kyrt-ryder |
wraithstrike wrote:Which is what I am asking if anyone has ever really seen this.To hear people talk online this is the most common wizard. At every table, in every game, no need to play anything else ever. Yet I have never seen it and it seems most folks in this thread have never seen it either.seekerofshadowlight wrote:It is looking pretty much as I thought, the "God" wizard is a myth more then fact. And yes I would like to leave theory craft elsewhere.I think if God wizard means having the best spell all the time then it is theory, but if it only means has a spell that can have a substantial affect 95% of the time then it is possible, but the person has to know the game well. In those cases they can be ready with a sorcerer most of the timem also. They just have to depend on scrolls more.
I imagine part of it is a play-style thing. I know I would never have much fun as a blaster Wizard unless I were specialized in blasting to the point that the melees won't be having as much fun because I'm not supporting them with battlefield control/buffs/debuffs AND because I'm outdamaging them with specialized metamagic abuse.
A God wizard just fits better into the game than a blaster (I will note I've got no respect for casual blasters as a general concept. People are welcome to their choice and I'm glad they enjoy it, but just throwing a few d6 doesn't really accomplish much in my mind.)
kyrt-ryder |
TOZ wrote:No idea what that is, all I know is people keep calling em GOD wizards and I have never , ever seen this God like I can do anything wizard.Oh, you mean Schrodinger's Wizard. My bad.
I haven't seen him yet, so I can't say he exists.
That's because he doesn't exist. A Wizard can do anything, but not on the same day. To quote Treantmonk
Wizards aren't the best at any of these roles, and when you start filling these roles you will notice your spells running out really fast. A Wizard may be able to do nearly anything, but don't get fooled into thinking he can do everything. Spells/day is the limitation that ensures that a Wizard doesn't get too big for his britches, or he finds himself filling the one role you never wanted to, the "Waste or space"
kyrt-ryder |
So I take that as you have also not seen a God wizard at the table then.
If defined as a Wizard who can do anything at any time freely? That is correct. I have seen (and played) wizards with VAST amounts of versatility and the ability to be reasonably prepared for any circumstance, but that's not the same as being perfectly prepared.
Abraham spalding |
I imagine part of it is a play-style thing. I know I would never have much fun as a blaster Wizard unless I were specialized in blasting to the point that the melees won't be having as much fun because I'm not supporting them with battlefield control/buffs/debuffs AND because I'm outdamaging them with specialized metamagic abuse.
Mind sharing the build?
kyrt-ryder |
kyrt-ryder wrote:Mind sharing the build?I imagine part of it is a play-style thing. I know I would never have much fun as a blaster Wizard unless I were specialized in blasting to the point that the melees won't be having as much fun because I'm not supporting them with battlefield control/buffs/debuffs AND because I'm outdamaging them with specialized metamagic abuse.
Based on 3.5 experiences Abraham. I haven't had any desire to play a blaster since those days.
Mr.Fishy |
kyrt-ryder wrote:Here's an interesting item to take into consideration (note the sort of item I was advocating still required the Quickdraw feat.)
Scroll Organizer (5 GP): This long strip of leather has an overlapping series of 15 pockets sewn along one side, each large enough to hold a scroll of a single spell. When slipped into a pocket, only the top of a scroll shows, allowing you to scan the scroll titles. Retrieving a scroll from a scroll organizer is a free action once per round.
Hence why it has never been re-issued since 3.0 came out.
It was broken, someone hopefully slapped that Dev and put it in the "never mention this again" box.
Damn It! Thanks Ciretose! What is Mr. Fishy going to give all the wizards on his Christmas list now!
Socks? An Imp sweater?
You got a problem with reuseble scrolls too?
Egoish |
Well you skipped on by my posts of actual experience playing but your definition of god wizard is different to mine. Being able to do something useful to positively effect the outcome of the fight is the objective and is easily acheived through a combination of battlefield control and buffing/debuffing.
A god wizard avoids blasting spells and save or lose spells in favour of keeping his party alive and letting other people play the game as well.
You seem to be thinking of a schrodingers wizard which is a theoretical fantasy which is only used to prove that OBSERVED STATE is required to prevent discussions involving casters degrading into "but then i do this..." schoolyard arguments for ten year olds.
seekerofshadowlight |
Well you skipped on by my posts of actual experience playing but your definition of god wizard is different to mine. Being able to do something useful to positively effect the outcome of the fight is the objective and is easily acheived through a combination of battlefield control and buffing/debuffing.
A god wizard avoids blasting spells and save or lose spells in favour of keeping his party alive and letting other people play the game as well.
You seem to be thinking of a schrodingers wizard which is a theoretical fantasy which is only used to prove that OBSERVED STATE is required to prevent discussions involving casters degrading into "but then i do this..." schoolyard arguments for ten year olds.
Didn't mean to skip your post, just got kinda buried in replying. I have no clue who is. But every time the concept of "GOD" wizard comes up, yes it comes off as pure theory craft and nothing like anything I have ever seen at a table.
Your wizard seems not to be a "God" wizard as the term is used online.
Abraham spalding |
Abraham spalding wrote:Based on 3.5 experiences Abraham. I haven't had any desire to play a blaster since those days.kyrt-ryder wrote:Mind sharing the build?I imagine part of it is a play-style thing. I know I would never have much fun as a blaster Wizard unless I were specialized in blasting to the point that the melees won't be having as much fun because I'm not supporting them with battlefield control/buffs/debuffs AND because I'm outdamaging them with specialized metamagic abuse.
Fair enough that does explain things a bit better.
Sean Mahoney |
It is looking pretty much as I thought, the "God" wizard is a myth more then fact. And yes I would like to leave theory craft elsewhere.
I guess I am still confused as to your definition of God Wizard.
Is it a wizard who has unlimited spells, takes everything on my himself, or just makes the rest of the party useless?
Or is it, as defined in optimization circles, a battlefield control wizard who helps his fellows perform at their best and be the ones to actually take care of the enemy (i.e. a team player)?
When people talk about the first and it happening in their games, it seems to be related to cheating (and there is no doubt in my mind that it was indeed their actual experience).
When they talk about the second the answer seems to be that it works well, and fits well in the game. Since the theory crafting and optimization was to create the second, then I would say it is working fine.
But when people fear stuff they don't understand, create straw men about it and then declare it bad and impossible unless there is cheating... well... not much more I should say about that... you are talking about different things.
Egoish |
Egoish wrote:Well you skipped on by my posts of actual experience playing but your definition of god wizard is different to mine. Being able to do something useful to positively effect the outcome of the fight is the objective and is easily acheived through a combination of battlefield control and buffing/debuffing.
A god wizard avoids blasting spells and save or lose spells in favour of keeping his party alive and letting other people play the game as well.
You seem to be thinking of a schrodingers wizard which is a theoretical fantasy which is only used to prove that OBSERVED STATE is required to prevent discussions involving casters degrading into "but then i do this..." schoolyard arguments for ten year olds.
Didn't mean to skip your post, just got kinda buried in replying. I have no clue who is. But every time the concept of "GOD" wizard comes up, yes it comes off as pure theory craft and nothing like anything I have ever seen at a table.
Your wizard seems not to be a "God" wizard as the term is used online.
I see, the thing you are misunderstanding is the term, "GOD" wizarding is a method espoused by treatmonk in his guide, it refers to using high utility multi function spells such as conjuration summonings and creations along with the powerful buff and debuff spells such as haste to control reality making it easier for your group to win. Under that description my character is a quintessential god wizard.
You are indeed thinking of a schrodingers wizards which does indeed collapse into nothing under the watchful eye(point? tip?) of OBSERVED STATE, this is a wizard who knows every spell has every item and can do everything at once in response to a forum discussion. This is not a god wizard its an unrealistic construction of a forumite who can't handle the fact he got owned by a guy on a bat, you'll never see one at any table, they stop existing as soon as you try to look at them.
OberonViking |
I'm playing a god-wizard atm, in that I nearly always have a very good spell for the occasion, mostly through scrolls. I am worried that it is getting out of hand, I'm worried that the other players and the GM aren't enjoying the game as much because of it.
We started at level three with 30 point-buy, so the characters are all a bit extreme anyway. I took a level of Bard and set myself up as the leader of the party (with the GM's permission I posted Adventurer's Wanted ads around in the campaign and conducted interviews. It was a great way for the players to get to know each other.)
The campaign setting is a steam-punk, sky-pirates - we get some info, gather resources, and go raid somewhere. We've only had three sessions so far, and the GM has really pushed us with three or four very difficult combats. We've walked out with our loot, but with only a single digit hit point each (monster with reach [ogre?] and spells with only a 30' range in a room that was only 60' x 90' - the monster takes a move action and with a single hit I was on 1 hit point).
I have managed to begin each session with over thirty spells through scrolls and spells prepared. I've been careful in accounting for it, and the GM has said that we have a month or so of downtime. That gives me all the time I need to Scribe Scrolls. I buy one or two scrolls that are a level above what I am able to cast. I have it all printed out and I cross them out as we go. I send a copy of my spells to the GM before the game. In fact, my 'character sheet' is a page with 3/4 of it as spells and scrolls (and related info) and his Stat Block squeezed in to the bottom corner.
What is amusing is that the magic that has had the most effect on turning an encounter on its head has been magic items given to us by the GM, from randomly generated treasure. As an example, we were trying to flee a sky-ship that was burning, exploding, and falling apart. We had to traverse a long smoke-filled corridor: make a fort save against the smoke and take 2d6 burn damage from the flames, or... Then there was a 15' jump to be made or fall down two levels into the ship and do it all again. I was last in line as I had cast Hold Portal to slow down a Fire Elemental that had burst from the ship's engines. Me: "I'll drink the potion of Spider Climb you gave me in our last adventure, and climb out through the canon's porthole and meet the others on the top."
My wizard spends almost all his gold on writing new spells and scrolls (he spends 5-10% on his [the party's] ship). This will have to slow down soon as he will need some permanent magic items for defence (at least). I am also going to take a level of Sorcerer partially to slow down his progression relative to the other players, partially because I do enjoy having so many spells prepared.
I will also spend the round starting his Bardic performance, and I do aim to buff the party as much as hinder the foes. I have few Save or Suck spells, preferring to have the party kill the foes rather than my character doing it directly. I am loathe to cast Summon Monster as they feels too much like 'I get two turns.' Blinding Ray gets a lot of use and is probably the party's favourite thing.
Mage Evolving |
OP: No. I don't think that the god wizard as you define him is something that many if any Dms encounter... and if they do encounter it I'm guessing that the book keeping that AdAstraGames suggested will put a stop to that. When the rules are adhered to there is just no way that any one wizard can amass soo many scrolls, wands, and spells to pull it off, let alone always have just the right in their hands the moment that they need it.
However, the "god wizard" that Treantmonk talks about is a very real thing and is incredibly effective. I've seen, played with and played that "god wizard" BUT I have never had a problem with one as a DM. Battle field control, buffing, debuffing, etc. is just smart play and something that I encourage.
kyrt-ryder |
Nope not talking about battlefield controllers, never even heard the term used for them before this thread. It is an odd and confusing term to use for a battlefield control wizard really.
Treantmonk's Guide to Pathfinder Wizards: Being a God
I figured you'd prefer the Pathfinder version since its actually relevant to the game you're playing (both are funny, but I find the 3.5 version slightly moreso.)
Dennis Baker Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've found that the players who have the organizational skills, rules understanding, planning skills, and time/ energy to put into building a ridiculously effective wizard generally become GMs. I've built some pretty crazy effective wizards (though not prescient ones as many people seem to think is possible), but generally when I'm playing the game I don't want to put that much work into a character. If I want to blow stuff up, I play an alchemist. If I want to summon and cast spells, I play a sorcerer. Much less bookkeeping and tracking going on.
TOZ |
Let's see. I've really only experienced the God wizard once, playing one in Curse of the Crimson throne. This was hampered a little due to being a ranger/wizard headed towards eldritch knight.
After reaching level two and gaining spells, we engaged in the chase scene of that module. This is where I shone. As a dwarf, my 20ft movement speed was a hindrance to the chase mechanics. Thus, I used expeditious retreat to give myself a bonus on the jump checks that came at us. When the gnome cleric failed his check and fell from the rooftops, I used feather fall to save him from the minor damage. And when I caught up to the target, daze prevented escape while the rest of the party caught up. Later, during the introduction of a primary NPC, I used grease to prevent the guards from apprehending him.
There's the God wizard at level 1. I can only imagine what I could have done later on, had the game continued.
Luminiere Solas |
i haven't quite played a proper batman wizard, but i have played a fairly well rounded Unseen Seer. a lot of the stories have been embelished many times by many people and i don't have the sheet any more, so i had to embelish to fill the gaps.
his body was almost fully prosthetic, and he didn't look very human, he looked like a slender metal man with a black wig. he used the hit points, fortitude, strength, and dexterity of the admantium body. which allowed more points to be invested in his mental stats. and he was a middle aged human male. the prosthetics came from a 3rd party d20 book pertaining to fantasy cyborgs. his body was effectively like full plate (think Alphonse Elric for appearance), but more resilient, and he wore a black tattered cloak over it.
his familiar was also his daughter, his apprentice, his assistant, his personal mechanic, and his younger opposite sex clone. i took the improved familiar feat and spent 5 times the material cost.
because he had the acidic splatter reserve feat and some sneak attack dice, he never needed to prepare a direct damage spell. because reserve feats blatantly ignore spell resistance, don't provoke, and can effectively be used all day due to being supernatual abilities.
he had many utilitarion wands and scrolls that didn't care about caster level.
his main spells were buffs, battlefield control and summons.
in 3.5 diviners only needed to ban one school, he banned enchantment because it was the most easily replacable. Weekly William was allowing diplomacy to effectively mimic jedi mind tricks. and diplomacy bonuses were easy to milk.
though he had more hit points than the party tank alongside being nearly immune to critical hits due to his metal body. his AC wasn't that good. and his offense was situational at best. he spent more time buffing, battlefield controlling and summoning.
he also had multiple backup spellbooks and his "Familiar" could use his scrolls and wands as well via her ""Master's" UMD. and she was his scroll caddy.
he could theoretically choose his divination spells from any class list he pleased at the most beneficial level due to advanced learning.
and he didn't use his spells to duplicate what he could already do with skills. and he had a boatload of skills due to able learner.
he didn't so much break the campaign as much as he trivialized it for everyone else.
the real broken character in that campaign was a tripping built knight/fighter/paladin/hell reaver (some anti evil outsider PRC for paladins) who was designed to slay spellcasting evil outsiders. though spellcasters and evil outsiders were equally screwed. and he used a Guisarme/armor spikes.
funny thing was the campaign was a published AP loaded with spellcasters and evil outsiders.
Lincoln Hills |
No, I've never seen a God-Wizard*. Even the GM can't see a God-Wizard* - he's that good at wizardry!
On the other hand, every once in a while a wizard's player has a golden session - he predicted the day's events exactly and as a result the party gets a Golden Ticket through the adventure. Usually this is done by laying out a Big Sweet Plan, complete with optimized spell use, that just happens to perfectly compensate for the enemies' reactions and target their weak saves. (Note to GMs: this is a truly rare event anyhow - don't be a spoilsport by changing what your enemies will do after the fact. Let the guy with a 20 Intelligence benefit from it!)
That's not the same as a God-Wizard*, of course - it's just a wizard having a truly excellent day.
*I refer to the Schrodinger's model, not the one that's hyper-optimized. Those can exist at a table, although they aren't very popular with the GM or the other players... for some reason...
Umbral Reaver |
The closest thing I've seen to Schrodinger's wizard (which is what we're talking about, not god wizard), is actually a cleric in a campaign where time is not an issue.
Having your entire spell list available every time you prepare, and a list that grows larger with every added book (while arcane casters must slowly accumulate such additions), makes for a character that truly can deal with anything if given some time to sit down.
Ravingdork |
I've played a Schrodinger's wizard before. He was a 10th-level abjurer scrollmaster with the Hedge Magician trait, who was also a member of a wizard's college/guild. He made himself a blessed book, then promptly learned every core spell he was capable of casting (paying only for the privilege to view other wizards' spells from his college). He then scribed no less than one copy of almost every core spell of 5th-level and lower. Turned out to be quite cheap considering the gains (~20,000gp to learn the spells).
He also had a large number of ongoing long-term buffs as well as a contingency. Additionally, he had the leadership feat which gave him a druid companion (and animal companion) which were absolute beasts in melee, especially after they were buffed by their wizard. The followers were resigned to maintaining the college and helping with item creation.
The wizard was ready for just about anything his CR + 2 when surprised (CR + 6 when not), and ended up seeing very little play because he very much made the other party members feel completely unnecessary.
Nicos |
THis thread is about the scrodinger wizard, but it is also true that in the post god Vs blaster there a lot of god-Scrodinger wizards that beat the blaster because he always have the right spells. And to be fair, also the blaster side have his Blaster-scrodinger wizard, 50% of his spell preapred for the day are blast but when he need to cast a buff he have a buff disponible.
lastblacknight |
I can't speak for everyone Wraithstrike, but I personally have a tendency to leave several slots open (a good rule of thumb is to leave your ability bonus slots open and prepare your class-based slots in the morning.) That way when an important general combat spell gets used up, you just take 15 minutes and refill it, rather than potentially wasting space preparing more than you need in the morning and never using them.
Seconded,
Also on some of my sheets I have a travelling list and a battle list of spells. The travelling list is for those moments whilst we are on a journey PFS etc.. it has more free slots left thatn the battle list which obviously is weighted to battle with far fewer free slots. (The free slots are necessary for flexibility).
DDogwood |
I played a "God Wizard" in a 3.5 game once - that is, a batman/battlefield control wizard, not a Schrodinger's wizard. The party liked having me around, because most of my spells made them more powerful instead of stepping on their toes. I gave the DM a few headaches, though.
Yes, the "god wizard" can cause problems, in that a DM who isn't very well prepared for many eventualities can find some encounters become trivial when they shouldn't. But my experience was that my character wasn't overpowered in the sense that he stepped on other PCs toes at all, or that he was unbeatable by any NPCs. In situations where I misjudged what was coming, or couldn't prepare, my character was one of the weaker members of the party. In situations where I had accurate or lucky guesses about what was coming, my character helped the party become devastating.
But no, a batman/control/god wizard isn't really any worse than a cleric or a druid. In my experience, it's certainly not a case of "any other class is worthless" - in fact, this wizard's power is more directly tied to the rest of his party than most classes.
Luminiere Solas |
i guess that dr. dimitri molotov was a batman\god\contoller unseen seer. i couldn't have pulled him off as a pure wizard. he was just too multifaceted. he never dominated encounters. he merely was little more than a toolbox he was my most enjoyable character at the time. weekly william hated him because of his versatility. too bad his sheet disappeared many years ago.
Malukks |
I am playing the God Wizard sorta. I took bonded item instead of familiar so at least once a day I would have the exact right spell. I am a conjurer and I find summoned creatures are usually what the doctor ordered.
When we sell stuff I usually blow my share on more spells so I have a lot of spells. I also create items (not the typical god wizard thing) but I find it is very useful to make the things the party needs as once we hit 5th level the magic mart had a lot less level appropriate items. I craft items that meet character's specific need which makes them more effective long term. I don't charge extra but they usually tip me well which lets me buy more spells.
When I don't spend time crafting weapons and such I use it to make more scrolls.
I am very effective and I have trivialized some tough encounters just by casting haste and then summoning. Most of the time that is all I need to do because the extra attacks really help our martially oriented party. I often spend round just rolling for my summoned creature and keeping out of the way.
I usually don't need to use scrolls except for tough fights. I usually end the game day with about half my spells intact as I am conservative in using them and don't want to waste them on monsters that will be dead in a round or two.
That said my DM is still learning how to effectively run monsters. We have been gviing him tips on more effective monster and boss tactics. I explained action economy to him and how our 6 person party needs a few more monsters to fight each battle.
I'm playing like you, except for the crafting part (we got an adapted warlock for woundrous shenanigans). Last battle the DM put an AM field around the partial-BBEG... couldn't do much to her. I have only ONE damaging spell (Magic Missile) per se; my summons do the damage for me.
The bolded part is my focus in the game. I use haste, summons and generally stay out of trouble with invisibility; if detected, mirror image and blur. greater teleport is way strong, though :P
Anonymous Visitor 163 576 |
Nine times out of ten, players who are 'unstoppable' are ignoring rules.
I've never had a problem with God wizards in years of GMing. Never, and the idea that wizards are overpowering every aspect of the game is laughable. Yes, a well-played wizard does get to be powerful when played well, but that begins around 11th level, and most of us don't play up there super often. There's no shortage of poorly played wizards, by the way.
Sure, every once in a while, a arcane caster has the right tool for the job, but honestly, it's not that often. And certainly not more often than the rogue can pull off that poisoned sneak attack, or the fighter crits with a falchion, and ends a fight more quickly than I planned.
And who cares, it's not like I'm going to run out of monsters as GM.
Here's how to fix it:
1) Make the caster write down their spells. On paper. Then, don't let them get away with "Oh, I meant to memorize that".
2) Be tough with timing. I've heard a lot of "If I knew this was going to be a water adventure, I'd have memorized water breathing". I'm sure you would have. But you didn't know, and we're not going to rewind time so that you can 'win'. Make it work with what you do have.
3) Read the actual spells. There are a lot of spells, and sloppy players won't check every detail. "No, you can't cast ray of enfeeblement on the dragon." "That's what my character would do" "Read the spell, you'll have to get closer"
4) Longer adventuring days. Make the players go further and do more each day. That way, casters can't bring their entire arsenal to bear on a single problem. If they insist on resting, attack them at night, and enforce those rules on sleeping, making listen checks to hear combat, putting on armor, darkness, etc. Won't be hard to convince them.
5) Enforce the action economy. One of the secret reasons casters are powerful is because they sometimes get free actions. "Can I walk over there, get out a potion from my bag, and drink it?"
NO, you can't. That's a move, a full-round action, and a standard action, and you want to do it in one turn? What would you say if the fighter said "Can I make a second set of attacks, cuz I'm really mad at this guy"? Your answer should be the same, or you're not being fair.
Icyshadow |
Here's how to fix it:
1) Make the caster write down their spells. On paper. Then, don't let them get away with "Oh, I meant to memorize that".
2) Be tough with timing. I've heard a lot of "If I knew this was going to be a water adventure, I'd have memorized water breathing". I'm sure you would have. But you didn't know, and we're not going to rewind time so that you can 'win'. Make it work with what you do have.
3) Read the actual spells. There are a lot of spells, and sloppy players won't check every detail. "No, you can't cast ray of enfeeblement on the dragon." "That's what my character would do" "Read the spell, you'll have to get closer"
4) Longer adventuring days. Make the players go further and do more each day. That way, casters can't bring their entire arsenal to bear on a single problem. If they insist on resting, attack them at night, and enforce those rules on sleeping, making listen checks to hear combat, putting on armor, darkness, etc. Won't be hard to convince them.
5) Enforce the action economy. One of the secret reasons casters are powerful is because they sometimes get free actions. "Can I walk over there, get out a potion from my bag, and drink it?"
NO, you can't. That's a move, a full-round...
I agree with points one, three and five, but numbers two and four just sound spiteful and would probably cause some tension with the whole group thinking "the DM is being a dick", especially with that "no Water Breathing spell ready" one, which would translate to me as "have fun drowning, you guys". Hell, I had the balls to throw a Remorhaz at the party and they started to get whiny about the "overpowered ubercreep" because the thing ate the Monk and the Wizard's spells didn't work on it...despite the fact that they managed to kill an Adult Blue Dragon earlier with sheer dumb luck and some Smite Evil from the Paladin.
Gwyrdallan |
Yes, I have seen and played a wizard who had exactly the correct spell at the correct moment for mostr of a game, it was entirely due to the game being very obvious with too much forshadowing, combined with knowing the GM really well (justifing that IC as well... I have an INT of 24...). It workd well for about half the campaign before things got too unpredictable, at which point I usually had something that could help, but wasn't the perfect spell.
GentleFist |
I DM'd a couple of "God" wizards in my time and it was a pain. I also had the player write his spells and magic items out in pen to avoid the temptation to cheat. I hate cheating in RPGs because it ruins the game for everybody.
One of the things I like to do with a character who has become too powerful for his own good is to devise a special encounter where having powerful magic is a disadvantage.
In one case, I created a creature that attacked the wizard in his sleep. Rather than physical damage, the wizard took damage to both his intelligence and the number of spells he could use. All effects lasted only a day and could be used night after night if needed. For the most part, this dream battle was well received by the wizards...and the players found it quite entertaining.
Another time I created a creature that would physically attack a magic strong party. The creature would attack spell casters and characters with magic items, the more powerful the item, the more the creature was attracted to the character.
Anonymous Visitor 163 576 |
I agree with points one, three and five, but numbers two and four just sound spiteful and would probably cause some tension with the whole group thinking "the DM is being a dick", especially with that "no Water Breathing spell ready" one,
Wizards have scribe scroll. I'd expect them to use that, and at least be halfway prepared, with a scroll of water breathing around somewhere. Or leave a slot open. Or use some of those divinations to get some clues about the future. Or. worst case, come back the next day.
It's the same with the fighters. If you decide you want to wear your full plate and tower shield when cross the sea of storms, well, that's fine, but understand that there could be consequences.
The attack the party at night thing isn't something I do every night, but it is something I might do if the idea of the god wizard is overbalancing the party by blowing all his spells in the day's one encounter.
Svipdag |
I played in Cormyr the tearing of the weave with a fairly powerful wizard. I was a martial character, and we were a mostly martial party.
The wizard started with a lot of scrolls, used summoned monsters and polymorph spells very intelligently. He helped the party past traps, difficult terrain situations, and tough monsters.
As time progressed his scroll collection got burned and the monsters got tougher. He had a close call when his flight spell got dispelled, and finally was killed when he was grappled by an ephemeral hangman. It grappled him following a dimension door via step into shadow ability. He fluffed his concentration check to cast his escape spell, which i think was dimension door.
It was a very good character, well played. It could have died in many situations if not intelligently played, and was unlucky with his death in the end.
God wizard? He was on my side, so I didn't really care too much. Perhaps the GM did, and thats why the Ephemeral Hangman got him...
Thalin |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At the "mortal" levels in the last campaign I played (through 12) their "god" wizard was the only character to suffer multiple deaths. And not because of GM fiat; his saves just weren't that good. Most god wizards have a 7-10 Wis, 14-16 con, and almost exactly a 14 Dex, with increases to saves losing priority to + int items, meta rods, etc. There were the odd encounters made trivial through proper placement of spells and poor dice, but these were far and few between. Also, thanks to the parties' (not just the wizard here) failure to have any ranged attacks (evocation banned school), I had to change a fly-by Dragon's tactics to avoid TPK.
I like wizards, but have to say my experience with them is they pale to archery specialist rangers, Druids, summoners, and witches; though granted I do NOT have experience in uber-high level play. And mid-levels in PFS I'd actually rather a dedicated melee be at the table than the wizard types.
I think the holdover belief that wizards rule the world is outdated (again, taking into account I largely play low-mid levels). Summoners and Druids are insane, Fighters and rangers great, and most of the rest (non-Inquisitor, Barbarian, Rogue, ninja, and cavaliers) are good. And even those can be decent.
Ruggs |
I've solo'd encounters as a wizard, and also ended up on the sidelines. Where I've seen wizards become truly terrifying is in the upper levels (10+). OTOH, there are a lot of badly played wizards, and I'd suggest that the wizard is somewhat tough to play well.
Historically speaking, the wizard/fighter balance was always the best around the mid-lows.
Pathfinder's giving them a run for their money, though. Witch is probably one of the stronger classes out there, now.
Ravingdork |
God wizards? Soloing encounters? Making other PCs feel obsolete?
Old Thread
During a solo game tonight, my 10th-level transmuter found himself seeking help from a small mountain village in a larger quest for an artifact (the villagers were to point me in the right direction).
Sadly, my dealings with these kind mountaineers was cut short when a man flew into the chieftain's tent, bringing with him a wild story of a large war party of Thanoi (medium-sized walrus-men roughly on par with minotaurs) from a neighboring tribe. What was worse, they had brought with them minotaur mercenaries. They were 2 days out and were unmistakeably headed directly for the village.
The village had maybe 100 inhabitants (or maybe 100 combatants, the GM wasn't too clear on the matter).
In any case, the would-be scout reported no less than 500 Thanoi, 200 minotaurs, and a large number of war-trained polar bears.
Having heard of my past deeds (which, being CN, mostly consist of me turning into monsters and eating my enemies) the chieftan turned to me in desperation.
I calmly told him that "I will see what I can do."
After talking to several of the tribe's warriors, we determined that there would likely be a frontal assault on the village from the north. It was also suspected that they may also split there force and flank from the west in order to get behind the village, destroy the snow skiffs (sailboats that sail on snow) station there and thereby cut off all hope of escape. The south and west sides of the village were mountainous, with only a few small passages, so they didn't need to be defended as well.
The soldiers were already busy at work, digging 5 pits to the north of the village and placing spikes made of ice in them. They were also loading supplies into the snow skiffs should they need to escape quickly.
I pulled out my marvelous pigments (which I have a crap ton of), laid out a LOT OF PAPER on the ground, and painted more pits with POISON spikes. The pits went from just 5, to about 20 in little over two hours. I also staggered them, so the enemy would jump over one known pit and land in another.
Next, I painted them a single line wooden palisade with angled spikes pointing outwards (allowing the defenders to easily attack over it, while keeping the attackers at point's end) on the north side of the village in order to slow the main attack force.
For weeks now, my character has been carrying dozens of paper airplanes with heightened explosive runes cast on them. Typically I throw them at people. This time, however, I laid them out on the ground in between the spiked pits and the palisades. That way, the enemies would charge into the first line of pits. Then they would hop over the first line, falling into the second line of pits. By the time the survivors get past THAT, they are going to be cautiously looking at the ground for more pits--right at the explosive runes. Eat mine field you dirty warmongers!
Finally, I pulled 20 bear traps and 20 trespasser's boots from my bag of holding (and yes, I actually had that many; my character is the epitome of being prepared and has nearly everything in that bag, including such esoteric things as samples of brown mold, green slime, and shrieker mushrooms) and buried them in the snow on the east side of the village where we expected to be flanked.
Exhausted from ~3 hours of work, my transmuter rested for 8 hours while the villagers made further preparations to hold off the invaders long enough for their families to make their escape into the mountain passes.
I came to, prepared a completely unusual (for me) set of spells designed for mass warfare, did some mathematical calculations with my 28 intelligence to determine how close the enemy would be to the village if "they were really booking it."
At 2 a.m. in the dead of night I cast teleport and arrived where I suspected the army to be. I also had overland flight cast and popped into being a literal mile in the air (that way, if I arrived off target, I might see the army off in the distance and fly over to meet them--that, and I wouldn't be totally surrounded).
I saw naught but a single torchlight 2 miles off in the distance. Well...my calculations were CLOSE. :P
I flew over to investigate, lowering my altitude to about 800 feet (my maximum spell range). There was a lone torch bearer, a minotaur, trudging through the snow as fast as his hooves could carry him.
Though I couldn't make it out from 800 feet high, I could easily tell there was a great deal of movement behind him. I had found them: an entire army, being lead through the snow by a single guiding light.
From 800 feet up--far too high for them to hear my normal voice over their own chatter and march chants--I cast a long series of buffs
The buff list, in no particular order:
- darkvision
mage armor
shield
resist energy (fire)
resist energy (cold)
stoneskin
greater invisibility
false life
haste
I'm sure there were others, but that's all I can recall. Most were cast from scrolls I had been saving up.
My GM described a series of gigantic sleds each being pulled by two polar bears. At the front of each sled was a thanoi driver, a handful of minotaurs, and about a half dozen or so thanoi soldiers in the back.
My GM thought himself clever. The sleds were in a 10x10 formation, spaced far enough apart that I would never hit more than 2 with my fireballs and black tentacle spells. Sly dog.
That would not do. I had to come up with a way to really bloody their nose. Hurt their morale enough that they may not want to continue their attack on the small human village mere hours away.
What did I do you ask? I cast pyrotechnics on the torchbearer. Suddenly, the only light source was snuffed out and nearly 200 thanoi, barbarians, and polar bears went completely blind. The rest were plunged into darkness. Only the minotaurs have darkvision.
My goal was to get the front row of sleds to stop in confusion, and possibly have the 2nd and 3rd rows crash into them (or slow to a stop near them to see what was going on). If it worked, HOPEFULLY it would get them to bunch together in a tighter area. But what if the polar bears or their driver's panicked and they instead scatter rather than bunch up?
Luckily, I have 28 intelligence. I don't rely on HOPE.
I next cast wall of ice, creating a 200-foot long barrier in front of the center of the army (separating the poor confused, blind torchbearer on the other side from his comrades).
As I predicted, many of the polar bears bolted forward in their blind panic (pun intended), slamming into my wall. Others reared backwards only to have the blinded sled drivers behind them crash into them. Others still further back, who were not so disabled from the blinding light, moved closer to figure out what the bright flash was and what all the commotion was about.
I then let loose with four black tentacles spells one after another at the bunched up masses. Due to the blindness and surrounding darkness, many of them couldn't even see the tentacles that were choking the life out of them or their fellows at arms, nor the wall of ice that had blocked the center of the army's advance.
Of the 200 or so people caught in the kill zone ~150 perished outright, ~40 got away with severe injuries, and ~10 were lucky enough to get away completely unscathed.
Once the screams of their dying brethren rang through the army chorus like a chainsaw through a parakeet, the army was quick to get more torches lit. What the found was horror: 1/5 of their army had been decimated. Many more died as they escaped the tentacles, only to stumble in the darkness into another tentacle area nearby. Others perished because they charged into the tentacles in order to try and save their comrades, themselves becoming grappled.
There was such chaos and confusion, the center of the army (just beyond the carnage) broke out into a massive and deadly brawl with cries of "the thanoi have betrayed us" and "the minotaurs are trying to kill us!" I flew over the brawl (which quickly grew to involve no less than 100 participants).
I flew across the army, using more scrolls to stay hasted and invisible, and searched for tightly packed groups of enemies for my 4 fireballs (as I was now out of tentacle spells). At this point many of the thanoi and minotaurs on the outskirts of the army were heading towards the brawl to investigate. Half of them actively worked in an organized fashion to break up the brawl. The other half heard the shouts of betrayal and joined in. I was seriously considering targeting the former groups in order to let them go on killing each other a little longer.
After a few moments consideration, however, I noticed something off in the distance: some stopped sleds in the rear of the army which looked completely unlike the others. Upon closer inspection, 5 of them were supply sleds (carrying only one driver and a crap ton of food, winter clothing, extra weapons and armor, and other valuable supplies for an army on the move) whereas 5 more were each carrying a siege weapon ideal for smashing small village huts, palisades, and snow skiffs to splinters from long range.
Kill dozens more men trying to break up the brawl? Or go for the supply line and weaken morale? It was a tough decision. The barrels of oil and pitch on some of the supply wagons made the decision a bit easier though.
I fireballed one of the siege engines, which exploded in dramatic fashion. Therein lies my first, and last, mistake of this engagement.
Unlike black tentacles growing out a black night, a fireball is FAR LESS discreet.
The once motionless supply wagons scattered every which way, making it impossible for me to catch more than one at a time. Nevertheless, I knew even one of those weapons would allow their forces to easily breach the village's meager defenses.
Fireball 2, 3, and 4 went off, destroying 3 more supply sleds in a blaze of fiery glory. However, one remained, and I was now out of area effect spells.
What to do? What to do!? I settled on the subtle but effective shatter spell. Snapped the remaining catapult's trunk like a twig.
Still, there were five more sleds out there carrying food and other supplies valuable to an army's morale. After a quick scan of the battlefield, I found them. Though I was out of area effect spells, I was smart enough to take the Preferred Spell (lightning bolt) feat, which allows me to spontaneously cast lightning bolt. As luck would have it I had a dispel magic spell and a lesser globe of invulnerability spell left (to counter any enemy spellcasters I might encounter). Since no spellcasters had made an appearance (other than my magnificent self), I dropped them, caught three supply sleds in one heightened lightning bolt, and the remaining two in the other (non-heightened) lightning bolt. The flaming supply sleds created yet another barrier of sorts at the rear of the army, trapping them between a wall of fire and a wall of ice with nothing but death and carnage in between.
Take that you fat furries!
Unfortunately, the chaos of the brawl was now beginning to subside and the army was starting to get disturbingly organized again. I flew invisibly over their remains, looking for targets of opportunity.
I spotted two in the form of obvious military commanders. I maneuvered towards the closest one and, getting down into the thick of the crowd, blasted him with magic missile. Normally, one might suspect a flying invisible spellcaster when you get popped by a spell out of nowhere, but I'm smarter than that. Confusion is my ally. As far as the minotaur captain was concerned, the missiles came from somewhere in the crowd. The fact that I would change my position at an unbelievable speed (40 feet fly + 30 feet haste) each round before blasting him, also made it appear as there were multiple assailants in the crowd.
Four magic missiles later, and wholly exhausted of my attack spells, the tough bastard was still alive! Still looking around in confusion, calling out to subordinates to "find that weaselly thanoi bastard attacking from within the crowd" the commander had no chance when I then popped him in the face with a quartet of acid vials. That did it. He went down and I chopped off his head with my axe for good measure.
My invisibility spell was rapidly running out and the brawl had almost ended. Only 4 alchemist fires left, and so many survivors.
28 intelligence? I could do more. I NEED to do more.
I cast alter self, making myself look like the minotaur leader (we're in Dragonlance, so they are medium humanoids, but just as tough as the real thing). I picked up his highly unique looking magical greataxe to add to the disguise.
"What if they find the real body?" asked my GM.
"What 'real' body? His face is melted off and his body blasted apart. I also have his axe." Just to be safe, I kicked some snow over the corpse.
I then ran towards the 50 remaining minotaurs, crying out in their own tongue (I speak every regional dialect in the campaign setting thanks to the linguistics skill) a powerful rallying war cry. I also cursed the thanoi for their treacherous natures and assured my "brothers" that they would never be forgiven for the blood spilled this day. Bolstered at seeing their leader alive and well, they resumed the fight. They fought their way out of being surrounded by embittered thanoi, formed a tactical line, and charged with horn and axe!
I took the time to burn four more sleds and their occupants with my last flasks of alchemist's fire. I also ordered the minotaurs to release the surviving polar bears (many of which were already in a blood frenzy) and turn them against the thanoi (who unlike these minotaurs possessed no ranks in handle animal).
Within minutes, the minotaurs were all dead, having been overwhelmed by the slightly weaker thanoi. They put up a good fight, however, slaying twice their number. I had been captured (surrounded by exhausted and confused thanoi who, except for being grateful for their lives, were absolutely miserable at this strange turn of events) with several spears at my throat. They were forced to kill or drive off the 100 or so enraged polar bears as well, which cost them the lives of another good 150 thanoi.
In just under 10 minutes, I had reduced an army of approximately 900 (500 thanoi, 200 minotaurs, 200 polar bears) to only 200 (all thanoi). I had also immobilized their sleds, destroyed their cavalry, burned their siege engines, annihilated their supply train, killed one of their two leaders, sowed massive confusion and distrust, and UTTERLY OBLITERATED their morale.
I was smiling when I teleported away from under their spears (using my once per day arcane bond ability).
I appeared back at the small village and announced my return. I was greeted by incredulous stares and the question "you already left?"
Much surprised to see that I had returned in so short of time, a young boy stammered out another two questions: "How did it go? Did you bloody their nose?"
One of the elders feinted when he heard of all that I had accomplished IN LESS THAN TEN MINUTES. Several more villagers found religion.
Not only had I single-handedly decimated an entire army of their enemies, I bought them an extra day to prepare their defenses further should the survivors be absolutely insane enough to WALK the rest of the way in the FREEZING COLD while HALF STARVED. Always the cautious and prepared one, I slept in a rope trick and readied more war spells for the coming morning. After all, the relations with the neighboring tribes, although strained over the years, had never been a cause for war. Something was pushing that warband towards this village. Of that I'm sure.
While I napped and prepared for the worst, my fellow party members arrived in the village. It seems that, though we were separated by circumstance before, they had managed to get ahead of me and recover the artifact on their own.
"Good job guys. Real good. Wait till you hear what I did today." :D
Both the thanoi and the minotaurs were CR 4 each. The polar bears were CR 5. I dunno the CR of the leaders, but they had class levels and magical gear to be sure.
I would have gained 5 levels on the slow XP track, or 7 levels on the fast XP track. Sadly, my GM doesn't use XP in this particular campaign. :(
The havoc and destruction I caused the enemy in tonight's game would have been totally expected of a 15th-level character, but to have done it all with a 10th-level character is just amazing to me.
Now I just need my GM to bring on that ancient red dragon that's been hunting us down to avenge the death of it's slain dragon rider master. I'm ready for her now.
LazarX |
Never had that problem because I'm extremely strict with magic while remaining within the ruleset.
I'm even stricter when it comes to custom-designed items.
Major problems most DM's have is when they let magic run away with the game.