RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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This is a semi-hypothetical situation, an amalgam of a few sessions I've GMed and played in.
A party of levels 4, 4, 5, 5, and 7 are playing a Tier 3-7 scenario. The APL is (25 divided by 5) 5, and so the players decide to "play up" to sub-tier 6-7. So far, all is in working order.
Within an hour, real time, the 7th-level cleric is killed dead. There's probably enough resources to have her raised at the end of the scenario, but the party is suddenly down most of its healing (even if she were raised in the middle of the adventure, only one of the negative levels could be removed this week.) The players realize their characters are out of their weight class.
They can (a) turn around and report to the Venture Captain back in Absalom that they were unable to complete the mission. Or they can (b) ... ?
Whatever they do or do not do, they will not be able to play the scenario again for credit. So if they believe they can survive at least the required 3 encounters to qualify for XP, and perhaps complete faction missions for one PP, then they should try.
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I once ran a 5-9 with two level 6s a level 7 and a level 9. This averaged to 7. So I gave them the choice to play up or down and they all chose up.
Right after the 1st encounter the level 9 player had a personal emergency come up and had to leave bringing the table down to 2 level 6s and a level 7.
At the time, after consulting with the players I choose to give them a lvl 7 pregen to bring them back up to 4 characters and run the rest of the mod at 5-6 and give them the rewards for 5-6. I also did not give the level 9 a chronicle sheet and I believe he "replayed" the adventure at some point.
Looking back, I think a strict reading of the rules would have required them to continue at subtier 8-9 (or also leave and never play the scenario again) and I should have given the level 9 a chronicle sheet with only the gold/items from the first encounter.
Obviously, a slightly strange situation and not one I really expect the guide to cover. That said, I think under the circumstances, I made the right call.
I'm sure this is illegal, but on one occasion we had a situation like you describe (although I think it was actually one player getting called away on an emergency) and the GM handled it by adding a pre-gen to the party.
EDIT: Looks like Pirate Rob did the same thing in the same circumstance.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I have a reputation on these boards as a hard-nosed, "lawful" sort of GM, and I hope to trade on that reputation now.
So, continuing the not-entirely-hypothetical, the PCs flee back to the grand lodge. Session over. 0 XP, 0 Fame, and probably 0 gold. And probably 4 hours until the next slot, a table of players who want to play the adventure, and a GM who has prepped the adventure and is ready to go.
I guess I don't understand who is served by the decision that bars them from that adventure.
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I have a reputation on these boards as a hard-nosed, "lawful" sort of GM, and I hope to trade on that reputation now.
So, continuing the not-entirely-hypothetical, the PCs flee back to the grand lodge. Session over. 0 XP, 0 Fame, and probably 0 gold. And probably 4 hours until the next slot, a table of players who want to play the adventure, and a GM who has prepped the adventure and is ready to go.
I guess I don't understand who is served by the decision that bars them from that adventure.
Bad scenarios happen, not every outing is a success.
How many encounters have they gone through? If enough they still may get XP.
Did they find any money? If so they should get that.
Did they finish any faction missions? if so they should get the PA for that.
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Assuming that the players did not reach the third encounter, and they essentially abandoned the scenario as a result of a poor decision to play up, I might allow them to try again, time permitting, at the lower sub-tier.
All effects from the first attempt would be counted (death, spent consumables, etc). They would need to understand that it would be very unlikely they would have the time to complete the entire scenario, but perhaps they could get further along than their first attempt and increase the chances that Fame/GP would be earned. Perhaps even the XP.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I have a reputation on these boards as a hard-nosed, "lawful" sort of GM, and I hope to trade on that reputation now.
So, continuing the not-entirely-hypothetical, the PCs flee back to the grand lodge. Session over. 0 XP, 0 Fame, and probably 0 gold. And probably 4 hours until the next slot, a table of players who want to play the adventure, and a GM who has prepped the adventure and is ready to go.
I guess I don't understand who is served by the decision that bars them from that adventure.
If you play up you are accepting a greater risk. Part of that risk is the risk that you will fail. I see it almost like the guy who puts a bet on a football game then when he sees his team is losing at halftime says "Hey I was just kidding about that $50 bet"
The alternative to twiddling your thumb for four hours is have the players bail from the higher subtier then let them replay the rest of it at the lower tier for no credit.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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As a PFS GM, I've had to adjust the tier for a scenario at least once. The party decided to "play up" and legally were able. The second encounter involved a Construct that took the highest level character to negative hit points with his first attack... and the party had no way of beating its DR. I took a game pause, and when I called them back, I offered to let them restart that encounter with the lower tier challenge, as long as they 1) kept the same initiative count, and 2) understood they would only receive the lower tier rewards for the scenario. They agreed and Game On! Went much better the second time.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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As a PFS GM, I've had to adjust the tier for a scenario at least once. The party decided to "play up" and legally were able. The second encounter involved a Construct that took the highest level character to negative hit points with his first attack... and the party had no way of beating its DR. I took a game pause, and when I called them back, I offered to let them restart that encounter with the lower tier challenge, as long as they 1) kept the same initiative count, and 2) understood they would only receive the lower tier rewards for the scenario. They agreed and Game On! Went much better the second time.
I really think that is unfair to anyone who has ever chosen to play up and fallen prey to a TPK or even a character death.
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You pick the scenario difficulty when you start and you are stuck with it. If you choose to play up you need to cope with the scenario as it is. If you are in over your heads your best bet is to cut your losses and flee.
It's amazing how many people don't even consider fleeing.
I was once asked by an irate player what I would have done in a losing situation in one mod. It took me all of 2 seconds to say 'run away'. He was shocked and obviously hadn't even considered that was ever an option.
Sometimes failing a scenario in order to live another day is the best option.
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I really think that is unfair to anyone who has ever chosen to play up and fallen prey to a TPK or even a character death.
I agree. I do think that it's a GM's duty though to clearly explain the risk the players are putting themselves in by playing up. I usually explain that a +3 CR is considered doable, but very challenging, +5 is usually considered impossible, and that in playing up, while not guaranteed, a EPL+3 could happen.
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For what it's worth I've done it both ways.
When I know a module well enough, I will often give advice for which sub-tier to play (assuming they have a choice). Sometimes to ease the party's decision and avoid player conflict, I will offer them a deal: Play at the high tier, but if it's too difficult (i.e. not enjoyable), you can call uncle. If you call uncle, you'll be bumped down to the lower tier, including the rewards you've already earned. They also can't call uncle in the middle of an encounter.
If a party comes to me and is confident they want to play up (with or without my input), there's no option to get out of it.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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I really think that is unfair to anyone who has ever chosen to play up and fallen prey to a TPK or even a character death.
Would you feel the same if you knew that two of the six players were brand new, with the experienced player at the table goading them into playing at the higher tier? And tha the only reasion they "legally" hit higher tier is because of the "full table = +1 Level" rule? Or that one of the players had just purchased his Core Rules book an hour before the session started and this was his first ever game? Would that be a great way to introduce a new RPGer to Organized Play? And what do you think the chances are that player would ever have returned following this experience?
As an organizer, I have to take ALL of that into consideration EVERY game I run. If I want Organized Play to grow, I'll bend the rules in favor of FUN over MECHANICS every time. Because it is a GAME!
...Sorry... end of rant!
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Would you feel the same if you knew that two of the six players were brand new, with the experienced player at the table goading them into playing at the higher tier? And tha the only reasion they "legally" hit higher tier is because of the "full table = +1 Level" rule? Or that one of the players had just purchased his Core Rules book an hour before the session started and this was his first ever game? Would that be a great way to introduce a new RPGer to Organized Play? And what do you think the chances are that player would ever have returned following this experience?
As an organizer, I have to take ALL of that into consideration EVERY game I run. If I want Organized Play to grow, I'll bend the rules in favor of FUN over MECHANICS every time. Because it is a GAME!
...Sorry... end of rant!
I avoid that entire issue by telling vet players to keep their mouth shut and ask newer/lower level players first, one at at a time. I do not approve of peer pressure when it comes to playing up.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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For what it's worth I've done it both ways.
When I know a module well enough, I will often give advice for which sub-tier to play (assuming they have a choice). Sometimes to ease the party's decision and avoid player conflict, I will offer them a deal: Play at the high tier, but if it's too difficult (i.e. not enjoyable), you can call uncle. If you call uncle, you'll be bumped down to the lower tier, including the rewards you've already earned. They also can't call uncle in the middle of an encounter.
If a party comes to me and is confident they want to play up (with or without my input), there's no option to get out of it.
This is the kind of GM I'd be in such a situation. Occasionally you run into that scenario or two that has an encounter that is flat unwinnable for PCs a couple levels lower than they should be (usually something with DR) and it's no fun for anyone to TPK because there was nothing the players could have done differently.
Yes, I'm aware they could have elected not to play up, but my counter-argument would be this. If your goal is to educate these players as to the real dangers playing up, both killing them and giving them the chance to play down accomplish that. As Chris said, "who is served by the decision that bars them from adventure?"
If the same PCs play up each time and are continually spared from the executioner's blade, however, things may need to change.
I really think that is unfair to anyone who has ever chosen to play up and fallen prey to a TPK or even a character death.
This is something to consider as well. I've lost several long-time campaign characters and feel a twinge of pain in any game where the GM does something along the lines of "well, that fatal blow was actually NON lethal damage" to a fellow player that should have died.
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All I can add to this is to say... "Kyle" happens, then you die.
Scenario A:
Kyle: Do you guys want to play up?Players: No
Kyle: (An hour later...maybe) you're all dead. Muahahaha!
Scenario B:
Kyle: Do you guys want to play up?
Players: Yes
Kyle: (immediately) Hands the players their chronicle sheets marking them dead. (Then walks away to report their deaths)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Would you feel the same if you knew that two of the six players were brand new, with the experienced player at the table goading them into playing at the higher tier? And tha the only reasion they "legally" hit higher tier is because of the "full table = +1 Level" rule? Or that one of the players had just purchased his Core Rules book an hour before the session started and this was his first ever game? Would that be a great way to introduce a new RPGer to Organized Play? And what do you think the chances are that player would ever have returned following this experience?
As an organizer, I have to take ALL of that into consideration EVERY game I run. If I want Organized Play to grow, I'll bend the rules in favor of FUN over MECHANICS every time. Because it is a GAME!
...Sorry... end of rant!
I have a HUGE fairness bug and this really bothers me. Again, how is that fair to the guy who does the same thing and gets his character killed?
Players who are involved in goading shouldn't be rewarded by getting a free pass.
Newbies on the other hand, sure. But you always have the option to just run the lower tier and tell the bullying players to stuff it.
Edit: Shortened. Toned down
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For what it's worth I've done it both ways.
When I know a module well enough, I will often give advice for which sub-tier to play (assuming they have a choice). Sometimes to ease the party's decision and avoid player conflict, I will offer them a deal: Play at the high tier, but if it's too difficult (i.e. not enjoyable), you can call uncle. If you call uncle, you'll be bumped down to the lower tier, including the rewards you've already earned. They also can't call uncle in the middle of an encounter.
I've taken this que and done the same thing ... rarely have parties gone down a tier after the first encounter ... on the flip side I've had them ask to go up a tier (they were eligible) after the first couple encounters -- I'm always game to play up, but if they've already gone thru two encounters they only get the rewards for the lower tier that they started with.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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A couple of notes:
1) Since the high level character was the one taken to negative HP, I feel he learned his lesson on trying to convince the other players to play up! He was also the first one to jump on the offer of playing down for the rest of the scenario.
2) I kept a close eye (thanks to Initiative Cards) to the HP of the new players going into the second encounter. The high level player, as a vet, I left to his own devices... and the damage dice worked against him. Since I roll ALL my dice in front in view of the players, I can't fudge them; they are what they are. I've since learned to use different colored dice, sometimes more than are required for the damage, and saying "only the red ones count...sorry about that." The scare it puts into players when a handful of dice hit the table and the total looks like a zip-code is sometimes useful to remind that caution before action can be a good thing.
3) Perhaps "goaded" was too strong... convinced, charmed; any of those words would have worked. I DID advise against it, but one of those "rules lawyer" type players through out the "technically, we have to, since we are a 6 player table" argument. I warned them repeatedly they didn't have to play up, but allowed it to be the choice of the party.
4) Looking back over the reporting sheet, I was wrong. The high level character was level 5, the next [b]two were level 3[/b. They averaged as 2.5 (rounded down to a 2), then add +1 for a full table. Firmly at 3, with the table going either way.
5) They could have run away... and did in a later encounter. Again, running away is a player choice. I can advise it, but the players have to make that decision.
And finally... No newbies were hurt in the running of this scenario.
All in all, the veteran learned a valuable lesson, and all the others had a great time. My players will tell you, I am not a push-over, especially as the Tier range gets higher. If the scenario leaves stating positions for the NPCs open, I will use it to the NPCs advantage (depending on if they are aware of the PCs); if there is difficult terrain, I will use it too; If the creature has flight and the PCs don't, attacks from above (unless the Tactics list otherwise). I am NOT a "softball" GM... ask ANY of them about their trip on King Xeroes!
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I've seen several good GMs give the option that after an encounter, if you decide the scenario is too hard, you can decide to play down instead. I've personally never had to use that option, but it was nice to have, especially when I was new to PFS.
When I GM, I give extremely adequate warnings if I think a group should play down. With some groups I might advise that it's a good idea to play up. It depends on the scenario and it depends on the group, but I'm going to try to advise everyone on what I think they'll have the best time playing.
If my home group plays up and made a mistake, they're stuck. Too bad! :) For some reason, I'm softer on strangers and might let them play down if they cry 'uncle', getting lesser rewards of course, but not in the middle of an encounter.