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So, my group's running a game with a slightly wider range of races than normal. Of primary concern for this game is the Large monk in the party.
Here's the thing: at level 4, this monk does 2d6 with unarmed strikes. Party cleric is all too happy to lay on an Enlarge Person, bringing the monk to 3d6 per blow. What happens when the alchemist gives the monk an infused extract of Animal Aspect (gorilla)... are we seriously looking at 4d6 base unarmed damage for this character?
I'm sure there's another one or two ways to increase effective character size for weapon damage out there, too. How have other people addressed this sort of thing stacking? It's not a conventional +x bonus with a stacking or non-stacking type, and there's no official Pathfinder chart to tell where damage goes once you're 2 or more steps over medium.
Side note: Large race aside, is this merely potent, or is it overpowered? As we're ruling now, with just these buffs, at 4th level the monk flurries at +6/+6 for 4d6+6 damage. Ki flurry just blenders foes into the dirt.
Tight environments will make him a lot less effective.
But yes - damage does scale quickly when you start the monk at large size at 1st level.
It is only +6 to hit - play him against some armored foes and his hit rate will go down alot.
Also - a huge size 4th level monk will be quite easy to hit with archery, etc. Run an encounter with a lot of archers and he'll become a pincushion.
Hi there! You've got a lot of questions, and hopefully I can be of help.
There seems to be a problem in your damage calculations.
there's not a conventional +x bonus with a stacking or non-stacking type, and there's no official Pathfinder chart to tell where damage goes once you're 2 or more steps over medium.
Actually, there is. In the Pathfinder Bestiary (under Natural Attacks) you'll find damage tables for these increases.
Basically, every size increase increases your damage up one level. So if you allowed these things to stack, your monks damage would increase like this in the sizes:
1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 2d8 4d6 4d8 6d6 6d8
So your monk at Huge (with enlarge) would be doing 2d8 damage instead of 2d6, not 3d6. So you'll have to inform your GM about that. Additionally, you'll be taking -2 on your attack rolls (-1 for being large, -1 for being huge).
But with all that said, I don't think multiple size increases stack together as you're thinking they do, so bear with me while I look in the rules.
The enlarge effect would work on top of the base size (large), but other size modifying effects would not. In addition, any bonuses gained that are "size" bonuses don't stack together so you only use the highest one. So the monk would gain nothing from Enlarge Person other than a higher size category.
EDIT:
Just looked at the Animal Aspect: Gorilla, and the monk's damage would increase the next step (4d6)
Well polymorph effects do not stack.
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The enlarge effect would work on top of the base size (large), but other effects would not.
Animal aspect don't actually change your size:
You gain some of the beneficial qualities of an animal. Your base form is largely unchanged and your size is unaltered, but some of your body parts are altered. Armor or gear you are wearing adjusts to your new shape for the duration of the spell. When you cast animal aspect, choose one of the following animals to gain the associated benefits. You can only have one animal aspect or greater animal aspect spell active on you at a time.
Gorilla: Your arms become long, flexible, and strong like those of a great ape. Your unarmed damage die type increases by one step, and you gain a +4 competence bonus on combat maneuver checks when making the grapple or reposition combat maneuver.
This kind of stacking is one of the reasons why I am very wary of non standard races in Pathfinder.
Animal aspect don't actually change your size:
This kind of stacking is one of the reasons why I am very wary of non standard races in Pathfinder.
Thanks for that Diego, just caught it myself.
Stynkk, can you give me a page number for that size chart?
Page number? No idea, but it's in the Universal Monster Rules section of the bestiary under the Natural Attacks heading.
And here: Natural Attacks Table
It falls in line with all the other damage boosts for increasing size.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Starting with size large you have a pretty big advantage to start with for low levels.
It's pretty potent, but consider for a moment that it's a combined effort of three characters and two of them are expendable resources. A ranger can do something comparable with lead blades and enlarge person.
Thanks man, now where can I find those 'other damage boosts for increasing size'?
I know the PRD is a bit wonky for searching so here you go: Weapon Qualities
Its in the equipment chapter, tiny & large weapons table. You have to do a little more extrapolating here than in the bestiary where things are in a neat little row.
@_@ Now I'm just confused.
Comparing the Bestiary to the other table the numbers are wonky. Weapons have their own scaling from natural attacks... bad stynkk...
I'll have to start by apologizing to the original poster, the damage is 3d6. Table shows 2d6 ==> 3d6.
In short, I have no idea what the damage should be if you enlarge this monk and add a size boost to damage. I can't discern the pattern.
Sorry for muddying up the issue.
I don't believe size modifiers stack. So unless the bonuses are other than size modifiers, they shouldn't stack. Most polymorph spells are size modifiers and wouldn't stack with spells like Righteous Might.
There's three things at play here.
1) The monk damage progression is not what you should be looking at when the size changes. Just look at what the base damage for a monk of that level (factoring in a monk's robe if appropriate), then size that set of dice. That gives you your 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 1d10 -> 2d6 -> 2d8 -> 2d10 progression, which is unlike any other progression in the game. A 4th level monk is in the 1d8 step (which the lookup table tells us becomes 2d6 for a large monk, but hold that thought).
2) There are three places that talk about increasing damage dice for size: Weapon Damage, Improved Natural Attack, and Natural Attacks by Size. For the most part, these tables agree, but they all have slight differences. Two steps on the Weapon Damage table would be 1d8 -> 2d6 -> 3d6. Two steps on INA would be the same thing. The natural attacks table, however, would make it 1d8 -> 2d6 -> 2d8. Personally, I think the weapon damage table is the one that's most applicable, since INA is specifically "This is how this feat works", the Natural Attacks table is "This is the base damage for this type of natural weapon, but it can vary", and monk's fists should be effectively the same as wielding a weapon of the appropriate die size for this. Your GM may disagree, though.
3) How many size increases can you stack? I'm not going to go into this one right now - I'm just going to make the assumption that we're talking about going up four die steps. However, I will point out that Animal Aspect says "damage die type", which could be interpreted to say that you increase the die size without increasing the number, irrespective of any tables (i.e. a progression would be 2d6 -> 2d8 or 1d10 -> 2d10). I don't think that's what was meant, but it's possible.
So, how much does a three-step-increase (large + enlarge + aspect) monk do?
On the Weapon Damage table, starting at the base of 1d8 for a medium monk, you'd go up to 2d6, then to 3d6, and then you're off the table. From INA, you'd go to 2d6, then 3d6, then 4d6. From Natural Attacks, you'd go 1d8 -> 2d6 -> 2d8 -> 4d6. So it's pretty safe to say that you do 4d6. But the fact that we took two different paths to get there is a problem: How much damage does the monk do when he isn't aspected - 3d6 or 2d8? Or what if you find another stacking size increaser? There's no entirely clear answer, but here's my take on it:
The weapon damage table and the INA progressions match each other almost perfectly. The differences only come from the weapon table having more entry points (1d12, 2d4, 2d10) and the INA table going further in progression. The Natural Attacks table, on the other hand, uses the aforementioned 2d8 as the step between 2d6 and 4d6, instead of 3d6. And that's the only difference. In general, except for that point of discontinuity, you can get the next die size by breaking your current size in half, sizing up each half, and then combining the results. For example, 2d10 (on the weapon chart) would become 2x1d10 -> 2x2d8 -> 4d8, which matches what the weapon chart says it should be. This holds on the weapon table and the INA table, except for 2d6 ->? 3d6 ->? 4d6 and 2d8 ->? 3d8 ->? 4d8. By the splitting logic, it should go 2d6 -> 2x1d6 -> 2x1d8 -> 2d8 and 2d8 -> 2x1d8 -> 2x2d6 -> 4d6. Similarly, if you were already at 3d6, it would go 3d6 -> 3x1d6 -> 3x1d8 -> 3d8 and 3d8 -> 3x1d8 -> 3x2d6 -> 6d6.
... I think I lost track of what I was trying to prove.
In any event, in my game, I use the INA chart for everything that that the weapon tables don't handle. It's nice and easy, extends very far in each direction, and once you're up to 4d6 or 4d8, becomes trivial to extend as far as necessary. I suspect that the Natural Attacks table is the "correct" version of progression, though, although other tables explicitly disagree with it. That doesn't mean it's the applicable one, though, which is why I use weapon/INA.
Thank you for that comprehensive assessment of the situation as it stands, Bobson. The two options for damage progression mean things get a bit fuzzy in the middle there, and although right now we're sitting pretty comfy at 4d6 as an answer, I'm trying to establish precedent for when the large monk is at a base 2d8, etc.
I think we'll go with the INA chart, as you suggest.
Since we're on the topic, does anyone know of any other gimmicky ways to increase *effective* natural weapon size? Any other spells, equipment, etc? This game is just about the roughest we've played and every edge is important - not to mention funny as hell.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I don't believe strong jaw works with unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes are not natural weapons.I'm too lazy to chase down jason's original reply on this, but here is James' confirmation.
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It seem that the creators of those spells have decided to break this rule in all the way possible. And even some way that should not be possible.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
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Yes, as Diego Rossi points out animal aspect is of the polymorph sub-school and, although it calls out avoiding some of the limits involved with such spells (such as losing access to your gear), the canceling of size changing spells isn't one of them. So enlarge person and animal aspect can't be stacked in the first place.
Just out of curiousity, what race is this large monk?
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I don't believe strong jaw works with unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes are not natural weapons.I'm too lazy to chase down jason's original reply on this, but here is James' confirmation.
The feat wouldn't apply, as they are not technically natural attacks. However, spells and effects can treat a Monk's Unarmed Stike as Natural:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
EDIT: And linkified. :)
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Say I had a 20th level monk + Monk's Robe that would give me 4d6 unarmed damage base for medium, right?
Add in impact weapon special quality for 1 size category larger
Add in improved Natural Attack -> 2nd size category larger
Add in being Shapechange (as per 8th level spell) into huge creature -> 3rd and 4th categories larger
4d6->6d6->8d6->12d6->16d6?
That just seems like WAY too much.
I thought impact could only go on weapons that were not light? Unarmed strikes are light weapons right? AoMF says that it can be enchanted if its something that can apply to an unarmed attack, which is light, which means no impact yes?
man you guys reply fast...I was trying to edit sheesh lol