It's the cause of way too many fights, and I'm tired of it. I'm considering canning the whole system and police Paladins via a code of conduct. I've heard some people talking about how they do this in their games, and I'd like to follow suit. What things depend on alignment in Pathfinder that I need to either tweak or can?
Consider a "mechanic" for the effects of "evil" spells and "evil" behaviour. Sorta like an invisible karma meter so you can sometimes show the players the consequences of their actions (for both good and bad).
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Codes of Conduct are written, per class, by the DM. Spells that base their effects on alignment only affect creatures with alignment subtypes, like Outsiders and Clerics. Done.
Rules-wise all you need to do is remove the alignment related spells and creatures that relate to it. This means that most outer-planar outsiders are out. The focus would more appropriately be on other monsters. Aberrations?
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It's the cause of way too many fights, and I'm tired of it. I'm considering canning the whole system and police Paladins via a code of conduct. I've heard some people talking about how they do this in their games, and I'd like to follow suit. What things depend on alignment in Pathfinder that I need to either tweak or can?
Do without alignment for all native of the material world and keep the alignment components for planar denizens only. If you want, include certain undead as "planar denizens" with evil signature. It will make some spells/abilities/items more situational, that's all.
In that case, Good, Evil, Law and Chaos can simply be different energy signatures and be freed of the moral definition of good and evil. No more energy/moral concepts dichotomy.
Personally, I think alignment can be a beautiful tool as long as you can find a consensus within your group (because lets face it, alignment as RaW does create too many fights). For me, it resulted in this.
Just lose the paladin already if you go with this.
Just lose the paladin already if you go with this.
But I love the paladin.
It's the cause of way too many fights, and I'm tired of it. I'm considering canning the whole system and police Paladins via a code of conduct. I've heard some people talking about how they do this in their games, and I'd like to follow suit. What things depend on alignment in Pathfinder that I need to either tweak or can?
Most align related problems that I have observed are due to a misunderstanding of the difference between ethics (law vs chaos) and morality (good vs evil). If you can't project a persona during RP, then its generally a reflection of you and some vague notions about the character.
As an aside, I REQUIRED that characters EARN PALADIN. I allowed only one player to start one without doing so. I also only had TWO players earn it, out of a few dozen tries. Paladin abilities were added to the character class and the character recieved about 25% less xp for the xtra abilites. The abilities varied between characters. Read THE DEED OF PAKSENARRION if you want a demonstration.
For Paladins, I require about 12 rules. They range from behavior to some pentient symbol. Runequest has some great geases, somewhat like that. For instance, if you are a horse nomad, you may not sleep under a roof. That means you can sleep in a tent, a yurt, or even a stable, but never an inn. You might not be able to eat meat on certian days or ever, or have to perform a quest in the name of faith once per year.
I also adjust the paladin's mount. It should be a partner for the user. Shapeshifted outsiders make great mounts. The horse in PAKSENARRION was great.
I replaced alignment with a system of patron deities - so your detect "evil" will register anyone that is an enemy of your patron.
If your patron is, say, a sun god, then all undead will register as evil, as will anyone following a god of undeath.
If your patron is the god of undeath, then anything living will register as evil - this may include you, so be careful where you drop that holy word spell...
If you don't have a patron, everyone registers as neutral to you (and you register as neutral to, well, most people at least.)
Likewise, detect "good" really just detects people whose patron is allied with yours.
Poof, no more alignment - but without having to nuke all the alignment-based abilities, classes, etc.
As an aside, I REQUIRED that characters EARN PALADIN.
Look for a Prestige Class version of the Paladin.
Look for a Prestige Class version of the Paladin.As an aside, I REQUIRED that characters EARN PALADIN.
That prestige class is terrible.
I've been playing without alignment for over ten years and haven't had a problem with it yet.
Substituted any alignment descriptors with "antagonist" and it has worked fine.
I know the Following Spells from the core book are affected by removing alignment, most are a really easy fix. Like changing the trigger of the effect, or removing the ideal of celestial or infernal from descriptors. But anyhow here is a complete list of the spells that would need touch ups.
Undetectable Alignment:
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law:
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law:
Atonement: M
Forbiddance:
Protection form Chaos/Evil
Align Weapon
Antipathy
Baleful Polymorph
Binding
Bless Weapon
Detect Undead
Forbiddance
Hallow
Helping Hand
Magic jar
Magic Mouth
Miracle
Misdirection
Phase Door
Planar Ally, Lesser
Programmed Image
Speak with Dead
Spiritual Weapon
Summon Monster I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX
Summon Nature’s Ally I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX
Symbol of Death
Sympathy
Unhallow
I'm actually attempting to do this my self. I'm looking at all of the spells, how they work and why they require alignments. Which is why I had a list.
Ah, screw it. I clarified Law and Chaos, which is what starts all the crap. That should be good enough.
If you dislike alignment strongly enough and just don't want to do the work to rewrite all the magic, someone has done the heavy lifting and posted it.
Good and Evil can still be a problem in the grand scheme of things. A villain can do good deeds leading up to a massively evil payoff and die before it ever becomes a problem for society. Are they evil? They meant to do evil and just never got around to it, and were a net benefit to the universe because of it. Contrast with the well-intentioned villain you can sympathize for, but is going to bring about the apocalypse out of ignorance if their "good deeds" reach climax.
The "omicon" series of fan-made PDFs (forget what exactly they were called, written by a chap named Frank K. and others) is a decent read for quite a few problems. The mechanics are crazy-go-nuts stuff I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot-pole, but their essays are both amusing and very thought-provoking. They address quite a few problems with any variety of alignment assumptions. Even if the mechanics are unusable by casual gamers, everyone should read them if only to challenge their assumptions.
Edit: cleaning up wording
Iv'e considered separating mortals from the Outsiders in this case.
Mortals are basically Neutral. Unless they have an aura, alignment is meaningless to them. They might act good or evil, but are not GOOD, or EVIL (Note caps)
Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos. are primal qualities of the planes.
So Devils are EVIL. they are made of essence of EVIL, from the plane of EVIL. Detect (ALIGHNMENT), is now detect (Outsider).
Your Big Bad, Baby killing, dog kicking, antagonist may be a really bad guy. But unless he's a bona fide demon, Not gonna ping on Detect evil.
In short, if it doesn't have a subtype, it doesn't have alignment.
Alignment spells, they are infused with a bit of their home plane, so they leave a "contamination" that detects for a while. Use those too much, and you will ping as the spell type youve been using.
Man, I feel like I've heard all this before. :)
Hmm, natural one on my perception check.