I have decided to play a Bard in an upcoming Pathfinderized Dark Sun game. This particular Bard will be close friends with a Rogue (played by my brother). The purpose of this character is be be part of an assassin team with the rogue. Any assistance as to what spells or feats to take will be most beneficial. Currently I'm taking the Street Performer Archtype.
My big problem is what to pick for feats as I have never played a Bard before and I don't know what is good for them. I'm also not trying to "break the game" with this character as I did when I played a psychic warrior (from Dreamscarred Press' Psionics Unleashed) and be more of a support versus damage dealer. The last to keep in mind is that I'll have to rely mostly on class abilities, feats, and spells to survive as there are not many magic items around and MWK is likely the best I'll find.
Thanks in advance.
Does arcane duelist stack with street performer? That would let you deal some nice consistent damage. More consistent than the rogue at least.
Plus, you can enchant your own weapon :-)
Does arcane duelist stack with street performer? That would let you deal some nice consistent damage. More consistent than the rogue at least.
Plus, you can enchant your own weapon :-)
Nope, they both replace bardic knowledge.
Nope, they both replace bardic knowledge.Does arcane duelist stack with street performer? That would let you deal some nice consistent damage. More consistent than the rogue at least.
Plus, you can enchant your own weapon :-)
The reason for street performer is so you can make your brother invisible, right?
And don't listen to chris :-P Tomorrow, I shall show you how to shine.
Because you are a bard. You deserve to be awesome.
Nope, they both replace bardic knowledge.Does arcane duelist stack with street performer? That would let you deal some nice consistent damage. More consistent than the rogue at least.
Plus, you can enchant your own weapon :-)
The reason for street performer is so you can make your brother invisible, right?
And don't listen to chris :-P Tomorrow, I shall show you how to shine.
Because you are a bard. You deserve to be awesome.
+1 Listen to Cheapy don't let anyone try to convince you that a Bard is a second class character. You can outshine all the rest of the group and make them love you for it, because you are buffing them at the same time.
Try out feats like Antagonize, Spell Song and Dazzling Display. Get Improved trip (and greater) and weapon finesse Whip and go to town tripping everyone and making them useless in combat.
Check out Treantmonk's guide to bards, it's really useful.
I have decided to play a Bard in an upcoming Pathfinderized Dark Sun game. This particular Bard will be close friends with a Rogue (played by my brother). The purpose of this character is be be part of an assassin team with the rogue. Any assistance as to what spells or feats to take will be most beneficial. Currently I'm taking the Street Performer Archtype.
My big problem is what to pick for feats as I have never played a Bard before and I don't know what is good for them. I'm also not trying to "break the game" with this character as I did when I played a psychic warrior (from Dreamscarred Press' Psionics Unleashed) and be more of a support versus damage dealer. The last to keep in mind is that I'll have to rely mostly on class abilities, feats, and spells to survive as there are not many magic items around and MWK is likely the best I'll find.
Thanks in advance.
Bards are awesome, but you need to pick about two things to focus on to really shine. Feats I would advise are arcane strike and maybe lingering performance. Decide on ranged or melee, that also determines a lot of feats for you.
Maybe take the whip chain and go for combat maneuvers, you will be very good with that. Or take the eldritch heritage chain, you can easily augment your character with that.Finally, do not ignore versatile performance. Especially dance is quute helpful :-)
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Alright, time for some awesome.
Prior readings, not required, but I put a lot of work into these and it's such a similar subject:
YOU HAVE THREE AND A HALF MARTIAL CHARACTERS!
Time to play a bard.
"Pfffft! A bard?! He wants me to play a froofy singing bard who is constantly getting a wedgie from the real fighters?!" you say, as you spit your coffee out in disbelief.
No, my friend. I want you to be awesome. Why? Because you're a bard. You deserve to be a awesome.
How do you be awesome? Simple my friend.
Inspire Courage. Good Hope. Haste. All in one round. At level 7.
"THAT'S UNPOSSIBLE!" you scream out, momentarily forgetting that unpossible is not a word.
Nay my friend. A rod of quicken, lesser is 35,000 gp.
"But that's almost half as much as the WBL at level 7 is!"
True. But who says you'll be paying for all of it? The primary benificiaries of it are the cavalier, ninja, and fighter. The Witch gets the speed boost and the nice boost to AC. You won't be paying for it all my friend.
You'll be splitting the cost 5 ways, for 7k each. That's less than a third of your WBL and will do more to boost the effectiveness than anything else that can be bought at that level.
You will be giving +5 to hit (+2 Inspire Courage +1 haste +2 Good Hope), +4 to damage (+2 IC, +2 GH), +30 move speed, +1 AC, +4 saves vs fear and charm, +2 saves versus everything else, and an extra attack!
That you, the ninja, the fighter, the cavalier, and whatever the cavalier is riding all get to make! That's a huge DPR boost for your party, and every single thing that got hit because of your buffs is *your* damage and *your* kill.
"But but but, I'll still be singing and prancing around the battlefield like a minstrel who found himself in middle of the battle of agincourt!" you sputter.
Not true! Bardic Performance is like Rage now. There is no requirement to use any Perform skills, unless you want to use Distraction or Countersong. And who needs Distraction when you are so g&&&%%n awesome already? Also, Perform skills help with Versatile Performance, which is an amazing ability.
You just turn it on, and the magicalness of the ability does the rest of the work.
May I suggest how you should go about inspiring your brothers in arms? Be a half-orc with Perform (Smash In Face With Great Axe). Or be extra awesome and be an archer bard. Those guys kickass, since they get so many arrows from Manyshot / Rapid Shot / Haste, and they get some sweet damage increases, and more importantly to-hit bonuses from their buffs.
Oh no! Your fighter is at 1 HP and despite all your buffs (+25% chance to hit!) missed the attack that would kill the BBEG, whose turn is next! Oh, just kidding! He didn't after you added +2d4 to his roll as an immediate action. Remember, the average of 2d4 is +5. So with your buffs and that, you are giving +10 to hit.
Which is +50% chance to hit.
Did I mention that you'd get one of the coolest spell lists ever? Summon (Mostly) Immovable Rod is a level 1 spell! Throw up a Mirror Image at level 4, and wade into combat! Your Witch would love Arcane Concordance. It's amazingly hard to buff DCs. And this does it for free! Be an archer and stick near the Witch if you can. Or rather, have him stick near *you*. And hot damn, it can Extend your buffs for free!
If that hasn't convinced you, I don't know what would.
With a side of deep-fried rogue rings.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you should be a bard.
Look at the Archaeologist, to get some rogue talents as well as your awesome spell list. And they can disable traps better than a rogue.
Still going for the nature theme? Be an Animal Speaker! This one stacks with Savage Skald too, if you're going for a barbarian type. And their ability to incite Rage into enemies is amazing. This destroys spellcasters, since they can't cast.
Want to mix swords with the best of them? Arcane Duelist!
How about a know-it-all who can disable magical traps? Archivist!
Perhaps you want to be a sneak, and navigate the treacherous underdark under a cloak of...more dark...Well then! Be a Sandman! They can disable traps, put enemies to sleep, etc. They are basically the Beguiler from 3.5 :)
Do you have a lot of casters in your party? Then be a magician! and explore the mysteries of the magical world. These guys are phenomenal support for casters, and with the spell Arcane Concordance, they're so much better!
Seriously, go bard :) You don't need a lot of Charisma if you have Versatile Performance. Just pump up the Perform skills that give what you want (Oratory and Comedy, by the way). There is a HUGE difference between 3.5 bards and PF bards, so drop all that vestigal luggage you have.
PF bardic performance does not usually require an instrument or singing or dancing or any other stupid thing like that. You just turn it on. Perhaps the initial activation can be instrument / dancing / singing based, but the magic of the ability does the rest. It's a magical effect, after all!
If you do go bard, keep Cha around 16, and give some other stats some love. They aren't casters, they are martial types. They fight with weapons, although the Magician is as close as you can get to a Caster Bard. If you do go for a Caster Bard, check out the feat Unsettling Enchantment from...Complete Mage? Complete Arcane? It gives a -2 to AC and to-hit when an enemy is the target of your enchantment spells.
Doesn't matter if they saved or not. Use that with Unwitting Ally to give debuffs to your enemies when you don't have anything else to do.
Did I mention you should do bard?
I'm just going to end this post here, and do my advice for this thread in the next post!
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First things first: Throw out you knew about the bard from 3.5. Everything. They can now cast meaningful spells at first level. Bardic Music is gone and it is now bardic performance. What does this mean? It's more like Rage. You just turn it on, and the magic sustains it.
No my friend, you are not dancing about the field playing your lute unless you are an idiot. You are lithely moving across the battlefield, putting the hurt on your foes and making everyone around you shine like the light of a thousand suns.
You'll note that the previous two posts I pasted didn't really mention the street performer. I assume the reason you want that is so that you can trade your Standard action for one single sneak attack by the rogue. I know you are going for more support than ZOMGWTF, but if that's the reason you are going Street Performer, I must attempt to make you change your mind.
Why? Because as I said, you are trading one of your precious actions for 1 sneak attack. Not a full-attack. Just one. Once your friend attacks, he's visible, so he no longer gets sneak attack. For reference, at level 20, he'll have 10d6 sneak attack. That's an extra 35 damage, which is actually pretty sweet. But at level 20, you do not want to be within 30' of whatever you're facing in most cases. Compare this to Inspire Courage.
At 17th level, you are giving +4 to hit and damage. That's only +4 damage, right? But it's also +4 to hit. AKA: +20% to-hit.
Now, what's the difference between hitting and not hitting? Well, at level 20, a lot more than 35 points of damage. And this is for everyone in your group. It's wonderful.
Oh, another issue is that the invis-performance is mind-affecting. As in, it affects the minds of your enemies. If they are mindless, you can't do it. And undead are not uncommon.
My advice? Have your brother be a Ninja and take the Hidden Blade trick, or whatever the invisibility one is. The rogue is really a weak class. The ninja brings it up to near the level of other classes. Still not great, but not bad. If your GM doesn't want ninjas? Well, call it a Shadow Assassin (not to be confused with Super Genius Game's excellent, excellent Shadow Assassin class). Or assassin. Or rake. Or even just rogue.
Oh. And Inspire Courage will essentially make you a full BAB class. And every other 3/4ths BAB class in your party will be a full BAB class. And the full BAB classes will just be more awesome.
That's not to say that a bard needs inspire courage. But you wanted awesome support, and that's, well...pretty much the best there ever is.
Also, I'm not 100% sure whether it's best to use Inspire Courage before level 7. Treantmonk argues you shouldn't use it, since A) it's only +1 or +2 to hit and B) it's a standard action. I think that the bonuses to your allies are worth it, if you have even 3 martial characters (including you), so I always used it even before level 7.
So. You have a low-magic-item setting. You're part of an assassination team. That's about all I have as information right now.
Things to look at: Fascinate. A fine ability that gives -4 to checks such as Perception. How can you use this? Fascinate your target. Have your brother sneak up behind them and use the rogue talent / feats that allow you to make a free sneak attack as a part of drawing your hidden weapon. -20% to see your friend, assuming he doesn't pump Stealth (if he does, the gap widens even more :D), is great.
So. We've covered the assassination aspect.
Time to look at the Arcane Duelist. I do think this will be best for your goals of support, and being effective yourself. Why is this? Well, they get Inspire Courage for one. You can also use Bladethirst to give an ally an enhancement bonus to their weapon. This will let you help your friends get around the lack of nice weapons.
They get an arcane bond too. This gives them one extra spell per day, and perhaps more importantly for this campaign, the ability to enchant your weapon as if you had Craft Magical Arms and Armor. Just pour gold into that thing :) One issue with the Arcane Bond is that you technically can't easily cast spells if it's not in your hand. This makes casting spells in social situations a bit awkward. Ask your GM about waiving this.
You'll also be getting a variety of fighter only feats. That's pretty awesome. Oh, and you get Arcane Strike for free. That is one solid feat.
Getting Inspire Courage also will allow you to, at 7th level, Inspire Courage and Haste in one round. If you could get a hold of a rod of quicken (lesser), then you could also throw in Good Hope for the best single-round buffing in the game. But you said magic items are rare.
Another archetype that might fit your concept is the Sandman. This guy is pretty sweet as well. Stealspell isn't too useful at higher levels unfortunately. But the other abilities are solid. Slumber Song is awesome. Fascinate, put to sleep, and Coup-de-grace. Your rogue buddy will love this. Give him a high-crit multiplier weapon for this. The Assassin's Dagger from a 3.5 splat book is 1d4 20/x3 weapon, which should do wonderfully. So he's doing 3 times normal damage, and sneak attack. Awesome.
Dramatic Subtext is nice, and negates the need for Spellsong, which I will get to later.
Master of Deception is solid. Sneak spell allows you to focus on other attributes than Cha. Why? Because it buffs the DCs. Meaning you don't have to put so many points into Cha :)
Sneak Attack and Trap Sense can mostly be written off.
I'm a huge fan of the Archaeologist, but that doesn't really fit the info you've given.
Now for some non-archetype advice.
Perform skills: If you have Versatile Performance, Dance and Oratory are amazing. They both fit the Street Performer idea wonderfully.
In general, Perform (Oratory) should be the skill you pump. Even if you don't have any class abilities other than Distraction / Countersong that use Perform, you should have it. Why? Two feats.
Spellsong and Discordant Voice.
Spellsong is a superb feat. It allows you to disguise your spellcasting as a Perform check. Now, RAW you do need to actually use your Perform check. So if you have Perform(Organs), you do not need to whip out your pocket organ to -- you know what, that's a bad example. Scratch that.
So if you have Perform(Dance), you do not, read as written, need to dance. Same thing as Versatile Performance. You do not need to actually do the thing to get the benefit of the ability. So if you have Perform(Comedy) and Versatile Performance, you do not need to tell a joke to get a bonus to Bluff or Intimidate.
However, GMs tend to be sticklers about that sort of thing. So just choose Perform (Oratory). Hey, you're just talking! You're not casting a spell. ;)
Being able to hide your spells in some way is very important because Bardic spells can never be affected by Silent Spell. They always have a Verbal Component. Even when the spell lists none.
It's a good enough feat that I'd almost recommend Skill Focus (Perform(Oratory)). And if you do have Versatile Performance, you just got +3 or +6 to three skills (Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Perform(Oratory)). Sweet!
Now Discordant Voice. Discordant Voice is wonderful. +1d6 elemental damage is usually pretty bad, since so many things at that level will resist it. But wait! This is sonic damage. The least resisted elemental type. (I hear B2 had a fair number of sonic-resistant creatures, but whatever.)
So for one feat, you're giving everyone an extra 3.5 points of damage. At level 11, when you probably get this feat, after Inspiring Courage you'll be giving something like +3 to-hit, and +6.5 to damage.
Combine that with Good Hope or Haste (hint: go haste, unless you can get both in one round), and you're giving +5 to hit, and +8.5 to damage. +25% to hit! Solid! If you do go haste, it's actually, +4 to hit, +6.5 damage, and an extra attack. Oh, and +30 move speed, +1 AC, and +1 reflex.
If you have someone who summons creatures, this is amazing. One of the best Cleric builds out there now is the Evangelist Cleric who summons, thanks to this feat. You'll be summoning 1d3 Celestial Dire Lions who will be pouncing around with +3 to hit and +6.5 to damage. And if all 5 of their attacks hit (when pouncing they'll have only a 35-40% chance to miss, due to your buffs), that's an extra 39 points of damage. And you have three such lions :). But I'm getting off-topic.
Combat Style:
You'll need to pick one of these, obviously. I love whip-trip builds. But they tend to be useless around level 11. Many creatures will be flying (immune to tripping), have too many legs to trip, won't have any legs at all, or will have such ridiculously high CMDs that you shouldn't even both. Especially as a 3/4ths BAB class.
So, what do I recommend? A longsword and buckler user will work decently. You need to figure out how to get defenses though. Arcane Duelist helps, with the ability to eventually wear medium and heavy armor without ASF. Mirror Image and Blur does wonders for defenses, but you're already going to be using the first round of combat to buff your friends up. Spending two rounds of buffing means combat might be over already by the time you can start whacking.
But in general, I'm a huge fan of bard archers. Grab a composite shortbow. Spend your feats to grab Point Blank Shot (yech), rapid shot, and eventually many shot. Throw in Deadly Aim for a lot of extra damage, since the penalty to-hit is made up by Inspire Courage and Good Hope / Haste. If you can get Arcane Strike in there, all the better!
So, the idea is that the first round you spend buffing your friends. Second round, you start making your enemies pincushions. At 9th level, Arcane Strike + Deadly Aim + Rapid Shot + Manyshot + inspire courage + haste with say...20 Dex and 12 str...is something like this:
+6 (BAB) +5 (dex) +1 (enhancement) -2 (rapid shot) -2 (deadly aim) + 3 (Inspire Courage / Haste) 1d6 +1 (str) +1 (enhancement bonus) + 2 (inspire courage) + 4 (deadly aim) + 2(arcane strike)
Compact that for... +11 1d6+10.
And you'll be getting 5 attacks around that, for a attack routine of:
+11 (1d6+20 x2) [many shot] / +11 1d6+10 [rapid shot] / +11 1d6+10 [haste] / +6 1d6+10 [iterative].
Not so bad. At level 11, that's +12 1d6+13+1d6, due to Discordant Voice, arcane strike increasing, deadly aim increasing (and the penalty too), and BAB increases. So, that's an average of 20.5 points of damage per arrow, with 5 arrows. Not so bad.
Deadly Aim shouldn't be used against the tough enemies though, since the penalty to hit hurts more than the extra damage helps.
Spells:
The X Inspiration series of spells are amazing. Immediate actions that can turn a fail check into a successful one. Awesome!
Dance of a Hundred / Thousand Cuts is great for melee bards. It gives haste to you earlier than anyone but the Summoner. The spells that allow for multiple performances are great too.
That's all I can think of right now. Have fun.
You're a bard, you deserve to be awesome.
And remember: every single extra attack you grant, and every single attack that would have missed if it were not for your buffs are YOUR attacks. They add to your DPR, not your ally's.
G+$ d*%n, this post took an hour to write.
Edit: well that was certainly longer than expected. Time to spoiler it.
Nope, they both replace bardic knowledge.Does arcane duelist stack with street performer? That would let you deal some nice consistent damage. More consistent than the rogue at least.
Plus, you can enchant your own weapon :-)
The reason for street performer is so you can make your brother invisible, right?
And don't listen to chris :-P Tomorrow, I shall show you how to shine.
Because you are a bard. You deserve to be awesome.
Him or other party members, but initially yes.
Thanks for the help! Truth be told, I like versitile performance and Arcane Duelist gives that up for bonus feats...of which most of them are only useful against casters which for this game we will either run into very few or super powerful ones that will make the bonuses nil. The idea of having my own magical weapon is why I decided to play a different class in the first place as my previous character for the campaign was a Psychic Warrior who at level 3 had a 20+ AC unarmored (only taking a standard and swift action to achieve) and at level 5 had that plus a +1 weapon that was useless in the hands of others (on top of that I was a 'blacksmith' character and was working to improve the parties equip beyond what the campaign could manage). The big thing is that Dark Sun is designed to be a low magic/low magic item game and my last character shattered that because he was able to by-pass it. So, not wanting to do that again.
Arcane Duelist wouldn't be too bad, because it's not like the bonuses are permanent and it has some cool parts to it, but what I'm gaining won't be very useful to me until much later than is likely the character will survive (Athas is a harsh world). Also, I don't like giving up versitile performance.
Sandman suffers from being fairly useless to me until much later in the game because of the likelihood we will run into many casters (Clerics have no Gods and Wizards/Sorcerers are pretty much killed on sight unless they are really powerful). Also, it gives up versitle performance....so I think I'll pass on this one too. If it wasn't for spellsteal, I'd might consider this Archtype.
Street performer doesn't look all that good to me anymore, I can accomplish the same effect with Vanish....and Vanish is useful for me as well. The fact that most of the abilities are Mind-affecting makes this less than ideal. Thanks for that.
Looks like I'll stick with a basic bard as besides the Archtypes that were suggested, none really fit the character I'm making. I had no intentions of playing a "lute playing/flashdancing/poet reading" bard but more of a "oratorator/actor/street magician" type of Bard. Think more Criss Angel or David Blain...but less douchy. Basically, I would use misdirection and palor tricks on my opponents and fiery speeches and words of encouragement on my friends.
Anyways, thanks for the advice. You've given me a lot to think about.
Here is what I've come up with so far. We're starting at 3rd level so while I'm not able to get all of the ideas in yet, that doesn't mean I won't in the future should I live that long.
Male Human Bard 3
CN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +5
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DEFENSE
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AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+3 armor, +1 shield, +3 Dex)
hp 26 (3d8+6)
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +4 (1d3+2/20/x2) and
Whip, Scorpion +4 (1d4+2/20/x2)
Special Attacks Bardic Performance (standard action) (11 rounds/da, Bardic Performance: Countersong, Bardic Performance: Distraction, Bardic Performance: Fascinate (DC 14), Bardic Performance: Inspire Competence +2, Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +1
Bard Spells Known (CL 3, +4 melee touch, +5 ranged touch):
1 (4/day) Cure Light Wounds (DC 14), Expeditious Retreat (DC 14), Timely Inspiration (DC 14), Vanish (DC 14)
0 (at will) Open/Close (DC 13), Ghost Sound (DC 13), Detect Magic, Mending, Prestidigitation (DC 13), Unwitting Ally (DC 13)
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 16
Base Atk +2; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats Bard Weapon Proficiencies, Combat Expertise +/-1, Spellsong, Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +1, Climb +0, Diplomacy +9, Escape Artist +7, Fly +1, Perception +5, Perform (Act) +9, Perform (Comedy) +9, Perform (Dance) +9, Perform (Oratory) +9, Ride +1, Sense Motive +9, Spellcraft +7, Stealth +7, Swim +0, Use Magic Device +9
Languages Common, Other Language
SQ Bardic Knowledge +1 (Ex), Versatile Oratory +9 (Ex), Well Versed (Ex)
Combat Gear Buckler, Studded Leather, Whip, Scorpion; Other Gear Backpack (empty), Bedroll, Crowbar, Flint and steel, Grappling hook, Hammer, Rations, trail (per day) (6), Rope, hempen (50 ft.), Waterskin
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Bardic Knowledge +1 (Ex) Add + 1 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bardic Performance (standard action) (11 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (DC 14) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Competence +2 (Su) +2 competence bonus for one ally on a skill check.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +1 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Combat Expertise +/-1 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Spellsong Combine spellcasting and bardic performance
Versatile Oratory +9 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Oratory skill for Diplomacy or Sense Motive checks
Well Versed (Ex) +4 save vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependent effects.
Yay Cheapy. I have been waiting for this since you posted the three and half melee post. Awesome stuff. Thanks!
Yay Cheapy. I have been waiting for this since you posted the three and half melee post. Awesome stuff. Thanks!
I do plan on writing a guide someday. Thanks for the encouragement!
JMD031, since you have a rogue, I wouldn't worry too much about versatile performance. It is an amazing ability, but even without it, bards are still one of the best skill monkeys. All those spells, yum.
Cursory reading of the build, one thing to consider is dropping weapon finesse for improved trip. Your strong is only one behind your Dex, so wep finesse isn't super important. I'd save it for later, once you can get more dex. Improved Trip will give you + 2 to the trip check, making up for the loss of 1 point to-hit. There isn't a huge rush though, and both work fine.
I'm not even sure why you need dex either. Pumping strength works well for this too :-)
Yay Cheapy. I have been waiting for this since you posted the three and half melee post. Awesome stuff. Thanks!I do plan on writing a guide someday. Thanks for the encouragement!
JMD031, since you have a rogue, I wouldn't worry too much about versatile performance. It is an amazing ability, but even without it, bards are still one of the best skill monkeys. All those spells, yum.
Cursory reading of the build, one thing to consider is dropping weapon finesse for improved trip. Your strong is only one behind your Dex, so wep finesse isn't super important. I'd save it for later, once you can get more dex. Improved Trip will give you + 2 to the trip check, making up for the loss of 1 point to-hit. There isn't a huge rush though, and both work fine.
I'm not even sure why you need dex either. Pumping strength works well for this too :-)
I just like the idea of getting two skills for the price of one. But I see your point. I'll play around with it some more.
Dex = more AC = more survivability. Most things in this campaign won't have a lot of armor (lack of metal as a building material) and those that we do come across I won't want to be close to. Also I was torn between the two and chose dex for reasons stated above. Although, if I really think about it, the more I put into being able to trip, the less likely I will be hit.
What are your thoughts on the Whip Mastery chain of feats? I was thinking of at least picking up the first two if only so I don't provoke AoOs and actually threaten squares.
Thanks again Cheapy.
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I'm not too familiar with the setting, unfortunately. Can you use Bone armor? It's an option from Ultimate Combat.
I like the first two feats of Whip Mastery. The third one I can do without, but Improved Whip Mastery opens up so many possibilities.
What level are you projected to end at? If you plan on finishing up around level 12 or lower, Whip Trip builds are fine. I might be unneedingly worried about flying / creatures with many legs at higher levels, but they do negate your main schtick. Especially since you're a 3/4th BAB class. It's still one of the better options they have.
One of the reasons I say that Versatile Performance isn't the end-all-be-all is that you have a rogue in the party. Versatile Performance can tend to obsolete the rogue's main thing, which is skills.
And yea, Stealspell does mar the awesomeness of the Sandman. One of the houserules I plan on using is that they can add half their Cha mod to their rounds spent doing it to determine the level of spells they can counter. This archetype is essentially the 3.5 Spell Thief and Beguiler rolled into one.
You could ask your GM if you could have the Sandman, but with Inspire Courage instead of Stealspell. It's a bit of having your cake and eating it too, but it does fit the concept IMO. Even if you got rid of Sneak Attack and Stealspell in place of Inspire Courage, it'd be worth it.
Combing my mind of other classes that might fit this idea of yours. Its easy to come up with a class / archetype that's good at deception, or one that's good at inspiring friends. It's mixing the two in an interesting way that's difficult :)
Cleric. Yes, I am not kidding. An evangelist cleric with Trickery might fit well too. Unfortunately, you can't prepare domain spells in non-domain slots that aren't on your list normally. Which, from what I recall, are most of the Trickery ones. But! You get the deception aspect from the domain, the inspiring bit from class abilities (and you can spontaneously convert spells into stuff like Command!), you get 9 levels of casting, and you get some decent self-buffs. You get basically no skills though :(
If your GM allows 3rd party stuff other than WotC, then this class might be up your alley. It's kind of like a bard, but they focus more on the enchantments and illusions aspect of things. In general, deception. They get some rogue talents, and talents of their own. Each gets a "schism", which is like a Bloodline. The "demagogue" schism might fit your idea of an orator / street magician pretty well. They get an ability like Satire from the Court Bard, but also is pretty good at negotiating their way out of combat. I will always maintain that WotC stuff is some of the most broken 3rd party stuff for PF :)
Inquisitor with the Preacher archetype, and...darkness domain? Trickery domain? An inquisition?
Brain dump complete, for now.
I'm not too familiar with the setting, unfortunately. Can you use Bone armor? It's an option from Ultimate Combat.
I like the first two feats of Whip Mastery. The third one I can do without, but Improved Whip Mastery opens up so many possibilities.
What level are you projected to end at? If you plan on finishing up around level 12 or lower, Whip Trip builds are fine. I might be unneedingly worried about flying / creatures with many legs at higher levels, but they do negate your main schtick. Especially since you're a 3/4th BAB class. It's still one of the better options they have.
One of the reasons I say that Versatile Performance isn't the end-all-be-all is that you have a rogue in the party. Versatile Performance can tend to obsolete the rogue's main thing, which is skills.
And yea, Stealspell does mar the awesomeness of the Sandman. One of the houserules I plan on using is that they can add half their Cha mod to their rounds spent doing it to determine the level of spells they can counter. This archetype is essentially the 3.5 Spell Thief and Beguiler rolled into one.
You could ask your GM if you could have the Sandman, but with Inspire Courage instead of Stealspell. It's a bit of having your cake and eating it too, but it does fit the concept IMO. Even if you got rid of Sneak Attack and Stealspell in place of Inspire Courage, it'd be worth it.
Combing my mind of other classes that might fit this idea of yours. Its easy to come up with a class / archetype that's good at deception, or one that's good at inspiring friends. It's mixing the two in an interesting way that's difficult :)
Cleric. Yes, I am not kidding. An evangelist cleric with Trickery might fit well too. Unfortunately, you can't prepare domain spells in non-domain slots that aren't on your list normally. Which, from what I recall, are most of the Trickery ones. But! You get the deception aspect from the domain, the inspiring bit from class abilities (and you can spontaneously convert spells into stuff like Command!), you get...
Dark Sun is like a big FU to just about every class. The entire world is one big desert because Arcane magic has drained all the life out of it, the gods are dead and what cities do exist are run by tyrants. It's pretty much a post-apocalyptic game without zombies or nuclear weapons.
I agree with the Whip Mastery feats, although with using a Scorpion Whip, I'm kind of negating the use of one of the feats.
I have no idea what we are projected to finish at. Initially we were projected to finish at level 15+ but now who knows as the game may run into "technical difficulties" i.e. GM having too much going on in his personal life. There are a few flying creatures in the game, but I'm not terribly worried about them right now as I'm certain I'll have thought of something by then.
Good point, no since in making the rogue feel any worse. I told him about your Ninja idea (asking to play it as a different name) and he almost fell off his chair laughing.
Yes, and in any other game, it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal. But in this game, we will not run into any low level casters (they're not really going to stand up to the party very well) or if we do run into one, it will likely be of the BBEG variety and such I'll probably not be able to use the ability very well anyways.
I don't think it's just losing Inspire Courage, but all of the Bardic Performaces that makes me not want to take Sandman. I have considered Arcane Duelist, just need DM approval for that.
Cleric won't work due to the aforementioned lack of gods.
Old WOTC stuff is right out too.
I considered the Inquisitor...but it just didn't feel right. I like what I've got so far with the advice you've given me, and with some minor tweaks I'll be very happy with it. Thanks for all your help.
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Cheapy, stop what you are doing and write us that bard guide.
Awesome thread. Really.
By the way, Cheapy, I was wondering if you would comment on adding a single level dip in Zen Archer. It substitutes rapid shot and manyshot with flurry at -1 (instead of -2 for rapid shot), and allows for direct access to precise shot, freeing a number of feats up, but of course for the price of an attack (or rather an arrow) at max bab.
A couple of other ideas for the OP:
Combine with ancestral arms for a good composite bow, giving another early +2 to hit (one for masterwork, one trait ), and maxed dex.
Half elf with adaptability skill focus knowledge nature, boon companion, eldritch knowledge Sylvan, giving an animal companion as early as lvl 3, as one level lower druid.
Monks are the one class I haven't ever really read thoroughly, so I can't comment 100% on the interactions between flurrying and ... well everything else. With just one level of Zen Archer, you're just getting 1 extra arrow, which is better than using rapid shot, but only until you can get manyshot. Not a bad trade off, if you start at low levels and plan on not reaching level 9 (or whenever you get Manyshot).
Getting Precise Shot for "free" is nice, but you could also take Divine Hunter paladin for that. Adding your charisma bonus (which is at least +3) to-hit against one creature could really help you out in a crutch. Plus, you could use wands of all those cool paladin spells. I wouldn't recommend it for JMD, but it's an amusing concept, and would let you start out with full BAB, which is one of the biggest problems for 3/4ths BAB martial types.
Cheapy do you mind throwing out your thoughts on the Archeologist archetype? The more I look at it the more I like, and was just wanting to hear your detailed opinion on it.
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Archaeologist is probably my favorite archetype in the game. I don't think that a bard needs Inspire Courage to be "a bard". I see them as highly versatile first, and support second. And the Archaeologist does that wonderfully. Archaeologist's Luck basically necessitates Lingering Performance, unless your GM uses the designer's recommendation to give it +1 uses per level after level 1.
IMO, there's almost no reason to play a rogue if this archetype is allowed.
The Clever Explorer ability is wonderful. It's better than the rogues ability, since it's just a flat +1/2 level to Perception, not to just Perception checks to find traps, like the rogue's.
More to post later, got a game to run.
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The ability to disarm magical traps comes a bit late, and by that point, I don't believe traps are too lethal. At least not lethal enough to be anything more than resource drains. Granted, Wail of the Banshee traps are nasty things, but they won't be around until later.
The ability that gives Rogue Talents is Rogue Talents, which means they can take Extra Rogue Talent.
They do give up Versatile Performance, so they do lose a bit of the skillmonkey aspect that vanilla bards have. However, I think Rogue Talents make up for that. Plus, they still have spells like Vanish, Summon Mostly Immovable Rod (Solid Note), Charm Person, Glibness, etc.
And, as far as support goes, they still get the Inspiration line of spells, which helps out a lot. And all the group buffs that are part of the Trifecta of Buffing.
As far as feats go, Arcane Strike and Lingering Performance would be great. People will obviously be led towards the whip line of feats, but due to needing Lingering Performance, and Arcane Strike being really useful, I'm thinking it might be a bit too feat intensive. Not sure though.