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Hi Everybody,
Just wondering if anybody knew of a Pathfinder Society (organized play) module which gives the Handy Haversack as a reward item?
Thanks,
Amber
Amber, that question is inappropriate here. You are asking for information that players are not intended to be privy to before completing a scenario. Although the question seems harmless, it becomes a slippery slope that leads to questions like "Is there a scenario that features a lot of undead, because I have a undead-specialized cleric that I want to use." Can you understand why this presents a problem? One of the game rules is "Don't read the scenario before you play it".
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Hi Everybody,
Just wondering if anybody knew of a Pathfinder Society (organized play) module which gives the Handy Haversack as a reward item?
Thanks,
Amber
Handy haversack 2000gp, so you are eligible to buy it after you earn 13 Fame Points, from your faction (approximately 7+ adventures, which should be somewhere after you have achieved 2nd or 3rd+ level).
Have fun in the meantime.
Robyn
One of the game rules is "Don't read the scenario before you play it".
Actually this isn't a rule, though I strongly agree that it should be. As it stands...
You receive GM or player credit regardless of the order in which you play or GM the scenario.
... you can read the scenario and run it, then turn around and legally be a player at the next table. I understand that Paizo doesn't wish to alienate people willing to GM, but it does seem odd that players can't replay because of player knowledge, but then can read the scenario and then play.
One of the game rules is "Don't read the scenario before you play it".Actually this isn't a rule, though I strongly agree that it should be. As it stands...
You receive GM or player credit regardless of the order in which you play or GM the scenario.... you can read the scenario and run it, then turn around and legally be a player at the next table. I understand that Paizo doesn't wish to alienate people willing to GM, but it does seem odd that players can't replay because of player knowledge, but then can read the scenario and then play.
Yeah, this paragraph from version 3.03 is missing from version 4.01:
Players who read a scenario prior to playing it are considered to be cheating, as it may give them an unfair advantage over other players when accomplishing their goals. Players may read a scenario after they have played it, but may not do so to second guess a GM’s decisions or play styles.
So while still unethical, it is no longer illegal.
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So while still unethical, it is no longer illegal.Players who read a scenario prior to playing it are considered to be cheating, as it may give them an unfair advantage over other players when accomplishing their goals. Players may read a scenario after they have played it, but may not do so to second guess a GM’s decisions or play styles.
Most Judges I know choose to not play a scenario after they've run it.
The few times I have it's been several months and to be honest I don't remember the scenario by the time I've run it. I'm sure there are many exceptions to this, however, calling it unethical is a bit harsh in my opinion.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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AS a PFS GM, I have ran many scenarios, some of them over and over again. When I do get time to actually play, the odds are that it will be one I ran at some point in time. Luckily, the sheer volume of scenarios I have run makes it near impossible to remember the plots of each scenario, let alone ALL the Faction missions or specific stat-blocks.
Accusing a player who has GMed a scenario previous to playing it as cheating is not only wrong, but a grave disservice to those who have dedicated their time to make PFS great.
So you do not consider it unethical for a player to buy a scenario, read it, and then play it?
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"Players who read a scenario prior to playing it are considered to be cheating".
Now it seems the exception to this rule is if someone has GMed the scenario beforehand and is now playing it to get his player credit.
"so while still unethical, it is no longer illegal"
Enevhar Aldarion, are you referring to people being able to run a scenario before playing it?
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So you do not consider it unethical for a player to buy a scenario, read it, and then play it?
What my words meant were:
Reading to know the scenario before you play it would be considered cheating per the rules
Reading the scenario to judge it and then playing it at some point I do not consider cheating or unethical.
Ethics is a wide and varied topic (I've had more than enuf classes involving them) and in my opinion best left up to the individual person to interpret what they feel is ethical or not.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I agree with Thea, that there is a groad range of reasons someone might sit at a table as a player with knowledge of the adventure.
Worst: Someone buys a scenario, reads through it for the purpose of spoiling it, and then uses his knowledge to his advantage at the table, spoiling his fellow players' time.
Understandable Someone buys a scenario just to read it. Some time later, he sits at a table, playing through the adventure, trying not to let his dim memories influence his play.
Better Someone buys a scenario, prepares it, and runs it. Later on, he sits at a table in order to get player credit, doing his best to let his companions have all the fun; he might ask an "innocent" leading question of the GM, if he thinks it will get the party on the right track.
Better yet Someone buys the scenario as a GM, prepares it, runs it. Later, he runs a pre-gen at a table in order to make enough players to count as a legal table.
--+--
I admit, I have determined which PC to play in a scenario based on the advertising blurb. "Oh, the blurb says this is an Osirion dungeon-crawl? I have an Osirion Pathfinder Delver who'd love that!" "We get turned into undead? I think it will be fun to see how my paladin does on that one!"
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I agree with Thea, that there is a groad range of reasons someone might sit at a table as a player with knowledge of the adventure.
Worst: Someone buys a scenario, reads through it for the purpose of spoiling it, and then uses his knowledge to his advantage at the table, spoiling his fellow players' time.
Understandable Someone buys a scenario just to read it. Some time later, he sits at a table, playing through the adventure, trying not to let his dim memories influence his play.
Better Someone buys a scenario, prepares it, and runs it. Later on, he sits at a table in order to get player credit, doing his best to let his companions have all the fun; he might ask an "innocent" leading question of the GM, if he thinks it will get the party on the right track.
Better yet Someone buys the scenario as a GM, prepares it, runs it. Later, he runs a pre-gen at a table in order to make enough players to count as a legal table.
--+--
I admit, I have determined which PC to play in a scenario based on the advertising blurb. "Oh, the blurb says this is an Osirion dungeon-crawl? I have an Osirion Pathfinder Delver who'd love that!" "We get turned into undead? I think it will be fun to see how my paladin does on that one!"
Chris, Good points. I think the one thing judges fear (I know I do) is your worst case scenario. For me as a judge one of the fun things is seeing how people respond to situations the first time they are presented with them. Having a player at the table that has read the scenario beforehand spoils that. Granted I've had other Judges sit at my table and I've never had a problem with them; I think most judges that play after judging go out of their way to "play asleep" when major decision need to be make so as to not influence the group decision.
Now that the thread is completely derailed from the original post ... what shall we doooooooooo
runs around the thread leaving little chocolate bunnies
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So while still unethical, it is no longer illegal.
You are splitting hairs.... consider:
If you spoil the plot for the table, the GM has the right to ask you to leave the table and is under no obligation to award you a Chronicle sheet. Be very careful about character knowledge versus player knowledge. If you’re concerned about possibly spoiling something during the course of play, take the GM aside and ask how she would like it handled. Remember: the goal of replay is to make sure fun gaming happens, not to remove the fun from gaming.
So... while it's not illegal to read a scenario, a GM can still kick you from the table if you are clearly running based on your ill gotten knowledge.
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I agree with Thea, that there is a groad range of reasons someone might sit at a table as a player with knowledge of the adventure.
Worst: Someone buys a scenario, reads through it for the purpose of spoiling it, and then uses his knowledge to his advantage at the table, spoiling his fellow players' time.
Understandable Someone buys a scenario just to read it. Some time later, he sits at a table, playing through the adventure, trying not to let his dim memories influence his play.
Better Someone buys a scenario, prepares it, and runs it. Later on, he sits at a table in order to get player credit, doing his best to let his companions have all the fun; he might ask an "innocent" leading question of the GM, if he thinks it will get the party on the right track.
Better yet Someone buys the scenario as a GM, prepares it, runs it. Later, he runs a pre-gen at a table in order to make enough players to count as a legal table.
--+--
Thanks Chris, good points
I admit, I have determined which PC to play in a scenario based on the advertising blurb. "Oh, the blurb says this is an Osirion dungeon-crawl? I have an Osirion Pathfinder Delver who'd love that!" "We get turned into undead? I think it will be fun to see how my paladin does on that one!"
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Hi Everybody,
Just wondering if anybody knew of a Pathfinder Society (organized play) module which gives the Handy Haversack as a reward item?
Thanks,
Amber
Trying to get back to the original question.
I was having this issue as well - starting with a Str7 Wizard having mobility and high acrobatics to stay flexible on the battlefield in regard to positioning. But having to stay on light encumbrance for it to work.
Solution 1:
Just play and hope the Handy Haversack appears by chance. Good luck with it. And I mean it sincerely that I wish you that you manage it as I didn't. I got some Elven boots instead early on on my chronicle. Part of the fun is to take what you get.
Solution 2:
Role-play your low encumbrance until you have enough PA to effort a Handy-Haversack. In my first game I arrived with a miniature of a wizard and a miniature of a sack. I then looked around (in character) to find someone with a high strength and ask him - can you carry this for me? Dwarfs are perfect for this - but fighters with Str.18+ tend to work fine as well.
This arrangement stopped when I fire balled some paperwork belonging to a BBE that for some reason he really wanted - but by that time I was able to afford a Handy Haversack as I had gathered enough fame.
Solution 3:
You can now get for 5 PA a porter. That can be done on level 2 for most characters. Being in higher levels now I felt I need one for my status and in memory of my early days I named the young present boy in honor of my first player character porter.
So try not to shortcut. Part of building a character is to overcome struggles.
Thod - player of Theodum and His Porter named Walter
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Another "cheap" solution for low levels is 1 PP for a combat-trained riding dog. Slap some saddle bags on him and take care to keep him out of AoE. Items that you don't need swift access to, like spellbooks, rations, rope, etc can easily be stowed in the bags freeing up some encumbrance for the "squishy."
And worst case, the dog is killed, you're only 1 PP away from dog II. :-)
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So you do not consider it unethical for a player to buy a scenario, read it, and then play it?
It is if the player is doing it intentionally to spoil the plot of the scenario or to farm for certain creatures/rewards.
Under the current rules, it is legal, and therefore not unethical, for a GM to later play the scenario. However, that information should be provided to the current GM. Should the player, with knowledge, spoil the scenario for the "fresh" players, s/he should be asked to leave the table.
Keep in mind, also, that 1st level mods/scenarios are eligible for replay so you could easily have players on their fifth, sixth, etc run though First Steps. The plots are not very "secret" at that point.
In a perfect world, we would not need to provide these exceptions to the "don't read the mod" rule, but finding willing GM's or making legal tables for n00bs, can complicate perfection and makes these types of exceptions necessary.
[/threadjack]
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I think everyone is putting way too much thought into it. If a person buys a scenario, is a jerk about it while playing it then yeah kick the person for being a jerk and ruining it as per any other reason to kick someone.
A person should otherwise not be hunted for buying a scenario, if for no other reason than it keeps Paizo bills paid and more good stuff coming. IMO everyone should buy all the scenarios but be good sports about how they use them. If not, get kicked.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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So you do not consider it unethical for a player to buy a scenario, read it, and then play it?
Yes. Especially if they have not intention what so ever on running the scenario. I have only had one instance in which, as a GM, I had a player I suspected of doing this. I evicted him from a scenario after he "miraculously" found a secret door... following him playing multiple sessions and never once even searching for one. He sheepishly admitted that he had read it first when confronted afterwards. I don't remember if he ever returned.
Cheating is cheating; it ruins the game and challenge for the other players. As a GM, I am fair; I roll my dice in front of the players, I follow the tactics as written (even when sub-standard), and I allow interested players a chance to peruse the scenario AFTER they have played it if they feel I missed something. I don't feel the urge to audit every character who sits at my table. I appreciate respect for the game from my players; cheating is a slap in the face to all of that.
EDIT: Sorry for the passionate answer... this is one subject that is rather sore with me. It almost forced me out of PFS early one due to a misunderstanding about how credit was given to GMs following "Play, Play, Play" and its allowances to players.
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I do agree with previous posters, If you buy a scenario read it and then play the scenario, you are cheating.
If you buy a scenario, read it and GM it, and then you play the scenario, you are not cheating. I think it is good form to inform the GM if you have GMed the module before. And if you are replaying, it is a good idea to take a back seat so you don't spoil the scenario for the other players.
And now you can replay a scenario (you won't get any credit unless it is a Tier 1 Scenario/ module)
Interestingly, when i have played Wow, the assumptions and attitudes are reversed. You are expected to have an instance memorized down to the point of knowing where the "random" mobs are patrolling and exactly where to stand to "tank" a monster. people often "farm" an instance in order to get a particular piece of gear to drop. Also you have to "replay" instances in order to accumulate enough triumph/ frost badges, now justice/ victory points..(maybe its changed) to get better gear. The other players in a pick up group (pug) often get annoyed when you show up and you tell them " I haven't played this instance before" .
The assumptions for a pen and paper RPG are entirely different. You have to creatively solve a problem rather then memorize an instance in a MMORPG.
Interestingly, when i have played Wow, the assumptions and attitudes are reversed. You are expected to have an instance memorized down to the point of knowing where the "random" mobs are patrolling and exactly where to stand to "tank" a monster. people often "farm" an instance in order to get a particular piece of gear to drop. Also you have to "replay" instances in order to accumulate enough triumph/ frost badges, now justice/ victory points..(maybe its changed) to get better gear. The other players in a pick up group (pug) often get annoyed when you show up and you tell them " I haven't played this instance before" .
This is because people play MMO's for different reasons that table-top games. The driving goal of an MMO is to acquire better gear and level up, so the challenges that you face are treated more like speed bumps and not given any roleplay value.
In Organized Play, the same mentality can exist to a much small degree, but main drive of players is to experience something new. Whether that be the plot of a new scenario, the playability of a new build, the roleplaying affect of a new character's personality (Int dump FTW!), or the general interaction of multiple factions trying to secretly do their missions, I think the atmosphere and experience is what most people play Society for.
That said, I agree with Paizo's reason not to penalize those wonder people called GMs, but I'd like to see Paizo at least encourage a person to play a scenario before running it just for the new experience.
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That said, I agree with Paizo's reason not to penalize those wonder people called GMs, but I'd like to see Paizo at least encourage a person to play a scenario before running it just for the new experience.
The changes were made originally to encourage people to judge more as opposed to penalize them for judging as the original rule was that you couldn't play a scenario after judging it.
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That said, I agree with Paizo's reason not to penalize those wonder people called GMs, but I'd like to see Paizo at least encourage a person to play a scenario before running it just for the new experience.
Honestly, I think that they consistently have made that preference clear.
Originally, there was no GM credit - the only way to get a Chronicle was to play the scenario.Then, GMs could earn credit only for "eating" a scenario, but players could earn up to 5 Chronicles for the same scenario thru PPP.
Finally, we came to the 1 & 1 rule.
I think the wording of the Guide makes it clear that playing first is preferred (ex the requirement to tell the GM that you have run the scenario). However, I think that there is also an understanding on the part of the orgs that the people who GM would rather play 1st anyway, or would rather only GM. And that encouraging players to GM is the only way to have growth in the campaign.
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Better Someone buys a scenario, prepares it, and runs it. Later on, he sits at a table in order to get player credit, doing his best to let his companions have all the fun; he might ask an "innocent" leading question of the GM, if he thinks it will get the party on the right track.
Generally, as a rule, I inform the GM & Table before the start of the adventure if I have read/run the scenario previously (but have not gained player credit for it) so it is clear that I will be leaving decision making to the other players & taking other steps to avoid metagaming.
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Nickademus42 thank you, that makes sense, your main and pretty much only goal is to grind through your levels, and farm the instances for gear, so you can have a more powerfull character, so he can well get better gear.
I can see some of that “grinding” in PFS to a much lesser digree, as people try new character builds, character concepts etc.
I have thought the genius of a RPG, is that you have a commonly shared rules set, which helps guide and shape and help us tell our own stories.
While I have thought the genius of a MMO such as Wow, is that you have one rules set and story line that millions can take part in.
From my limited perspective, that of a pen and paper role playing gamer, there is no role playing as I understand role playing in these online games. I understand that is a limitation of the programming. But I do hear people talk about “role playing” I have yet to come across it. Perhaps I’m missing something.
Well I guess ideally I prefer to play a scenario before GMing it, but sometimes it doesn’t work out that way, and the coordinator needs you to run a scenario that you haven’t played before, and this is the only scenario that all of the players can play.
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Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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I've been needed to round out a party for a few scenarios that I had previously run. I generally pulled out a pre-gen and told the other players not to look to me for any decisions.
It was my understanding that I was required to notify the GM and I considered him to have authorization to switch some details to keep things "fresh".
When I ran Master of the Fallen Fortress yesterday, a couple of the players had read and GMed it. I switched the locations of some monsters and swapped a couple of creatures for other ones with a similar CR (e.g.: CR 1 Giant Spider/Spider Swarm; CR 2 Bat Swarm/Dire Bat). The party chose to hole up and rest, so I had the villains move, lurking in ambush.
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Re: the OP, Amber is one of two DMs in our local group and she was looking to run the scenario, wanting to give her players a chance to buy one. :-| So, in this particular case I am afraid it was more a case of misplaced DM benevolence than desire to "cheat"... at any rate, I will pass on to her the info that Robyn posted so that she is aware of it.
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Hi Everybody,
Just wondering if anybody knew of a Pathfinder Society (organized play) module which gives the Handy Haversack as a reward item?
Thanks,
Amber
C'mon people, especially Venture-Captains, upsell!
Your response should be something like; "Buy them all and find out!"
Or have I just worked too much retail????
Darn shoe stores, they stay in your blood forever.
;)
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Re: the OP, Amber is one of two DMs in our local group and she was looking to run the scenario, wanting to give her players a chance to buy one. :-| So, in this particular case I am afraid it was more a case of misplaced DM benevolence than desire to "cheat"... at any rate, I will pass on to her the info that Robyn posted so that she is aware of it.
Out of context, the question seemed inappropriate. Posting it in the General Discussion forums didn't help. Now that Whiskey Jack has framed the question it does indeed seem harmless. I hope that Amber was not aghast at my response to her and the subsequent discussion about out-of-game knowledge & cheating.
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So you do not consider it unethical for a player to buy a scenario, read it, and then play it?
If you want to make a blanket statement, then my blanket answer is no.
But there is no easy yes or no answer to this question.
If you purchase and read the scenario with the intent to run it, but end up playing it first. It is not unethical. That's within the rules, and circumstances just waylaid your intent.
If you purchase and read the scenario with the intent to benefit while playing then yeah, its unethical.
Nobody knows but you, whether what you did was cheating or not, unless its obvious during play that you've read the scenario and are acting on said knowledge. But that is often the crux of ethics.