You don't feel guilty for picking on the weak monsters that aren't even a real threat to you? That's murder (or at least Animal Abuse) where I'm from :P
Not even a tiny bit. :-)
Goblin Squad Member
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Think of all the bounty hunters, assassins, mercenaries, and such that would become blocked concepts by not allowing PvP like this. If someone builds up a character to be super sneaky and deadly, with the ability to disguise themselves, and takes on an expensive contract to steal into a town/building/etc. to take someone out, they shouldn't be allowed to play the character they want (assassins have backgrounds and roleplay elements, too)?
This is the type of game I've been looking for, and haven't really found much of it without RP-strict MUDs. Living evolving world, your actions have consequences, people WILL be better, smarter, faster than you. I'll take realism for 2000gp, Alex.
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Goblin Squad Member
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.... so the carebears (I only just learned that term after reading this thread and googling it by the way, amusing terminology that) don't just slack off, play on the kiddie slopes, and accomplish the same things at the same rate as those of us out there risking our necks for the sake of a dream.
I would suggest you quickly unlearn that term then because I would describe my reaction to it similar to what James Jacobs said about it.
BUT, lets not be all derogatory towards those who have a somewhat different playstyle preference. From what I've read they will be looking for some balance, weighted a bit on the sandboxy side.Hear, hear. Since I'm pretty much the poster child, I suspect, for the "carebear" type of player in an MMO... that term tends to raise my hackles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I imagine a lot of these people are "jerks" already and the anonymity element simply makes them more inclined to revel in their "jerkdom". I understand this does not make the game anymore enjoyable though.However, PvE or PvP, these guys are going to be jerks no matter what. At least with PvP you get a chance to stomp them back.
May be different types of servers can be accessed emphasising only the necessary elements of PvP, while letting us PvPers enjoy "world PvP" on another.
Just one response and I probably will be silent on this matter.
Personally, I don't like "getting people back". I don't like revenge. I don't like pvp. I am a very non-competitive person. I love team games and team work. I love working against an environment which has a strict code of conduct.
Different people have fun playing different ways. I prefer less antagonistic online social games.
Also, there is a big difference between running into a random high level mob and running into a high level griefer. The MOB behaves according to the rules of engagement defined by the programmers and if you understand that you can try to avoid it. The griefer follows the rules of engagement made up by themselves. They may even realize what you are trying to do and just simply do everything they can to stop you. The Mob isn't malicious, it is just doing what it's code says to do. The griefer is malicious.
Note on Lineage... I played both 1 and 2. Just because there is a penalty for griefing doesn't stop it from happening. I started the game, and in the newbie area got ganked by some jerk and lost a level rather early on. I immediately lost interest in the game.
In my original post I acknowledged that there are different kinds of players and those who like PVP. I am one who doesn't. I love exploring and seeing content but if that content is restricted to some small area because I hate pvp then I will feel limited and lose interest in the game.
I am not saying there should not be pvp, just that if you want people like me to give GoblinWorks my money then you must include servers or a server that have it virtually eliminated. Go ahead and have servers where pvp isn't optional. I won't play on one where it isn't optional.
Finally, I am a big Pathfinder fan, and hope this game is successful even if it becomes the kind of game I don't want to play.
Terek
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh yes, the dreaded "I have a negative security status, I can't enter a city as the guards will kill me".
Followed by: "Oh well, I will send my second character Jamie the Bland to the nearest city to buy what I need."
That is where the reputation vs. alignment comes in; make reputation bleed onto players you interact with. For instance, Jamie the Bland is the alt of Roxie the Cat Killer, who is a maxed out character who likes to stick arrows in new players. Trading with a player is interaction and will therefore cause you to take on some of the reputation of the person who you are interacting with. The idea behind it is that you are seen associating with the player. How well liked would the merchant be who keeps selling Roxie's arrows to him so he can kill newbs with them? Since you can see the negative reputation a player has before the trade, you can decide to decline the trade. Roxie using an alt (or even a not quite so evil friend) to get your stuff would end up making that alts reputation as bad as his own...meaning many players/NPC will also decline to trade with them (if for no other reason to avoid damaging their own reputation).
Likewise, "saints" would get good deals with trades and the such because people want interactions with them.
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I do not see PvP and PvE as the same thing at all. They have different goals and a different feel. In PvE I pick the area , I pick the quests, I pick the fights I want to fight, I want to try and the things I want to do. And the foes are pretty much in line with my skill level.
PvP however is something I have no say in, it is often started by people who both relish that type of game, are good at it and are more powerful and better geared then you are. They always have the advantage as they pick the time and the place. They often stay in the same area killing any chance you have of doing what you want in the time you have to play and sometimes camping your body or res site.
I suck at PvP, I simply can not act fast enough to a skilled pvp player and even when a better level I often simply do not have a big chance as it is just not something I want to do. I simply have no wish to play when I run across kids who spend 50 hours a week learning the best ways to gank folks for Lulz and they hound me on the rare time I get to play into I waste my whole play time trying to fend them off or running from them. Not my idea of fun.
To me having done both PvP and PvE are nothing at all alike. Some people love PvP, some people like me have no wish to run into PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That might be going just a little bit too far Kit, because it makes interaction with those characters difficult.
If there were ways to avoid the reputation bleedoff (such as a duke meeting an assassin at night to hire him to kill the king) then it could work, but 'griefers' would use that workaround and we're back at square one anyway.
Well, conversation in "around" is not an interaction because there is no way for the system to determine who is being spoken to. And the Duke would rarely pay the assassin themselves.
The difficulty of interaction is exactly what we are looking for to discourage this type of behavior, without disallowing it. We need to first get rid of anonymity, and this system does that. As I mentioned previously though, reputation would not be universal like alignment. Another town might not have heard about how many bad things Roxie has done, so Roxie could "be good" in one town to insure access to supplies, and then run back daily to stick arrows in newbs. But, I think the range of reputation should grow as it is continually reinforced.
It would also, as you mention, require creative ways to get around, such as the Duke having a manservant who does good deeds during the day so he can do the Dukes dirty work at night without bleeding bad rep on him - yay RP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry Blaze, I didn't intend to use it in a derogatory manner, I just found it funny. I used to be a huge carebear fan maybe 15 years ago or so.
And it kind of fits doesn't it? The carebears are all about peaceful solutions and everyone getting along.
No, it no more fits than if I were to describe the pro-PvP camp as "greifers" whose goal is to terrorize and make other players miserable.
If I build a little cottage on one end of town, and it gets looted and burned to the ground (because that is "realistic") by someone running a suicidal character because the worst case might mean that he has to make a new account (which destroys the whole "realistic" argument. Real life doesn't give easy respawns).
PvP works fine when people aren't dedicated to being jerks. Unfortunately, the Internet makes it so people become free to become jerks without the repercussions it has in the real world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Think of all the bounty hunters, assassins, mercenaries, and such that would become blocked concepts by not allowing PvP like this. If someone builds up a character to be super sneaky and deadly, with the ability to disguise themselves, and takes on an expensive contract to steal into a town/building/etc. to take someone out, they shouldn't be allowed to play the character they want (assassins have backgrounds and roleplay elements, too)?
This is the type of game I've been looking for, and haven't really found much of it without RP-strict MUDs. Living evolving world, your actions have consequences, people WILL be better, smarter, faster than you. I'll take realism for 2000gp, Alex.
Let's think this out.
You have your maximized, character for assassination, enter my home and .... I am not logged.
What happen? You automatically kill me?
You don't find anyone?
If you can kill me only when I am logged and active most of your assassin concept has already been broken.
If I can be assassinated while I am not logged I hope I will have the possibility to buy amazing defences.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Think of all the bounty hunters, assassins, mercenaries, and such that would become blocked concepts by not allowing PvP like this. If someone builds up a character to be super sneaky and deadly, with the ability to disguise themselves, and takes on an expensive contract to steal into a town/building/etc. to take someone out, they shouldn't be allowed to play the character they want (assassins have backgrounds and roleplay elements, too)?
This is the type of game I've been looking for, and haven't really found much of it without RP-strict MUDs. Living evolving world, your actions have consequences, people WILL be better, smarter, faster than you. I'll take realism for 2000gp, Alex.
Let's think this out.
You have your maximized, character for assassination, enter my home and .... I am not logged.
What happen? You automatically kill me?
You don't find anyone?If you can kill me only when I am logged and active most of your assassin concept has already been broken.
If I can be assassinated while I am not logged I hope I will have the possibility to buy amazing defences.
A)Coup de Grace
B)If I'm roleplaying an assassin, and go through the trouble to be that assassin, I WILL wait til you're logged in, I WILL stake out your residence, I WILL follow you wherever I need to to get the job done. I MAY entertain a counter-offer if you learn of the hit being put out on you. I don't want the cookie-cutter MMO. I'm tired of the cookie-cutter MMO. Why is it okay only if NPCs are the targets?
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On a larger scale, if I own/run a larger area of land and someone decides to raid it and overthrow my keep/stronghold while I am offline, do I have no other defenses besides basic stuff? If I am away for 2-3 days can all my acquired stuff be taken? How is this stuff handled....I played Evony online for a long while and people would probe your defenses to find out when you weren't around (sleeping or just not available) and then coordinate a series of attacks on your cities and take them. It gets frustrating dealing with a game that you can lose because you have a job or want to sleep....
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a larger scale, if I own/run a larger area of land and someone decides to raid it and overthrow my keep/stronghold while I am offline, do I have no other defenses besides basic stuff? If I am away for 2-3 days can all my acquired stuff be taken? How is this stuff handled....I played Evony online for a long while and people would probe your defenses to find out when you weren't around (sleeping or just not available) and then coordinate a series of attacks on your cities and take them. It gets frustrating dealing with a game that you can lose because you have a job or want to sleep....
Guards? Wards, magical or otherwise? Traps? Hidden rooms/secret doors? The Bank of Abadar?
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a larger scale, if I own/run a larger area of land and someone decides to raid it and overthrow my keep/stronghold while I am offline, do I have no other defenses besides basic stuff? If I am away for 2-3 days can all my acquired stuff be taken? How is this stuff handled....I played Evony online for a long while and people would probe your defenses to find out when you weren't around (sleeping or just not available) and then coordinate a series of attacks on your cities and take them. It gets frustrating dealing with a game that you can lose because you have a job or want to sleep....
That's how EVE works. You need to have people on and able to defend your holdings in the event of attack. Many a system was lost to the Russians while certain US corps slept. With great power, etc. etc.
'Carebear', anymore than 'griefer', is not derogatory unless someone is very sensitive. They are descriptive terms used to save time. I speak as an inveterate carebear on pvp servers ( WOW and WARHAMMER OL) who managed to advance and get a little better at pvp in the process.
It's almost never used in a non-derogatory manner. Therefore it is almost always derogatory.
On a larger scale, if I own/run a larger area of land and someone decides to raid it and overthrow my keep/stronghold while I am offline, do I have no other defenses besides basic stuff? If I am away for 2-3 days can all my acquired stuff be taken? How is this stuff handled....I played Evony online for a long while and people would probe your defenses to find out when you weren't around (sleeping or just not available) and then coordinate a series of attacks on your cities and take them. It gets frustrating dealing with a game that you can lose because you have a job or want to sleep....
Very much agreed. I don't care how things "work" in EVE. If I can lose my life/stuff while I'm logged off, count me out.
Think of all the bounty hunters, assassins, mercenaries, and such that would become blocked concepts by not allowing PvP like this. If someone builds up a character to be super sneaky and deadly, with the ability to disguise themselves, and takes on an expensive contract to steal into a town/building/etc. to take someone out, they shouldn't be allowed to play the character they want (assassins have backgrounds and roleplay elements, too)?
This is the type of game I've been looking for, and haven't really found much of it without RP-strict MUDs. Living evolving world, your actions have consequences, people WILL be better, smarter, faster than you. I'll take realism for 2000gp, Alex.
You need to be told why your "Dedicated Griefer" build shouldn't be allowed?
Clearly, MMOs aren't the genre for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The intention of this design is to permit the potential for a player to attack another, but for the consequences of doing so to escalate the closer the attack occurs to territory that enforces laws against murder. At some point the speed of the retribution for such actions should discourage all but the most egregious criminal activity.
While I am still hopeful for the game, the description of the system here doesn't excite me.
Retribution sounds good, but I am unsure just because, in my experience, are very stupid in trying to interpret player intent. In fact, I imagine a situation where the system's laws may easily protect the attacker or otherwise give no way to deliver retribution upon them.
Right now, from your descriptions, I don't see anything significant enough to stop anyone dedicated to making me miserable and I'm not really interested in a game where my house may be burned down by a jerk that just doesn't care about the repercussions that the world can weigh against him.
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Goblin Squad Member
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'Carebear', anymore than 'griefer', is not derogatory unless someone is very sensitive. They are descriptive terms used to save time. I speak as an inveterate carebear on pvp servers ( WOW and WARHAMMER OL) who managed to advance and get a little better at pvp in the process.It's almost never used in a non-derogatory manner. Therefore it is almost always derogatory.
On a larger scale, if I own/run a larger area of land and someone decides to raid it and overthrow my keep/stronghold while I am offline, do I have no other defenses besides basic stuff? If I am away for 2-3 days can all my acquired stuff be taken? How is this stuff handled....I played Evony online for a long while and people would probe your defenses to find out when you weren't around (sleeping or just not available) and then coordinate a series of attacks on your cities and take them. It gets frustrating dealing with a game that you can lose because you have a job or want to sleep....Very much agreed. I don't care how things "work" in EVE. If I can lose my life/stuff while I'm logged off, count me out.
Think of all the bounty hunters, assassins, mercenaries, and such that would become blocked concepts by not allowing PvP like this. If someone builds up a character to be super sneaky and deadly, with the ability to disguise themselves, and takes on an expensive contract to steal into a town/building/etc. to take someone out, they shouldn't be allowed to play the character they want (assassins have backgrounds and roleplay elements, too)?
This is the type of game I've been looking for, and haven't really found much of it without RP-strict MUDs. Living evolving world, your actions have consequences, people WILL be better, smarter, faster than you. I'll take realism for 2000gp, Alex.
You need to be told why your "Dedicated Griefer" build shouldn't be allowed?
Clearly, MMOs aren't the genre for you.
So your goody two-shoes altruistic love-muffin is okay, but I'm not allowed to play my character? And that somehow negates my right, inclination, desires, or willingness to play MMOs? Maybe I'll use one of my other character slots to start up an NPC Rights organization...
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a larger scale, if I own/run a larger area of land and someone decides to raid it and overthrow my keep/stronghold while I am offline, do I have no other defenses besides basic stuff? If I am away for 2-3 days can all my acquired stuff be taken? How is this stuff handled....I played Evony online for a long while and people would probe your defenses to find out when you weren't around (sleeping or just not available) and then coordinate a series of attacks on your cities and take them. It gets frustrating dealing with a game that you can lose because you have a job or want to sleep....That's how EVE works. You need to have people on and able to defend your holdings in the event of attack. Many a system was lost to the Russians while certain US corps slept. With great power, etc. etc.
That sounds pretty terrible actually. I might lose my house or awesome wizard's tower because I have to work, or see a movie instead of game?
It's a pretend house, but REAL time was spent earning it. To keep people playing through fear of losing their stuff is insidious. I really hope PFO isn't like that.I play games to have fun, and have agency and be a hero. Not to watch the achievements and stuff I earned get stolen because I wanted to read a book instead of game for a day.
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That sounds pretty terrible actually. I might lose my house or awesome wizard's tower because I have to work, or see a movie instead of game?
It's a pretend house, but REAL time was spent earning it. To keep people playing through fear of losing their stuff is insidious. I really hope PFO isn't like that.
I play games to have fun, and have agency and be a hero. Not to watch the achievements and stuff I earned get stolen because I wanted to read a book instead of game for a day.
I am in total agreement.
The difference there is that your 'character' desire can and will ruin the game experience for other people if played that way. Like others, i'll take carebears over jerks any day.
So your goody two-shoes altruistic love-muffin is okay, but I'm not allowed to play my character?
In a word, yes.
Your "right" to play such a character doesn't outweigh the lost customers your playstyle would inevitably produce.
And that somehow negates my right, inclination, desires, or willingness to play MMOs?
You indicated you were tired of MMOs. I merely reiterated it.
If PFO does "break the mold" that would be one thing, but you getting your Griefer class isn't the way that will happen.
Chief Technical Officer
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From the game design:
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The intention of this design is to permit the potential for a player to attack another, but for the consequences of doing so to escalate the closer the attack occurs to territory that enforces laws against murder. At some point the speed of the retribution for such actions should discourage all but the most egregious criminal activity.Player Settlements, of course, are responsible for enforcing law as they see fit. :)
Two things to note: One, the PvP portion of the design document is the part that I am personally the least happy with the current state of. Frankly, at this point, it comes awfully close to describing a game *I* don't much want to play either. If players feel like the only way to not get their asses kicked is to stay at home and farm, we have not done our job to my satisfaction. If you're an adventurer, I want you to be more afraid of the dangers *in* the dungeon than of the dangers in getting *to* the dungeon.
Two, note the implication that there are territories that *don't* enforce laws against murder. Players will build territories and devise their own laws, with their own ways to enforce those laws. I suspect that may actually be where we might be able to partly solve the issue to my liking. I want to ensure that I can choose a place to live where the penalties for being an asshat can be strong enough that people simply won't find asshattery worthwhile.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That sounds pretty terrible actually. I might lose my house or awesome wizard's tower because I have to work, or see a movie instead of game?
It's a pretend house, but REAL time was spent earning it. To keep people playing through fear of losing their stuff is insidious. I really hope PFO isn't like that.
I play games to have fun, and have agency and be a hero. Not to watch the achievements and stuff I earned get stolen because I wanted to read a book instead of game for a day.
I actually think it makes sense. It takes a nations to hold a castle. I imagine it takes a really powerful wizard to build and hold a wizards tower. I would not like a system that would allow just anyone to build either. As such, a nation should always have people on...and a really powerful wizard should be able to create automated defenses. What do you think happens in the fantasy world when the wizard needs to leave the tower? How is this any different than what happens when you log out?
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Ryan, does that mean that if you're a player who doesn't want PvP (most notibly, doesn't want to deal with other players attacking them) and you head off to the deep wilderness, far from towns, laws, etc, then you're simply SOL if someone attacks you? If so, then that is unfortunate.Yes, that is what it means. You need to think about other players as being a part of the world just like wandering monsters. They're predators, and if you venture out alone you're the prey.
Massively Multiplayer games gain value and become a unique and distinctive kind of experience when they maximize human interaction. There are lots of ways to play sword & sorcery games by oneself. MMOs are not designed for that kind of experience. If you want an MMO where you don't have to worry about being attacked by other players that's what most theme park games have specialized in.
Pathfinder Online's sandbox design means that interactions with other players, sometimes via combat, will be an ever-present part of the experience.
There will be characters who will go alone into the wilderness to explore. Those explorers will always be in danger. That danger will often come from the knowledge that if they are detected by other players, they're probably going to die. But if the rewards for solo exploration are sufficient (both qualitative and quantitative), people will do it. I think those rewards will be sufficient.
I think the answer would be to sick Inevitables on the wilderness "griefers," that are generally more powerful than the "griefers" to the same extent as whoever they griefed.
Like a 20th level Chaotic Griefer attacks my 2nd level rogue, he gets visited by a 38th level kolyarut.
You shut down the Griefer Inevitable visitation by agreeing to combat, if that's what you want to do.
I don't want to play with 13 year old kids that don't sleep all summer and call me a puke, man. It's f+#~ing lame.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd love to see the ability to do either much like the game Demon's Souls. I loved that you could see the ghostly images of other players but you could only interact with them if you had chosen to play "online." I've always been a total carebear, but after I had the hang of the game and had come up with some decent equipment, I was willing to go online for a while. It was incredibly fun. But on occasions when I didn't have long to play, or when I really needed the safety of not being attacked constantly PvP, I'd just play offline.
We need a way to do either one without being cut out of big portions of the world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think that rep thing will work. I think the griefers will just find ways around it.
For example, let's say Richard is playing both "Roxie" and "Jamie". If Jamie gives arrows to Roxie, he gets bad rep and can't trade anymore. So, why can't Richard just make a cutout character to take money from Roxie and buy stuff to give back to Roxie. Then, the cutout get deleted and a new one made for the next trade, starting over with a fresh slate. Unless you're advocating a system where even one 'bad' trade will result in a new character being unable to trade anymore.
Even then, Richard can just make the cutout then have Jamie buy the arrows and give them to the brand-new cutout character. Then the cutout gives them to Roxie, takes the rep hit and gets deleted for a new cutout character.
I agree that there will be ways around any system. But that is a lot of work for trading arrows. Why not just avoid killing people? That being said, this system represents how the people around you perceive you. This system has uses even if it does not dissuade Roxie/Jamie from being a jack hole, but it may also do that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The difference there is that your 'character' desire can and will ruin the game experience for other people if played that way. Like others, i'll take carebears over jerks any day.Hold on a minute buddy!
How is his character a jerk? It's an immersive part of the world.
He's not 'griefing' you, he's not doing this to you for the sake of hurting you, he's doing it for payment.
He is what I would consider a griefer if he is forcing a player into PvP against their will. If there were an option to choose to play a PvP game or not, I wouldn't have a problem. But if it's wrong to force Runniteb to play a 'carebear' game because it impacts on his right to choose how to play his characters, then it is equally wrong to force Rathendar to play in Runniteb's style.
What's funny is this:
If I started a thread laughing about how I as a dungeonmaster had a good time last night attacking my 3rd level p.c.'s with Iggwilv, a lot of people would squawk.
But.....griefing's okay?
Really?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The difference there is that your 'character' desire can and will ruin the game experience for other people if played that way. Like others, i'll take carebears over jerks any day.
Just as 'your' 'character' desire can and will ruin the living experience of orcs, goblins, kobolds, etc. the world over.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So your goody two-shoes altruistic love-muffin is okay, but I'm not allowed to play my character?In a word, yes.
Your "right" to play such a character doesn't outweigh the lost customers your playstyle would inevitably produce.
And that somehow negates my right, inclination, desires, or willingness to play MMOs?You indicated you were tired of MMOs. I merely reiterated it.
If PFO does "break the mold" that would be one thing, but you getting your Griefer class isn't the way that will happen.
I said cookie-cutter MMOs. I want something more immersive. Such things as I described could lead to that.
And, FWIW, when I do play RIFT, I don't go into the PvP battleground areas. But I also can't be whatever kind of character I want, and am stuck to the cookie-cutter classes in those cookie-cutter MMOs.
As for your proposed lost customers:
A)Proof of your claims?
B)I think you're giving too little credit to the draw such a type of immersion would bring. Do people stop playing Pathfinder if they're not given 50 point buy and +5 weapons to start the game?
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Do people stop playing Pathfinder if they're not given 50 point buy and +5 weapons to start the game?No, but I imagine a lot of people will quit a particular table where the DM keeps killing their low-level characters with a level 20 assassin tricked out with +5 weapons and armor while they're just trying to get to Thistletop.
That's the equivalent of what a lot of us are concerned about.
This, this very thing is the issue. If they had two servers a Pvp and Non-PvP then I have no issue, but if it is a strict PvP game where I can loose things I have put 20 or more hours into because I was elsewhere, didn't log in on time or went to sleep. Then No thanks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do people stop playing Pathfinder if they're not given 50 point buy and +5 weapons to start the game?No, but I imagine a lot of people will quit a particular table where the DM keeps killing their low-level characters with a level 20 assassin tricked out with +5 weapons and armor while they're just trying to get to Thistletop.
That's the equivalent of what a lot of us are concerned about.
I get that. But remember, I'm asking for an immersive world. What the hell did your level 1 character do to bring on a level 20 assassin? Probably not a damn thing, and that would break the immersion as much as playing in a danger-from-NPC-only world. And what kind of assassin's guild, or self-respecting assassin, would go after a level 1 as a level 20? A level 1 payout wouldn't be enough to get that level 20 out of bed, or pay for the harlots who spent the night there with him.
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The same kind of player that does it for pure Lulz.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I get that. But remember, I'm asking for an immersive world. What the hell did your level 1 character do to bring on a level 20 assassin? Probably not a damn thing, and that would break the immersion as much as playing in a danger-from-NPC-only world. And what kind of assassin's guild, or self-respecting assassin, would go after a level 1 as a level 20? A level 1 payout wouldn't be enough to get that level 20 out of bed, or pay for the harlots who spent the night there with him.
The problem isn't with the idea of roleplayed assassins acting IC so much as with the sort of people who will make a level 20 assassin just to hunt level 1 characters because it'll annoy their players.
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Yeah....playing keepsies marbles with a bunch of 12 year olds who stay up all night spamkilling dire rats.
It's not that that's "SCARY."
It's that it's "F&~&ING LAME."
Immersion?
You know what's immersive?
Everybody has dysentery because it's medieval.
Everybody has diarrhea once every three days, no teeth, and dies in childbirth at 23 (if female).
Oh,....and there's nobody being peasants. Where's all the f+%~ing peasants? Why is everybody a paladin or a traveling craftsman or something?
I want REAL immersion.....I want to be farming for turnips, to give some twelve year old kid with all +5 stuff doesn't burn down my twig hut and murder my family. I want to have only 4 children because the other 8 died: 7 before they were 2 so I didn't even name them, and 1 because a 12 year old griefer with all +5 stuff thought it would be teh RoxX0rz to run him over with a dung cart. THAT is medieval. THAT is immersion.
I just hope there's headsets, so I can hear lotsa 10 year olds cursing when they teabag my peasant. It's funny when 10 year olds drop the "f" bomb.
Damn, I can't wait.