Happened at the last game. As the DM I ruled it was a line down the middle, and those who made their saves were squeezed to either side. How wide is blade barrier? Looking at past threads, some here say that it can go through the center of squares since it affects creatures, others say it needs to follow the lines of the square. Seems like Wall of Force and Wall of Stone can go anywhere, so I am not sure why this one would need to follow the lines of the grid. In the case of a hallway, that would be up against one wall which seems like a bad place for the caster to put it.
So how wide is it and where can it go?
Here's the spell:
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect wall of whirling blades up to 20 ft. long/level, or a ringed wall of whirling blades with a radius of up to 5 ft. per two levels; either form is 20 ft. high
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Reflex half or Reflex negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
[This content was created for the Pathfinder rules by Paizo Publishing LLC and is part of the Pathfinder RPG product line.]
DESCRIPTION
An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence. Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.
If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.
A blade barrier provides cover (+4 bonus to AC, +2 bonus on Reflex saves) against attacks made through it.
P.S. The bad guy's next tactic was hold person, to hold them there another round, but the party mage was able to bull rush them held guy out with a grasping hand spell.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
How wide is blade barrier?
It follows the lines on the grid.
Looking at past threads, some here say that it can go through the center of squares since it affects creatures, others say it needs to follow the lines of the square.
The only time it can go through a creature is if the creature takes up more than one square. (The center grid lines of a large creature, for example)
Seems like Wall of Force and Wall of Stone can go anywhere
Wall of Force has no width either, and it must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If you try to put it over a creature (through the center of a large creature, for example), the spell fails.
Wall of Stone gives you thickness, but cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object. It's Shapeable, which means it can't have a dimension smaller than 10 feet.
Anyway, I have no rules to back that up, so it could be wrong. There was a thread recently about line spells and going diagonally down a 5' wide corridor, but I don't remember what came of it. I'll edit if I find it. -edit- here it is but it's not that helpful. It's got some SKR action in there, though.
My two cents:
The width of a blade barrier is negligible. Probably less than a foot, anyways.
It doesn't have to follow grid lines; the idea that you can only cast it in right angle orientations and not at a 45 degree angle (say) is ridiculous.
I would probably rule that you set one grid intersection as the start and one grid intersection as the end.
Blade barrier's effect is a wall. Walls aren't restricted to being placed on grid lines. They aren't even restricted to starting at one corner of a square and ending at another corner of a square.
I agree, but if I were the GM, I'd probably want to set some kind of pragmatic limit.
My two cents:
The width of a blade barrier is negligible. Probably less than a foot, anyways.
Most high-level clerics don't even bother carrying cutlery.
Blade barrier's effect is a wall. Walls aren't restricted to being placed on grid lines. They aren't even restricted to starting at one corner of a square and ending at another corner of a square.
Citation?
All I can find is this, under Magic, Aiming a Spell then Area: "The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection."
Now, it could be argued that there is no "Area:" line in Blade Barrier, which is true, but the Magic chapter isn't laid out all that well. Spread is in italics under the bold Effect section, as is Ray, but Spread is again under bold Area.
"Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below."
Since Blade Barrier doesn't have a Target, it's reasonable to treat it as a specially defined area. Which would also qualify as "Other: A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description." Both of which put the origin in a grid intersection.
You could also argue that a perfectly diagonal wall should work, but it seems weird for a line spell and a fireball to have clunky edges but a blade barrier doesn't. (Also, then you run into people moving diagonally through the wall without entering a square the wall occupies)
I have never played that a wall of force or a wall of stone has to go along gridlines. The wall of force has to be straight, and a wall of stone can curve, but neither seem to run along grids. Seems like my ruling during the game is okay: the wall can go down the middle of a 5 ft wide corridor just fine. People who save are squeezed on either side of it.
P
I have never played that a wall of force or a wall of stone has to go along gridlines. The wall of force has to be straight, and a wall of stone can curve, but neither seem to run along grids. Seems like my ruling during the game is okay: the wall can go down the middle of a 5 ft wide corridor just fine. People who save are squeezed on either side of it.
Sounds fair. But as you note, by having the precedent of splitting up "squares" into subunits, it does open up the door to "creative" targeting of spells. E.g. "I'm squeezing in the back side of my square so the Wall of Fire doesn't injure me" or what have you.
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Blade barrier's effect is a wall. Walls aren't restricted to being placed on grid lines. They aren't even restricted to starting at one corner of a square and ending at another corner of a square.Citation?
All I can find is this, under Magic, Aiming a Spell then Area: "The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection."
Now, it could be argued that there is no "Area:" line in Blade Barrier, which is true, but the Magic chapter isn't laid out all that well. Spread is in italics under the bold Effect section, as is Ray, but Spread is again under bold Area.
"Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below."
Since Blade Barrier doesn't have a Target, it's reasonable to treat it as a specially defined area. Which would also qualify as "Other: A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description." Both of which put the origin in a grid intersection.
You could also argue that a perfectly diagonal wall should work, but it seems weird for a line spell and a fireball to have clunky edges but a blade barrier doesn't. (Also, then you run into people moving diagonally through the wall without entering a square the wall occupies)
Blade Barrier is an effect spell (not an area nor a target spell), so it appears where you want it, only an effect that is a spread needs to have an origin point otherwise you define where the effect occurs. You can certainly make it bisect a 5 foot hallway. In this case however you may have to adjudicate the extraordinary situation.
Blade Barrier is an effect spell (not an area nor a target spell), so it appears where you want it, only an effect that is a spread needs to have an origin point otherwise you define where the effect occurs.
Not just spreads, but any spell that affects an area.
I still don't think it's that cut and dry.
"Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection." That's from the Spread subsection of the Effect section.
Fog Cloud: Effect fog spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high
Does it affect an area? Is it a spread? Does it require a grid intersection origin point? If you put it in the center of a square, does it fill a half a square on each end? What if it's cloudkill instead of fog cloud, and a creature occupies a square that's half cloudy?
Find me a rule that says walls have to be originated and terminated at a grid intersection and you might have something.
As long as you decide walls don't affect an area, then that won't happen.
Blade barrier isn't a spread. Thus, the rules on spreads don't have any relevance to it.
Sure they do. If you say Blade Barrier doesn't affect an area because it says Effect, then the same applies to Fog Cloud, which doesn't affect an area because it also says Effect. But since there's text clearly stating that fogs and clouds are spreads, and spreads affect an area, then you can't use the Effect line to prove that a spell doesn't affect an area. And if it affects an area, the origin must be a grid intersection.
"Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection."
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Just because a spell covers an area does not make it an "Area" spell. When casting any "effect: spell the only thing you follow is the "effect" section of aiming a spell from the magic chapter.
You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.
Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature at which you're aiming.
If a ray spell has a duration, it's the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can't see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.
Fog cloud is an effect that spreads thus you need to designate a point of origin. Blade barrier is not a spread so you designate where you want the spell to appear within range.
--Vrock to Mud
I can see how DMs would want to have a rule where walls would follow grid lines, because then you don't have to deal with things like people being squeezed into half a square when they save, but there doesn't seem to be anything in the rules to support it.
I'd say that most of the time (i.e. when you're in combat mode where you use a battle mat and everything), it's good to have rules like this. But otherwise, I'd say it's not good structuring everything too much too often.
Seems pretty simple to me. Anyone moving into the area of the blades (that is, the squares it occupies) must now squeeze in order to avoid getting cut apart.
We have a ping pong table with a mega mat and we have many many figs and terrain pieces and dwarven forge layouts and dungeon furniture. Our combats have fun tactics. We even have walls we use for the various wall spells, including our wall of force, which is transparent. For this reason, knowing where to put the blade barrier spell is important.
P
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That's one of the great parts of being a GM, you get to make judgement calls! My best advice is make a call at the table to keep things moving, then when you have time to look it up, or query the boards you can tweak your rulings. As long as you keep it consistent at the table once you make a call things will be smooth sailing.
One thing I've learned playing with friends, in PFS and other organized play, and running as a GM is that no two tables will play the same way even with the exact same rules.
--Vrock Solid
For any wall spells, we use these walls from War Torn Worlds.
They're really useful for all sorts of thing, including stairs (if you lay them flat), impromptu rooms, etc.
Reading Spell Descriptions (Part Five).
Wall Spells: Spells such as wall of fire are effect spells that create barriers. Often, the effect entry for such a spell does not mention how thick the barrier is (for example, blade barrier, wall of fire, and wall of force). In these cases, the wall is basically two-dimensional, with only a negligible thickness. If such a spell deals damage (or has some other effect), the spell deals damage to anything that passes through it or otherwise breaks the plane of the barrier. In the case of a wall of force, nothing can break the plane (save for a few magical effects specified in the spell description).
That clears up that for me.
He also says this(Although still under Area):
The point of origin for any area spell always must be an intersection of squares on the grid you use to regulate combat. This rule greatly simplifies the task of deciding exactly where the area extends.
I can see were this is a rule of thumb, but a good one to follow.
Probably the rule I will follow most of the time.
Terrain makes some things more effective than they would otherwise be. Indiana Jones escape from the boulder would have been a lot less dramatic had he only had to take a 5' step to the left to avoid the whole damn thing.
You had a hallway, 5' wide. Even a line spell (lines having no height, or width, only length) still fills the 5' square (see spell templates CRB P. 215). Sure this makes the hallway a Cuisinart of death for the enemies, but right spell, right place, right time.
Enemies are hosed.