Unfortunately no the ad hominem didn't work. I'm very proud to call myself a griefer, ganker, PvPer and Goon. I don't share prey.
Your ego... it is... delicious...
Goblin Squad Member
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..."I'm Lord Derpington of Herpington Castle" means nothing when i come along and brain you with my axe. It is through PvP that you can forumlate RP status and 'titles' otherwise it is all meaningless drivel.
How much time do you spend RPing when you're online?
I dont play MMORPGs but the PKillers I used to know didnt play the game in character at all. The bolded part seemed really odd to me.
Correction, he's still Lord Derpington-in-exile unless the game has a built in titles mechanic concerning possession of fortifications and fiefdoms :P (Granted it very well may not have such a mechanic.)
Either way, he can still introduce himself as Lord Derpington-in-exile, and Nyx can still call it meaningless drivel. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are two separate, distinct kind of PvPers Steve. There are the roleplayers (such as myself) who use PvP as a tool within a story. Combat is the most common kind of conflict in stories and people don't always agree with eachother (or are in opposing forces or any number of other things.) The way this conflict is resolved is by kicking eachother's asses.
I'm pleasantly surprised. When I played MUDs people used to say this, but it never actually translated to the game. You'd be wandering around and three other pkillers* would appear from nowhere and lay into you - if you didnt have fellow guild members online you were pretty much screwed.
My prejudice is always that the PKiller crowd are opposed to isolationism purely because they enjoy beating up poor players. Maybe the world has moved on from the nineties..
* I generally played in restricted MUDs where peacefuls and pkillers didnt interact substantially
Goblinworks Founder
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There will be limits on what gear you can equip and use (and probably what aspects of the gear you can use you can access as well).RyanD
This is just raising more questions.
1. Is that limited by your skill? can't equip a sword unless you are trained in how to use a sword.2. Is it limited by Archtype? You can't wear full plate mail because you chose the mage archtype.
b) If yes, is it a hard limitation or soft?
Hard = Cannot wear/equip/look sideways at it
Soft = Can equip but will suffer penalty
3. Is it going to by something different entirely?
Like a Hybrid monster of themepark level limit, archtype or class and skill requirement
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Goblinworks Founder
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Question #19 was the biggest surprise for me. It sounds like pretty much no one here likes end-game raids. This tells me that we probably don't have a lot of hardcore MMORPG players participating in this forum.
I've been on both sides.
I spent the better part of 5 years in a hardcore raid guild in two themepark MMO's. While I enjoyed it, I believe that there is a better way to do things.I am a big fan of risk = reward in any form, whether it be business or pleasure. For this reason I have always felt end game raiding to be a hollow experience because the only risk you have is insanity from doing the same raid instance 4 nights a week.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, one would hope that the target audience for an RPG, whether massively-multiplayer or not, was roleplayers and not PvPers.
What you mean by "roleplayers" is not the same as what is meant by the term "roleplaying" in the MMORPG initialism.
I almost instinctively imagined you looking down your nose at the monitor as I read the word.
What you mean by "roleplayers" is not the same as what is meant by the term "roleplaying" in the MMORPG initialism.
I almost instinctively imagined you looking down your nose at the monitor as I read the word.
Oh, I know it's not. That's my biggest gripe with pretty much every MMO I've played in since the original NWN-on-AOL MMORPG--to most people, an RPG is a game where you develop your character via increases in level and equipment. I find it unfortunate that that's pretty much the definition given of a CRPG or MMORPG in most video game magazines.
In the sense that I mean "roleplayer"--and the one most people in RP communities in various MMOs would use--it's someone who is immersing him or herself in the role of their character. Pretty much the table-top convention of the term.
Don't worry though, there was no looking-down-my-nose going on behind the screen. Even if I do wear glasses, just for that withering "Quiet in the library!" librarian look.
Oh, I know it's not. That's my biggest gripe with pretty much every MMO I've played in since the original NWN-on-AOL MMORPG--to most people, an RPG is a game where you develop your character via increases in level and equipment. I find it unfortunate that that's pretty much the definition given of a CRPG or MMORPG in most video game magazines.In the sense that I mean "roleplayer"--and the one most people in RP communities in various MMOs would use--it's someone who is immersing him or herself in the role of their character. Pretty much the table-top convention of the term.
Don't worry though, there was no looking-down-my-nose going on behind the screen. Even if I do wear glasses, just for that withering "Quiet in the library!" librarian look.
I think the problem with the MMO RP communities from a veteran is that they tend to be stuck up carebears who shirk any idea of PvP. They hide away on PvE servers to preserve their little delusions to the point of complete denial.
I have bested some 'grand master paladin' in a duel who then bled all over OOC about how he really won in character but not in pvp. I don't see RP and PvP separate, I see both as important as each other, they are integral parts of conveying a story within the MMO medium.
I think the problem with the MMO RP communities from a veteran is that they tend to be stuck up carebears who shirk any idea of PvP. They hide away on PvE servers to preserve their little delusions to the point of complete denial.
I have bested some 'grand master paladin' in a duel who then bled all over OOC about how he really won in character but not in pvp. I don't see RP and PvP separate, I see both as important as each other, they are integral parts of conveying a story within the MMO medium.
That's a very RP-PvP mindset. Unfortunately, in practice, RP-PvP servers result in RPers mixing with PvPers with little to no interest in RP. So you end up with situations where the PvPers disrupt RP events or otherwise disrupt existing roleplaying scenes by attacking the participants. When your options are "try to roleplay and be interrupted because someone thought it'd be funny" or "go to an RP-PvE server, where you can't have your events and scenes disrupted," most RPers decided to reroll or transfer to RP-PvE servers like MG and WrA. And when those RPers go, it makes it much less RP-friendly on the RP-PvP servers, which causes more RPers to leave for greener RP pastures in a vicious cycle til you end up getting whole guilds of people transferring from an RP-PvP server to an RP-PvE server because there's no one to RP with....
It doesn't help that some people burn out on the RP aspect of the game and start deliberately griefing or PvPing people they may have respected enough not to before they got bored.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the problem with the MMO RP communities from a veteran is that they tend to be stuck up carebears who shirk any idea of PvP.
The majority of successful RP communities I have been a part of have existed in open PvP or partial open PvP games. They did however employ a a rules of engagement between participating guilds and players to which a player could avoid combat if he really wanted to.
RP communities thrive under such rules. One which allows a player to kill as and where he pleases is one in which somebody's gamestyle is hindering everyone else's.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh, I know it's not. That's my biggest gripe with pretty much every MMO I've played in since the original NWN-on-AOL MMORPG--to most people, an RPG is a game where you develop your character via increases in level and equipment. I find it unfortunate that that's pretty much the definition given of a CRPG or MMORPG in most video game magazines.
In the sense that I mean "roleplayer"--and the one most people in RP communities in various MMOs would use--it's someone who is immersing him or herself in the role of their character. Pretty much the table-top convention of the term.
Right, but you said "One would hope the target audience for an RPG was roleplayers," which, actually, one probably wouldn't hope for if one were making a video game RPG with an eye towards being successful. The act-out-my-character crowd is dwarfed by the just-wants-to-play-an-RPG crowd.
I think the problem with the MMO RP communities from a veteran is that they tend to be stuck up carebears who shirk any idea of PvP. They hide away on PvE servers to preserve their little delusions to the point of complete denial.
I have bested some 'grand master paladin' in a duel who then bled all over OOC about how he really won in character but not in pvp. I don't see RP and PvP separate, I see both as important as each other, they are integral parts of conveying a story within the MMO medium.
That's a very RP-PvP mindset. Unfortunately, in practice, RP-PvP servers result in RPers mixing with PvPers with little to no interest in RP. So you end up with situations where the PvPers disrupt RP events or otherwise disrupt existing roleplaying scenes by attacking the participants. When your options are "try to roleplay and be interrupted because someone thought it'd be funny" or "go to an RP-PvE server, where you can't have your events and scenes disrupted," most RPers decided to reroll or transfer to RP-PvE servers like MG and WrA. And when those RPers go, it makes it much less RP-friendly on the RP-PvP servers, which causes more RPers to leave for greener RP pastures in a vicious cycle til you end up getting whole guilds of people transferring from an RP-PvP server to an RP-PvE server because there's no one to RP with....
It doesn't help that some people burn out on the RP aspect of the game and start deliberately griefing or PvPing people they may have respected enough not to before they got bored.
I take this is from your experience on World of Warcraft?
In every sandbox, Open PvP and generally PvP oriented game i have played i have found an RP server that thrived and loved the freedom that PvP gives. It is a means to prove your 'skills' and 'awesomeness' that (you)r character espouses. If you are not willing to "Put your money where your mouth is" and being taken down a peg then i suggest you go play Freerealms or Runescape.
Right, but you said "One would hope the target audience for an RPG was roleplayers," which, actually, one probably wouldn't hope for if one were making a video game RPG with an eye towards being successful. The act-out-my-character crowd is dwarfed by the just-wants-to-play-an-RPG crowd.
Sadly true. Call it a pipe-dream.
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I take this is from your experience on World of Warcraft?
In every sandbox, Open PvP and generally PvP oriented game i have played i have found an RP server that thrived and loved the freedom that PvP gives. It is a means to prove your 'skills' and 'awesomeness' that (you)r character espouses. If you are not willing to "Put your money where your mouth is" and being taken down a peg then i suggest you go play Freerealms or Runescape.
That's the story of the death of all of the RP-PvP servers in WoW, combined with the reasons my guild is going to WrA.
As for my RP experiences in other MMOs, I've played Neverwinter Nights (the AOL MMO), The Realm, Ultima Online, EverQuest, Planetside, World of Warcraft, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer: Age of Reckoning and Rift. I've also played on the NWN2 persistent world of ALFA and its sister-project Exodus: Shadows of Amn, and the NWN1 persistent world of NWN: Resurrection (a remake of the old AOL NWN by members of that community).
In the vast majority of those MMOs, I never even found an RP community. In NWN-on-AOL, PvP was severely restricted (melee PvP wasn't an option, and thus -everyone- was a multi-classed or dual-classed mage and/or cleric). The RP community was pretty solid, but I never really saw anything much RP-wise come out of the "open PvP" environment that wasn't consensual PvP--for example, a storyline culminated in a huge battle between my guild and its allies and a guild of drow and its allies out in one of the open PvP areas that involved over a hundred people. But that was preplanned, consensual PvP.
Ultima Online was a gankfest pre-Felucca/Trammel. I was a member of The Grey Company, an elven RP guild from NWN-on-AOL, and we had a player-created town (that still exists today), a decent RP community and nothing of real RP worth that wasn't consensual--I was one of two guildmates who briefly used the guildstone of an allied guild so that we could participate in an RP-PvP scenario.
I don't recall ever finding RP in The Realm or EQ. Planetside was all PvP, no RP (and that was fine...for a month, after which I got bored of the PvP). DDO had (has) a decent RP community on a couple of servers, without open PvP of any sort (Turbine argued that PvP really went against the spirit of D&D, though they eventually allowed "arena PvP" in the form of tavern basements). LotRO never allowed PvP outside of the Ettinmoors, and only between Monster races and the Free People races like the Men, Elves and Hobbits--still had/has a decent RP community. I found that the RP community was stronger on the PvE-RP server I tried on Rift than the PvP-RP server I mainly played on. I played WAR with friends from my WoW RP-PvP server on a WAR RP-PvP server. I never really found any RP going on outside of that group of guildmates/friends, either.
World of Warcraft's strongest RP communities by far are on RP-PvE servers.
Now, on NWN1/2 persistent worlds that allowed PvP, it was rarely actually utilized, in my experience--or it was an attack out of the blue without any real RP behind it that anyone except perhaps the PKer in question would recognize; not even a "Give me all of your money and you get to walk away from here alive!" from a bandit.
I'm glad you find non-consensual PvP entertaining, but that's not the only way to RP, and in my experiences generally detracts from the RP community on anything more niche than an NWN2 PW.
As for your 'grand master paladin' duel...that's just silly. If he lost in a duel that was IC, why would he say he really won the duel? Assuming that he didn't mean he won it on principle, or something other than the literal, obvious meaning.
If you want a sandbox, that means other people in the sandbox can kick over your castle, steal all your sand, and use it to make their sandcastle even bigger and mightier, and also pay some kids to ensure you can't kick their sandcastle over in turn.
Bragging rights to having the biggest sandcastle go to those that've earned it in game, not by writing fanfiction of themselves. Until Lord Derpington can back his claims up, he's little more then another insane unwashed peasant.
Also I forget if I already said it but laffo forever at someone quoting Moonguard as an example of awesomely large RP servers. Moonguard's population is like 90% blood elves and humans, and most that roleplaying is going on in Goldshire, if you catch my drift.
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Goblinworks Founder
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In the vast majority of those MMOs, I never even found an RP community.
It's a shame you didn't try Age of Conan. I wasn't a PvPer when I first played Age of Conan, but I didn't like the fact that the PvE servers would let you toggle PvP on/off so I rolled on a RP-PvP server.
Not only did it introduced me to a really good RP community on two servers (Hyperborea & Cimmeria) but it also introduced me to the first real roleplay community I have seen in an MMO. I really did love the game in the early days because of the rp-pvp community.
Age of Conan in the first six-months was some of the best times I have spent in an MMO which says a lot considering I hate what the game has become.
There were gank groups that would roam around in character as bandits or thugs in the noble district.
There were serial killers in the sewers of Tortage who would hunt each other relentlessly.
There was even a guild of Picts that held the beaches of whitesand hostage.
These guys were usually of a low level, the level 80's would all be dueling in Kesh or trying to siege their castles without crashing (it was terribly bugged). All the while there was also various dedicated hard core role playing guilds, some were focused on the Tavern RP and work their characters and others into really intriguing stories.
There was definitely a lot of good gaming for all in those first six months. Then they introduced PvP levels, PvP gear, and started to re-itemize the game to make gear more powerful. This meant people stopped PvPing for fun and just killed people relentlessly to grind their slow leveling process so they could afford the gear. Not long after that they introduced a conquest type map in the frontiers that allowed players to get PvP experience by doing PvE content. Once this happened, the organized guilds locked down these areas and farmed themselves to maximum PvP rank which ended up with only two or three guilds owning the servers.
While many people, including myself consider Age of Conan a failure, about 2 months after launch they had sorted out a lot of the major bugs. Between then and the itemization was a small window of around 3 or 4 months where it was probably one of the best games I've ever played.
If you want a sandbox, that means other people in the sandbox can kick over your castle, steal all your sand, and use it to make their sandcastle even bigger and mightier, and also pay some kids to ensure you can't kick their sandcastle over in turn.
Bragging rights to having the biggest sandcastle go to those that've earned it in game, not by writing fanfiction of themselves. Until Lord Derpington can back his claims up, he's little more then another insane unwashed peasant.
Also I forget if I already said it but laffo forever at someone quoting Moonguard as an example of awesomely large RP servers. Moonguard's population is like 90% blood elves and humans, and most that roleplaying is going on in Goldshire, if you catch my drift.
I never said I wanted a sandbox, actually. I'm much more interested in the "theme park elements" of this "hybrid sandbox/theme park MMO." The fact of the matter is, Lord Derpington can call himself Lord Derpington whether he has any claim to it within game mechanics or not, and most RPers will still play along. He can also claim that Herpington castle is over in Varisia, where no one but he can lay claim to it.
I'm also aware of the overwhelming preponderance of blood elves in Horde RP communities. I don't consider this a bad thing, since I hate the rest of the Horde races anyway--and play a blood elf myself. I'm also aware of MG's reputation, but I really doubt that the percentage of RP runs as high as 90% ERP. I've personally played on MG as well, and there's a lot more going on in Silvermoon and Eversong than simply people cybering--despite their "Cybermoon" and "Cybersong" nicknames.
It's a shame you didn't try Age of Conan. I wasn't a PvPer when I first played Age of Conan, but I didn't like the fact that the PvE servers would let you toggle PvP on/off so I rolled on a RP-PvP server.
Not only did it introduced me to a really good RP community on two servers (Hyperborea & Cimmeria) but it also introduced me to the first real roleplay community I have seen in an MMO. I really did love the game in the early days because of the rp-pvp community.
Unfortunately, AoC is just the wrong IP for me to be interested in--no elves, and I rarely play any characters but elves in fantasy games.
In the beginning of WoW's RP-PvP server lifespans, though, back in 2005, there was a great deal of RP. There was still a great deal of RP Horde-side in Burning Crusade on my home server. I simply found it rare that PvP actions by RPers were anything other than consensual, when they were RPed about at all. (Not to say that I--and most other RPers on those RP-PvP servers--didn't gank someone from the opposing faction fairly regularly. I just don't attribute any RP value to it.)
I mean if you're a carebear then that's fine. I'm one. I played in Cenarion Circle - an RP server! Not even a PVP-RP one! I'm not very good at PVP!
But I mean, if I had to call out one of the most annoying about the RP server? It was people who made elaborate fanfiction identities about being kings or lords are amazing people in general and fantastic warriors and penultimate archons of magical might, who then couldn't back up any of it in game. God, the number of complaints about how "unfair" it was to beat someone in a duel and expect them to hold by it.
At the end of the day you are still playing a game, not a free writing exercise. And regardless of what your Flag RSP says, if it isn't backed up in the mechanics, it may as well not exist.
Of course the desire to write fanfiction over making use of the actual game was a very common problem on RP servers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But I mean, if I had to call out one of the most annoying about the RP server? It was people who made elaborate fanfiction identities about being kings or lords are amazing people in general and fantastic warriors and penultimate archons of magical might, who then couldn't back up any of it in game.
Its amusing that a great deal of people on these boards reference World of Warcraft in regards to RP and PvP; both of which were awful in World of Warcraft.
The quality of roleplay in WoW was terrible. Pockets existed which were very good, but the game was not remotely designed for these features and the majority of the playerbase would sooner hinder a roleplay experience than have a clue how to run one. From my time on Earthen Ring and Argent Dawn, I would give a ratio of quality roleplayer to idiot at around 1:50. The reprieve however, was that those idiots were always generally very nice people to play with.
Such cases of giving yourself a power title exists as a form of power playing and generally occurs frequently in poor roleplay communities. Good roleplay communities such as those found in Ultima Online and NwN PWs (Best 2 examples that spring to mind) this is not possible. And yes, both these games allowed PvP in accommodation for roleplay, but under certain guidelines to guarantee both keeping things real and enhancing both parties enjoyment.
Ultima Online did this through roleplay guilds creating roleplay societies in which many guilds would come together under one ROE (rules of engagement) and would coexist optimally. CoY and ERPA were too great examples.
Neverwinter Nights PWs function similarly, but instead had their own interpretations of ROE as server rules.
If these examples show us anything it is that, save for server based rules which are too problematic to enforce, roleplay has always best existed under a set of rules often enforced by the players themselves.
As a note, the link between carebear and RPer has never been more prevalent than it has in the age of the self glorified WoW PvPer. Traditional MMORPG roleplayers are the ones who in many cases, have existed in perma death, full loot/open pvp environments; be it in a MUD, PW or in an older MMORPG or player made server to accommodate such rules.
But yes to go back to my original point; World Of Warcraft is a poor example of these things, but an excellent example of a linear PvE MMORPG. Leave your WoW PvP and RP badges in the locker.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Its amusing that a great deal of people on these boards reference World of Warcraft in regards to RP and PvP; both of which were awful in World of Warcraft.
PvP is fun in WoW, if you're not awful at it.
The quality of roleplay in WoW was terrible.
The quality of roleplaying is terrible pretty much everywhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PvP is fun in WoW, if you're not awful at it.
I was expressing my opinion. I was actually quite good at it, but equally it's not something I'd call an achievement. I thought it was terrible because WoW wouldn't of been the wiser had I participated or not. That to me is terrible. I had command over nothing but a title which said little over that of how much free time I had. My arena rating went up and down with my 'can I be arsed' meter.
The quality of roleplaying is terrible pretty much everywhere.
Agree with your sentiment, but not true.
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Goblinworks Founder
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Its amusing that a great deal of people on these boards reference World of Warcraft in regards to RP and PvP; both of which were awful in World of Warcraft.PvP is fun in WoW, if you're not awful at it.
The quality of roleplay in WoW was terrible.The quality of roleplaying is terrible pretty much everywhere.
That's really a matter of opinion.
What is fun for one person is a grind for others.The quality of role playing is always subjective to the opinions of those involved or not involved.
My opinion of WOW PvP is a negative one. Not because I was not good at it, but because I dislike the delivery of it. I have a similar opinion of PvP in Age of Conan, Rift and Star Wars.
I prefer the chaos of non-instanced PvP, I like being in a small group that is outnumbered but still has a chance to defend a keep while waiting for reinforcements. I like leading small assault squads against superior numbers and coordinating our attacks in ventrilo against less organized but highly superior numbers. Then being accused of hacking because we defeat them using good teamwork vs pubs.
Roleplaying is just subjective to what people enjoy. I don't tend to get involved in their petty squabbles. I do enjoy seeing other players in character and acting out their silliness as it adds to my immersion. I just prefer not to get involved and usually steer well away from the ERp crowd.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was expressing my opinion. I was actually quite good at it, but equally it's not something I'd call an achievement. I thought it was terrible because WoW wouldn't of been the wiser had I participated or not. That to me is terrible. I had command over nothing but a title which said little over that of how much free time I had. My arena rating went up and down with my 'can I be arsed' meter.
Okay.
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Right, okay. I never felt any "pressure" to complete raids - beating them was its own reward, and the material rewards were awesome. The only "pressure" lies in the understanding that if you want to beat the more challenging raids, you have to master the less challenging ones first. If you don't care about raids at all, I'm not sure where the pressure would come from.
My dislike of raiding, from experience with it in EQ, EQ2, WoW, etc. is that you get together with twenty to forty other people, die a whole bunch of times, and then somebody else gets an item (or, worse, an item that nobody can use, or that the tanks already all have, drops, and it rots because you can't even pick it up to sell it).
Since I almost always played a healer, I found it terribly stressful, with people *****ing at me constantly for not keeping their health bar at 100%, or whining at me for letting them die, or telling me how to play my class (lotta backseat healers in these games that don't want to play the class themselves...). Four to six hours of being criticized because some idiot assassin couldn't hold his aggro and got himself killed every single pull, when my *job* was to keep the tank alive, not his middlin' hit point soft-armored butt, and then, 19 times out of 20, nothing drops that I can use, and, even if it did, there are seven other healers ahead of me in the queue to get it.
I'm an achiever all the way. If I'm going to be working my butt off on a raid zone that isn't fun, but is actually stressful, for four to six hours, I'd want to at least get something for it (and not just a badge or key to the next zone or 'achievement title'). Since these endgame raids seem to be concentrated at the maximum game levels, when you are no longer gaining experience, often fail to give out as much cash loot as they require for armor repairs, potions, reagents, etc. and you can go weeks without anything dropping for your character, I've never liked them, and only gone out of a sense of obligation to my friends, who, by the end of the night, I want to personally strangle.
So, basically, raiding sucks. If it was like the Hamidon raids in City of Heroes, where everyone who attends gets a drop, *then* I'm all for it. Hami raids rocked. Show up. Do your best, and when Hami dies, everyone gets a rare drop, and can trade among themselves if they didn't get the one best for their role. Even then, I'd probably have tweaked it to be an instanced encounter, so it didn't lag the entire zone (and the number of people showing up at the last second to zap Hami and try to get a drop would be reduced).
I'd much prefer if some big raids, like dragon raids, were one per character. You do it once, you get a drop, tailored for your class (or one of a group of six potential drops on a menu, and pick the one that best fits you, or something else), and then, for that character, the dragon is dead. You never go back and farm that lizard, unless you make another character of the right level.
That, of course, punishes the people who were behind the leveling curve, and whose guildmates all killed the dragon the week before they made the necessary level, as they can never have their guildmates join them for the encounter, but have to get together with a bunch of other stragglers, or wait for the next batch of alts to level up to do that encounter... So really, there's no perfect solution. (I've been caught in the 'middle' of leveling rotations more than once, with everyone else working different hours, or raiding in another time zone, leaving me leveling up solo to find out that nobody wants to do any of the raids that I finally qualify for, and having to wait for them to focus on their next group of alts.)
Alternately, the dragon drops not merely loot, but items that can be made by crafters into loot that can be made no other way. Bring a dragon scale to this crafter, and he'll make it into a super shield. Bring it to another crafter and he'll make it into an incredible amulet. A third crafter will make it into a special formula that can be added to a blade being forged, to manufacture an amazing sword. The best of the best items in the game would not merely be dropped from the most incredible encounters in the game, but *also* require the master artisans / crafters of the realm to shape, allowing someone of any class to benefit from a 'dragon drop' by taking it to the appropriate crafter, and using the appropriate recipe, no matter what freaky weapon they prefer, or what non-standard stat array they want to focus on.
Instead of the 'best' gear either being crafted (as often happens in games where you can very precisely tailor a suit, like DAoC) or dropped from the planes, dragons, gods, etc., the *best* gear would require both an 'uber' drop *and* a master crafter.
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Goblinworks Founder
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My dislike of raiding, from experience with it in EQ, EQ2, WoW, etc. is that you get together with twenty to forty other people, die a whole bunch of times, and then somebody else gets an item (or, worse, an item that nobody can use, or that the tanks already all have, drops, and it rots because you can't even pick it up to sell it).
Since I almost always played a healer, I found it terribly stressful, with people *****ing at me constantly for not keeping their health bar at 100%, or whining at me for letting them die, or telling me how to play my class (lotta backseat healers in these games that don't want to play the class themselves...). Four to six hours of being criticized because some idiot assassin couldn't hold his aggro and got himself killed every single pull, when my *job* was to keep the tank alive, not his middlin' hit point soft-armored butt, and then, 19 times out of 20, nothing drops that I can use, and, even if it did, there are seven other healers ahead of me in the queue to get it.
I'm an achiever all the way. If I'm going to be working my butt off on a raid zone that isn't fun, but is actually stressful, for four to six hours, I'd want to at least get something for it (and not just a badge or key to the next zone or 'achievement title'). Since these endgame raids seem to be concentrated at the maximum game levels, when you are no longer gaining experience, often fail to give out as much cash loot as they require for armor repairs, potions, reagents, etc. and you can go weeks without anything dropping for your character, I've never liked them, and only gone out of a sense of obligation to...
As someone who has played all three roles of the holy trinity in end game raids I completely agree with this from all points of view. What bothers me the most is when people try to tell me that this is what MMO's are all about. It isn't even a small portion of the feast that is available. It's just cake and the cake is a lie.
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Goblin Squad Member
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the *best* gear would require both an 'uber' drop *and* a master crafter
This will likely not work in a sandbox.
See, for the economy to run you must take stuff out of the game.
In a themepark this is mainly done by making stuff obsolete but untradeable. In a sandbox this is mainly done because stuff can be lost.
In a themepark it is therefore very hard to get good stuff. Actually the endgame content revolves around the endless grind for the good stuff using the theme parks attractions.
In a sandbox it can not be very hard to get the best stuff because you can loose it fast. Grinding for months and then loosing it to that other guild that sieged your castle will make people quit in no time.
I'm an achiever all the way.
In a themepark this usually means grinding, right.
In a sandbox that usually means talking to the right people to help protecting the stuff you have.It is a big weakness of the Bartle Test that so few people actually know what Bartle really ment but instead deduct what they find common in WoW & clones which leads to achiever = grinder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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the *best* gear would require both an 'uber' drop *and* a master crafterThis will likely not work in a sandbox.
See, for the economy to run you must take stuff out of the game.
In a themepark this is mainly done by making stuff obsolete but untradeable. In a sandbox this is mainly done because stuff can be lost.
In a themepark it is therefore very hard to get good stuff. Actually the endgame content revolves around the endless grind for the good stuff using the theme parks attractions.
In a sandbox it can not be very hard to get the best stuff because you can loose it fast. Grinding for months and then loosing it to that other guild that sieged your castle will make people quit in no time.I'm an achiever all the way.In a themepark this usually means grinding, right.
In a sandbox that usually means talking to the right people to help protecting the stuff you have.It is a big weakness of the Bartle Test that so few people actually know what Bartle really ment but instead deduct what they find common in WoW & clones which leads to achiever = grinder.
Well in that particular area it can vary, In themeparks it does take a rediculous amount of time to get items true, but many of those are superimposed difficulties. Namely things like raid timers and terrible drop rate/participant ratios. IE you bring 20 people in to kill a dragon, the dragon drops one item, and then you cannot go after that particular dragon again for 48 hours. If you instead made it a 5 man, that drops 5 of something needed to craft, and eliminate the raid timer (but possibly limit people to gathering 1 of X per day, enough so that it is worth it to repeat and wind up with extras to sell to people who don't want to fight the boss, but not enough that people will mass farm it until they are overflowing, of course if they break a lot then the limiter may not even be needed.
The lowering of the limitations on the side of gaining source items, clears up the added difficulty for finding a crafter. Also if crafting focus is a valid playstyle then finding a master crafter shouldn't be difficult, and a competitive market could control prices (though it does need to be prevented from dwindling them down to no-profit or worse sold at a loss until max level).
I removed some posts. Is it that hard to be nice to one another?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In a themepark this usually means grinding, right.
It means doing whatever it takes to be "the best." So, yes.
In a sandbox that usually means talking to the right people to help protecting the stuff you have.
Nope. Pretty much still means grinding. After all, you can't protect something until you have it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nope. Pretty much still means grinding. After all, you can't protect something until you have it.
Acquiring the most desirable commodities or items in a sandbox could be as easy as being given them, robbing them or stumbling upon them. This is impossible in themeparks. You are forced to participate to the full extent in acquiring what you need; you cannot be given gear or experience. In a sandbox it's as easy as being given reins of a mighty guild or corporation, castle or epic gear or x amount of wealth.
E.g. Darkfall Online. When I came back to that game with a fresh account, I had nothing but a massive grind to look forward to. I then, through contacts, acquired a major player city, boats, vast amounts of wealth and equipment to last my newly formed guild weeks if not months. I could have run an empire via proxy.
Fundamental difference is that you are not forced by mechanics to earn the fruits of your labour. You may achieve them as best you see fit. Training your character to it's fullest can just be one of many goals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Acquiring the most desirable commodities or items in a sandbox could be as easy as being given them, robbing them or stumbling upon them. This is impossible in themeparks. You are forced to participate to the full extent in acquiring what you need; you cannot be given gear or experience.
I'm not sure where you're getting that from. When I roll up an alt in WoW, I buy blues and purples for him that will get him through the majority of the leveling process, and just toss them into the mail with some spending cash and a few large bags.
In a sandbox it's as easy as being given reins of a mighty guild or corporation, castle or epic gear or x amount of wealth.
Again, I can be handed an end-tier raiding guild with a vault full of epics, or be gifted tens of thousands of gold pieces.
What you think is unique to sandboxes is not unique to sandboxes. And what you think is unique to "theme-parks" (for instance, grinding) is not unique to "theme-parks."
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure where you're getting that from. When I roll up an alt in WoW, I buy blues and purples for him that will get him through the majority of the leveling process, and just toss them into the mail with some spending cash and a few large bags.
This is in aid of completing the set grind which you need to complete to participate in the game. In WoW, holding a wealth of gold, purple and blue items to see you through to level 85 does not offer you anything at level 1. You have no power, only items which act as a booster to your levelling speed. Somehow different to if I gave someone in Eve Online or Ultima Online millions of gold, real estate and everything else desirable within the game world. Such commodities are seen as one of many end game goals.
Again, I can be handed an end-tier raiding guild with a vault full of epics, or be gifted tens of thousands of gold pieces.
To speed up your grind and nothing else. Your still level 1. The fundamental difference here is that you cannot be given anything which truly sets you apart from your level range.
What you think is unique to sandboxes is not unique to sandboxes. And what you think is unique to "theme-parks" (for instance, grinding) is not unique to "theme-parks."
Grinding is unique to themeparks in the sense that it's the penultimate determinate in your accessibility to...well pretty much anything.
Sandboxes can contain as much or as little grinding as you want. In a lot of cases sandboxes contain far more than a themepark, but they are different beasts. As I said, you can run an empire from day 1 given the right accessibility to power from day one in a sandbox. This you cannot do in a themepark. Your entitlement to wealth and power is radically different.
To go back to the original point, the fundamental difference is how one acquires power to which we can assume is the common goal of players in both genres. As I have shown, this does not require a grind in Sandbox games; no barriers exist.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is in aid of completing the set grind which you need to complete to participate in the game. In WoW, holding a wealth of gold, purple and blue items to see you through to level 85 does not offer you anything at level 1. You have no power.
To speed up your grind and nothing else. Your still level 1.
How do you see this being different in a sandbox?
Forgive me, but this sounds a lot like "I want a game where I don't have to actually do anything to be awesome," which is a pretty poor way to approach the design of a game inhabited by thousands of players simultaneously.
The fundamental difference here is that you cannot be given anything which truly sets you apart from your level range.
No, but I sure as hell can wipe the floor with just about anyone around my level thanks to the gear advantage I'd have alone.
See: battleground twinks.
Grinding is unique to themeparks in the sense that it's the penultimate determinate in your accessibility to...well pretty much anything.
You're right, but that's not unique to themeparks.
Sandboxes can contain as much or as little grinding as you want. In a lot of cases sandboxes contain far more than a themepark, but they are different beasts. As I said, you can run an empire from day 1 given the right accessibility to power from day one in a sandbox. This you cannot do in a themepark. Your entitlement to wealth and power is radically different.
Yes, apparently in sandboxes you don't have to earn anything (assuming you win the equivalent of the friend jackpot), and that means sandboxes are awesome?
Yes, apparently in sandboxes you don't have to earn anything (assuming you win the equivalent of the friend jackpot), and that means sandboxes are awesome?Yes :D
No Coldman, Scott is correct. For every level grind in a theme park there is a resource, scouting, or skillup grind in a sandbox. For every raiding team grind there is an assault to plan or a protection scheme to run. The games are nowhere near as different as you make them out to be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No Coldman, Scott is correct. For every level grind in a theme park there is a resource, scouting, or skillup grind in a sandbox. For every raiding team grind there is an assault to plan or a protection scheme to run. The games are nowhere near as different as you make them out to be.Yes, apparently in sandboxes you don't have to earn anything (assuming you win the equivalent of the friend jackpot), and that means sandboxes are awesome?Yes :D
For the sum of my years in my last sandbox game, I did neither kill monsters or players and maintained a valid and important role. Now you tell me, does that set a sandbox apart from a current themepark or does it not?
You can't compare the grind in skill based games to the grind in themepark games. They're demonstrably different. For a start I trained numerous characters in various roles in totally different circumstances and methods than that of another player.
In themepark games, such training is a large chunk of the content and 'reward' to a player. The very action of training or levelling ones character can mean two completely different things. The reasons for having any given skill can be for completely different purposes and be done in totally different ways.
Football and Tennis are two totally different games and are enjoyed separately. They are not similar for both requiring work and a ball.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No Coldman, Scott is correct. For every level grind in a theme park there is a resource, scouting, or skillup grind in a sandbox. For every raiding team grind there is an assault to plan or a protection scheme to run. The games are nowhere near as different as you make them out to be.Yes, apparently in sandboxes you don't have to earn anything (assuming you win the equivalent of the friend jackpot), and that means sandboxes are awesome?Yes :D
I actually think the very idea that games can be, in popular discussion, broken down into "sandbox" and "theme park" without anyone so much as batting an eyelash is a harmfully simplistic notion to begin with.