Actually, unlike stuff like profession and craft, perform can even be used untrained. So anyone with a cha bonus could reasonably try it. That part I kinda disagree with. I think some performance skills should work untrained (singing, oratory), but instrument skills should require training.
I don't know. I know that I can pick up a flute and blow into it and the result is something resembling music.
I know that I can sit at a piano and hit they keys.I won't be able to play Mozart on it, but very very basic melodies I'll manage.
I'm really talking stuff like children songs or so, or even easier.
If I try anything harder though, I'll make a fool out of myself. Same with singing actually. I'm terrible at it. I can sing along with christmas songs, but that's pretty much it.
Think about it that way, as long as you don't have a negative Cha mod, you can take 10 and hit a DC 10 perform untrained. But DC 10 is really the lowest DC there is. If you have only 8 Cha or so, then even that is a 50/50 gamble :)
A bard at 1st level can probably hit DC 20 without problem and more if he tries. However note, that as a bard you don't even NEED any ranks in any perform to do Bardic Performance, that requirement was also scratched with PF. You still want ranks in some of it for Versatile Performance, but that's different.
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@Give me a rebel song any day. 5 minute casting time, hours duration, bonus to chaotic allies. Give me a tale of a martyr: 10 minute casting time, +1 caster level for divine spells.MMOs like EQ and DAoC stuck with the 'bardsong in combat' theme, but Star Wars Galaxies and, IIRC, Lord of the Rings Online, had entertainers or 'bards' that instead sang songs between fights, allowing allies to recover fatigue and wounds faster and / or gave them bonuses that would last a certain amount of time afterwards.
That's certainly an interesting paradigm shift. Instead of giving the cleric channel energy (which is, more often than not, used between combats anyway), giving bards a 'healing song' that they use in between combats, or perhaps even a magic replenishing song that allows them to restore expended spell slots would allow them to fix up a party in between encounters, and, if accompanied by various morale bonuses that they could use as 'pre-buffs,' such as generic pluses to attack, damage, saves, or, more interestingly, single use abilities such as an extra move action (taken once in the next encounter, after being inspired by the bard), or a single reroll of a saving throw or attack roll (once in the next encounter), could make for a completely different sort of bard, who prepares his group before a fight, and helps them recover after a fight, but doesn't necessarily use bardic performance at all *during* a fight.
Believe it or not, 4th edition D&D actually has a bard class feature similar to the healing song you're asking for. The fact that everything revolves around combat and what happens during "encounters" is one of my complaints about 4e. But I recently made a bard for a 4e campaign, and he actually gets a power that lets him play music for 5 minutes between encounters (during a "short rest", for those who know 4e game mechanics and know what that is), giving a healing bonus for anyone who heals themselves while listening to him play. (extra HP healed equal to my charisma modifier on each healing surge used, for those who know 4e)
Give me more masterpieces. And make them available to non-bards. I'd love a fighter/rogue chronicler. Or a cavalier writing inspiring poetry.
Way back during the beta, I had suggested eliminating the performance skill and replacing it with performance feats. They would have worked along the lines of masterpieces, but anyone (meeting the prereqs) could take them, and Bards in particular would receive quite a few as bonus feats.
I still think that would be a really great way to do it. The bard definitely feels feat starved, which really limits the appeal of masterpieces. Worse yet, there are 2-3 really great bard feats that have cropped up, and they're nearly "mandatory" IMO, which makes the bard's feat selection feel even more inflexible.
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Give me more masterpieces. And make them available to non-bards. I'd love a fighter/rogue chronicler. Or a cavalier writing inspiring poetry.Way back during the beta, I had suggested eliminating the performance skill and replacing it with performance feats. They would have worked along the lines of masterpieces, but anyone (meeting the prereqs) could take them, and Bards in particular would receive quite a few as bonus feats.
I still think that would be a really great way to do it. The bard definitely feels feat starved, which really limits the appeal of masterpieces. Worse yet, there are 2-3 really great bard feats that have cropped up, and they're nearly "mandatory" IMO, which makes the bard's feat selection feel even more inflexible.
Which bard feats are you talking about as being nearly mandatory? I'm still relatively new around here, and I'm making a bard character, so any advice would be helpful.
Which bard feats are you talking about as being nearly mandatory? I'm still relatively new around here, and I'm making a bard character, so any advice would be helpful.
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh, I got this one.
The only "mandatory" bard feat, IMO, is Spellsong. It lets you hide your casting as talking if you have ranks in Perform(Oratory).
Discordant Voice is nice, at level 11. I can't think of a single feat that has the bonus damage potential that even comes close to that feat.
Lingering Performance can be nice, but I'd only consider it mandatory for Archaeologists.
The only "mandatory" bard feat, IMO, is Spellsong. It lets you hide your casting as talking if you have ranks in Perform(Oratory)
I would disagree. Spellsong is flavorful, but is really more of a roll playing feat. I would probably never use it in combat. Now if you really like casting a Confusion spell on the guards to get through the city gates, this would be a great way to go.
Lingering Performance can be nice, but I'd only consider it mandatory for Archaeologists.
I actually like the Lingering Performance feat a lot. It helps at low lvls when it takes a standard action to start a performance and you have so few rounds of BP per day. Essentially, by taking one standard action every 3 rounds you triple your rounds of BP each day. And that bonus continues even when starting a performance is reduced to a move or swift action.
Its benefit levels out at higher lvls, but it really keeps the party going when things get tough and they run out of most of their other resources.
And actually, Archeologists don't ever get BP, so Lingering performance is useless for them.
Spellsong is more useful in non-combat situations, yes. Still really good. If you're using illusions (or other spells with concentration), it's good then too. It's basically the only way for non-Sandman bards to get around that pesky "all spells cast by bard always involve shouting magical words".
My issue with Lingering Performance is that if you don't beat the enemy in 3 rounds...you have to use another standard action to start performance. Once you get to level 7, it's fine, since you can use a move action. But by then, you have...~18 some rounds per day. That's more than enough for all but the longest day.
Also:
Archaeologist’s luck is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, effects, and the like that affect bardic performance.
Our games usually includes longer fights and the issue of per day resource attrition, so for our group it's a big boon. If yours don't then yeah, I see not taking it.
As for the archeologist quote, I had just read that ability before posting, but must have missed that line. So yes, a definite must-have for him given the strict 4+cha per day limit.
That's very true! In a combat-heavy / non-combat light game, I wouldn't recommend spellsong.
And no worries! FWIW, Russ Taylor, who made the archetype, later mentioned that he wishes he had given them +1 round per level.
Cannot downplay the value of harmonic spell, either. Although that one does have a curve on its value, it is often too good to pass up.
Cannot downplay the value of harmonic spell, either. Although that one does have a curve on its value, it is often too good to pass up.
Too bad no one can take it since Bardic Music doesn't exist anymore :p
Even In combat spellsongl can undermine the enemy's ability to figure out enchantments on his allies, etc. it doesn't just solve a bard problem, it creates potential for discreet magic in general. Otherwise, be prepared to jack up the spell level with meta magics.
It's better than good, it's great.
Even In combat spellsongl can undermine the enemy's ability to figure out enchantments on his allies, etc. it doesn't just solve a bard problem, it creates potential for discreet magic in general. Otherwise, be prepared to jack up the spell level with meta magics.
It's better than good, it's great.
So, Spellsong, Harmonic Spell, and what's the third?
I'd like to see what people think are the necessary ones, so I can look at them more closely when I work on my bard guide.
Even In combat spellsongl can undermine the enemy's ability to figure out enchantments on his allies, etc. it doesn't just solve a bard problem, it creates potential for discreet magic in general. Otherwise, be prepared to jack up the spell level with meta magics.
It's better than good, it's great.
Why would you have to pump it up with metamagic? If you're in combat and they can tell you are a bard (or that anyone has spells for that matter) I would assume that it would be relatively simple for them to tell it's a spell anyway, giving them the same options to overcome it regardless (though it might take more to ID you as the caster).
Where does metamagic come into play? Increasing the dmg/DC? If that was your plan doesn't Spellsong actually get in the way of accessing those feats (seeing as it's a feat itself, draining the same limited resource pool)?
Spellsong specifically says viewers must make a perception or sense motive to see that you're casting a spell. If they fail, they don't know you're casting.
I think Evil Lincoln's reference to metamagics was the Still Spell. Which unfortunately doesn't help much, since you're still shouting at the top of your lungs arcane words. This feat lets you hide those words in some performance check.
I'd like to see what people think are the necessary ones, so I can look at them more closely when I work on my bard guide.
The only one I see so far is Discordant Voice.
I can't find Harmonic Spell, so I'm guessing Evil Linclon meant Harmonic Sage which only works in artificial structures. And that only boosts the DC of your BP effects by +1 (of which there aren't too many) or gives a lesser Lingering Performance effect (one additional round instead of 2).
The closest thing I see to another "must have" feat is the Winds of the Five Heavens masterpiece which can also be gained via sacrificing a 4th lvl spell known but which allows you to cast Control winds for 3 rounds of BP (albeit taking 3 rounds to cast).
Given that the tornado force winds you can summon to cover a 1 mile area at 20th lvl, require a Fort save to avoid being picked up by, and deal 6d6 dmg/round for 1d10 rounds to any creature failing that save (after which they get to repeat the process) for a duration of 10 min/lvl, that's a pretty cheap ability at 3 rounds of BP!
Harmonic Spell is from ISWG.
Harmonic Spell. It's quite good for a spellcasting bard (which uh...should only be Magicians, IMO). And decent for all others.
Thanks for the link Cheapy. That actually is pretty useful, both at high and low levels at least for a spellcasting bard as you say. I could see it meshing well with a Theurge bard, giving them access to a lot more rounds of BP per day.
Not core, though, so be sure to mention that in your guide if you include it.
Where's Theurge bard? I'm trying to find 3pp archetypes.
Nonono, a Mystic Theurge bard. He could use spells from either list to extend BP rounds and would have many more spells to accomplish this. His actual bonuses from BP would never be that great, but it would be a more-or-less effective way to build a prestige classed bard without just killing the bard end of things.
Sorry for the confusion.