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Are the effects of a beast mutagen cumulative?
In otherwords, at sixth level, do I get 1 alter self power, and 2 beast shape 1 powers?
no
Unless explicitly mentioned, normal rules for stacking (Core Rulebook pg. 13) apply. Therefore, you only get to apply the most powerful polymorph effect/largest size bonus.
There is no need to cite the default rules for every situation, only the exceptions.
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how does the stacking rules even apply to this? The only thing I can think of is you're talking about not allowing speeds to stack.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together
bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or
statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same
type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies.
Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are
added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with
one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or
exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
This has nothing to do with applying abilities from different spells. The abilities of the archetype gives him abilities from the spells, he's not affected by the spells. He's only affected by one polymorph ability, the mutagen. The mutagen is what's giving him the abilities.
RAW nothing in the archetype says that the better abilities replace the lesser.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
Different area of the rules that play into this, also there is this in the polymorph section:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Except.. Mutagen isn't a poly-morph effect. Even the beastmorph isn't polymorph. Even if it was, you are still being effected by only a single effect. The Mutagen. You aren't acquiring any additional forms either with each beast-morph.
In fact if the second one does replace the first one, you would actually show no signs of the mutagen beyond the normal effect of the mutagen.
Except.. Mutagen isn't a poly-morph effect. Even the beastmorph isn't polymorph. Even if it was, you are still being effected by only a single effect. The Mutagen. You aren't acquiring any additional forms either with each beast-morph.
In fact if the second one does replace the first one, you would actually show no signs of the mutagen beyond the normal effect of the mutagen.
Alter Self (Core Rulebook, pg. 240)
School transmutation (polymorph)Beast Shape I (Core Rulebook, pg. 247)
School transmutation (polymorph)
Unless otherwise noted, effects of the same type do not stack. The mutagen is alchemical, instead of a spell, but you follow the same baseline: unless explicitly stated, normal rules on stacking apply.
The beastform mutagen simply adds abilities from the named spells in addition to the normal mutagen bonuses. Since the extra abilities come from the same effect type, they overlap.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The standard rules for stacking standardly say of two effects. It doesn't matter the slightest bit of what the spells are, cause you aren't effected by the spells.
In no way shape or form do the spells ever touch your character. You aren't drinking the mutagen and having beast shape 1 cast on yourself.
It is just providing you with a handy list of effects that the mutagen can give. You aren't getting the extra abilities from two polymorph effects, but instead one mutagen that just happens to use the polymorph effects as a list. As a result, you could actually use wildshape, and retain the abilities from your mutagen.
You guys are going way too deep into this. Here's several RAW references that apply to mutagens, under the class description, that any alchemist needs to know about before he starts trying to break rules. These are all very clear, and not up for debate unless your GM decides to override or ignore them:
Advanced Player's Guide, pg. 28, under MUTAGEN:
"Whenever an alchemist drinks a mutagen, the effects of any previous mutagen immediately end."
Advanced Player's Guide, pg. 30, under INFUSE MUTAGEN:
"This does not allow an alchemist to gain the effects of multiple mutagens-only the most recently imbibed mutagen has any effect."
Advanced Player's Guide, pg. 28, under MUTAGEN:
"An alchemist can only maintain one dose of mutagen at a time-if he brews a second dose, any existing mutagen becomes inert."
Advanced Player's Guide, pg. 28, under MUTAGEN:
"An alchemist can gain the effects of another alchemist's mutagen if he drinks it. (Although if the other alchemist creates a different mutagen, the effects of the "stolen" mutagen immediately cease.)"
That's all well and good if this was a debate on multiple uses of mutagen. However it is a debate on whether or not the next version of beast-form mutagen replaces the previous versions or if the effects are culminate within a single dose of mutagen.
In the end you lose poison immunity, swift alchemy, swift poisoning and persistent mutagen.. to gain 4 temporary abilities.. In light of class archtypes like the geshia.. I figure that thats probably what they wanted.
Which of course I find dumb that you lose persistent mutagen for an archtype based on mutagen. I'd personally rather lose the discovery of that level. Cause currently it would be like a gunslinger who say gets a really awesome rifle skill at level 7. But before he can get to level 7, he has 6 levels of stupid pistol tricks, like "Pistol Juggler" and "Gansta shootin".. But an archtype came out for rifles that removed those stupid pistol ones allowing him to focus on rifles.. but replaced the cornerstone ability the rifler was looking for with "Rifle Juggler"
Since it is not explicitly stated otherwise, the baseline is that similar effects overlap. Period.
Otherwise, you have 10th level beastform alchemists running around with six extra abilities from their mutagens (one from alter self, two from beast shape I, and three from beast shape II) and 14th level beastform alchemists with TEN (four more from beast shape III). At which point, everyone except the munchkins complains about how overpowered the archetype is compared to druids and why would anyone play anything else. If you want a broken game at 10th level, go right ahead and let the extra abilities stack (or try and find a GM who will allow it).
It's not like the non-stacking version is all that weak, anyway. Basically, it just allows the beastform alchemist to incorporate the effects of an extract into their mutagen (also benefiting from the longer duration of the mutagen) at about the point when that extract formula can be learned (one level early for alter self and beast shape I, same level for beast shape II, and one level after for beast shape III).
That's all well and good if this was a debate on multiple uses of mutagen. However it is a debate on whether or not the next version of beast-form mutagen replaces the previous versions or if the effects are culminate within a single dose of mutagen.
Oops yeah definitely misunderstood. My bad. I guess I wasn't looking DEEP ENOUGH into it. LOL.
Still it annoyes me, that we get an archtype that would greatly improve mutagen usage, and they take away the best thing for mutagen (persistent)
would have been nice if they had, i dunno, taken away the 14th level discovery instead.. possibly the instant alchemy at level 18 too.
I think the rules are quite clear on this:
"At 14th level, a beastmorph’s mutagen [ie. the one mutagen he gets as an Alchemist class feature] grants him four of the abilities listed in the beast shape III spell, which persist as long as the mutagen."
That's an all encompassing and definitive statement. "At 14th level" means everything that concerns the beastmorph mutagen and was before that is superseded by this new beastmorph mutagen.
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If the devs intended that Grand Beastform Mutagen superseded all previous mutagens, don't you think they would have just come out and said that? Since you are replacing a normal alchemist ability for every step in the progression, why would you somehow 'lose' those previous abilities when you get new, better ones?
If you do indeed lose the lower level Beastform Mutagen abilities when you get the higher level ones, why doesn't a fighter lose weapon training with the first group of weapons when he selects a second? Or a Druid lose the ability to wild shape into small and medium animals when he achieves large and tiny sizes at 6th level? Or a Paladin lose the shaken mercy when he takes the frightened mercy?
Was the fact that you are intended to get more and more beast-like abilities as the class progresses so unclear? And why don't we have an errata for this nearly six months later?