical product (you buy it from the manufacturer, and whatever you choose to sell it for after that is up to you -- the manufacturer's already been paid).
Can anyone make sense of my confusion (if indeed I haven't posted it too confusingly)? I just don't understand how a retailer can determine what gets paid for a product after the fact (or seemingly so).
OK, now I'm confused. Maybe I'm just woefully ignorant, but I thought that the writer/publisher set the price of e-wares (I've seen the statement next to many Kindle books on Amazon as if it's some sort of apology), and if Amazon decides to discount it (because they want it as a promo/loss leader or whatever), they still had to pay the publisher percentage of whatever the normal sale price would be. I imagine that's most similar to what happens with physical product (you buy it from the manufacturer, and whatever you choose to sell it for after that is up to you -- the manufacturer's already been paid).
Can anyone make sense of my confusion (if indeed I haven't posted it too confusingly)? I just don't understand how a retailer can determine what gets paid for a product after the fact (or seemingly so).
Maybe for most sane contracts, like at RPG Now or Paizo. Read the Amazon contract. They pay based on percentage of price sold at. And they reserve the right to adjust prices as they see fit. So they can indeed give your book away for free.
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I once worked for a very small software publisher who put in their contracts that they could give product away to promote it. The programmer would get a small percentage of every unit sold. I think 10%-20% was the rate. Then the publisher would pay for listing costs in mail order catalogs by giving the catalog enough products for "free" to cover the cost before collecting any money for sold products.
Often the catalog would sell very few items beyond what it got for "free".
It always seemed like a shady deal to me with the programmer expecting to get something for every unit sold when they weren't making anything on the first 50 or so copies in each catalog.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Maybe for most sane contracts, like at RPG Now or Paizo. Read the Amazon contract. They pay based on percentage of price sold at. And they reserve the right to adjust prices as they see fit. So they can indeed give your book away for free.OK, now I'm confused. Maybe I'm just woefully ignorant, but I thought that the writer/publisher set the price of e-wares (I've seen the statement next to many Kindle books on Amazon as if it's some sort of apology), and if Amazon decides to discount it (because they want it as a promo/loss leader or whatever), they still had to pay the publisher percentage of whatever the normal sale price would be. I imagine that's most similar to what happens with physical product (you buy it from the manufacturer, and whatever you choose to sell it for after that is up to you -- the manufacturer's already been paid).
Can anyone make sense of my confusion (if indeed I haven't posted it too confusingly)? I just don't understand how a retailer can determine what gets paid for a product after the fact (or seemingly so).
No, Readerbreeder is right. The publisher sets the MSRP, and Amazon pays based on that MSRP even if Amazon chooses to lower the price (or give it away).
The real problem there, though, is that most ebook stores have clauses in their contract that say that you have to list your book at the best price offered anywhere else... which means that if Amazon decides to sell your book below list, you're likely now contractually obligated to lower your list price on most other ebook stores to match, which effectively means that Amazon gets to decide the worldwide sale price for your book.
All of the major publishers pushed back on that with Amazon, and Amazon eventually caved *for the big guys only*, but they refuse to make the same change for smaller publishers.
That's what happens when monopolies establish themselves. It's the culmination of a trend that continues from Amazon and Barnes and Nobles drove almost every independent book seller out of buisness.Amazon keeps 65% for many Kindle book sales.)That is Disgusting! I am surprised the Publishing industry has not revolted against this yet.
This troubles me as well. I have seen lots of good shops close down in various areas. My mother in law is struggling with a pet store. She does not have the clout to order thousands of dollars of dog food at a discount price. her prices are usually more expensive because of this.
This move to efficiency has really made competition unfair. Some say that is the way it should be, but I say it is the way to take the human out of the business.
With Borders books shutting down I have to drive far for a barnes and noble. it used to be 10 years ago there were many bookstores within 20 minutes.
That's what happens when monopolies establish themselves. It's the culmination of a trend that continues from Amazon and Barnes and Nobles drove almost every independent book seller out of buisness.Amazon keeps 65% for many Kindle book sales.)That is Disgusting! I am surprised the Publishing industry has not revolted against this yet.This troubles me as well. I have seen lots of good shops close down in various areas. My mother in law is struggling with a pet store. She does not have the clout to order thousands of dollars of dog food at a discount price. her prices are usually more expensive because of this.
This move to efficiency has really made competition unfair. Some say that is the way it should be, but I say it is the way to take the human out of the business.
With Borders books shutting down I have to drive far for a barnes and noble. it used to be 10 years ago there were many bookstores within 20 minutes.
This used to bother me until I tried to get a job at a local book store a few years ago. They were the closest store within 55 miles that sold gaming stuff. They didn't understand their customers in that market, or their college customer either. The owner only wanted to hire women. One of the older women there told me she didn't like the policy because if the owner had his way he would hire just girls with big b0065 (edited for content). When he shut down a couple of years later because he mismanaged all 6 of his stores in Kentucky & Tennessee, I didn't feel sorry at all.
Now, for the true little guy that is really trying to survive, I do feel their pain. I try to support who I can, but I am one of the weird ones that actually like PDFs.
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Chief Technical Officer
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From what I've read elsewhere, Apple only keeps a nickel out of every 99 cent song sold. The bulk of the rest goes to the publishers and it's up to them to pay any artists concerned.For PDFs, Paizo keeps 25% and the publisher gets 75%. (Most other digital sales venues—including RPGNow, Amazon, and Apple's iBookstore—normally take more than 25%. Sometimes a *lot* more: Amazon keeps 65% for many Kindle book sales.)
My understanding is that Apple pays artists and labels 65–70% of sales in the iTunes Music Store. The iBookstore pays 70%.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Amazon keeps 65% for many Kindle book sales.)That is Disgusting! I am surprised the Publishing industry has not revolted against this yet.
For a while, it was pretty much "take it or leave it," and since there was no competition, people took it. Once the iBookstore arrived, and offered publishers much much more generous terms, publishers finally had an alternative, and Amazon eventually caved and began offering a 70% royalty option. However, that option only applies to books set with specific pricing guidelines, and even then only to sales in certain countries; sales of the exact same books in other territories only get the 35% royalty.
Amazon is also, so far as I know, alone in adding a "delivery cost" for eBook publishers, meaning they take out a jacked-up "bandwidth" fee on every sale. (They only do that for books on the 70% royalty plan, though.)