Has there been a definite ruling whether or not reincarnation spells or effects allow you to go beyond your natural lifespan? In the past, I've seen arguments that you still have an appointed time to die (as with Timeless Body), but the spell does say that the new body you receive is a young adult. In this case, what happens with physical and mental aging modifiers, respectively? And if this is doable, does it mean there exist druids and witches on Golarion that have reincarnated through centuries or millenia?
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Yes you can keep doing it over and over. However not many people have the power to cast the spell and may have other reasons for not doing it endlessly.
Just found an example in the River Kingdom book - apparently one of the rulers have been doing this for a long time. Precisely the problems you mention seems to be catching up to him, though. Thanks!
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In Golarion, Pharasma can decide to judge your soul immediately after you die, before reincarnation can be cast, and after being judged and sent to your destination you can't be reincarnated or resurrected.
So it will work only as long as she allow it. Till that point, from the RAW of the spell, you will have an unlimited number of lives (I couldn't say "you live forever" as your old body actually die).
When the spell is cast you keep your current mental characteristics values, you remove your racial and age modifiers from the physical characteristics and roll to see your new race. Then you apply the racial modifiers of your new race to your physical characteristics.
You will keep the mental characteristics modifiers accrued while you where in your previous body (or bodies) but you will no get them again when your new body get old enough. They are applied only once to the same mind. You can treat them like modifiers coming from the same source and so not stackable.
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Has there been a definite ruling whether or not reincarnation spells or effects allow you to go beyond your natural lifespan? In the past, I've seen arguments that you still have an appointed time to die (as with Timeless Body), but the spell does say that the new body you receive is a young adult. In this case, what happens with physical and mental aging modifiers, respectively? And if this is doable, does it mean there exist druids and witches on Golarion that have reincarnated through centuries or millenia?
Yes.
BUT, you could use the spell that creates a second lifeless body of yourself at a younger age (lets say 30), and then when you die your soul will transfer to that empty vessel and you can start again. Just make sure to keep creating secondary bodies.
I actually had the idea for a villain with an amulet that lets him Reincarnate every month or so, who's been living for ages without end. However, the amulet was made by an evil druid and thus required regular blood sacrifices so it could be recharged with it's Reincarnate effect, so yeah. Also, looks like someone figured out a way for Necromancers and Witches to also keep on living. I think the spell Ossian speaks of is Clone? (not 100% sure of that)
If you make a bunch of clones when your young or simply preserve some of your youthful flesh somehow (Lots of ways to do this, but not the point). Then when you're powerrful enough you clone said flesh and preserve the clones (like statis or the appropriate plane/demiplane).
WHen you die and immediately get transererd to your youthful clone would you not have your same mind in a youthful version of yourself?
Could you simply repeat the process or prepare a crap ton of young clones?
Security of said clones is not the issue here. There are numerous ways to do that, but woudl it work that way?
For high level casters it seems like a much more elegant way to live forever, or at least until you can learn the immortality discovery.
BUT, you could use the spell that creates a second lifeless body of yourself at a younger age (lets say 30), and then when you die your soul will transfer to that empty vessel and you can start again. Just make sure to keep creating secondary bodies.Clone, yes. But wasn't there a designer statement somewhere that this would not work, for some reason? Something along the line that the clone body, when occupied, will be the same age as when you died. If it does work, I guess you can use Gentle Repose to keep the replacement body from decomposing. As long as preserving them doesn't also make them age.
Concerning Pharasma denying reincarnation/ressurrection before your soul has reached her court - are there any references to this actually having happened?
Concerning Pharasma denying reincarnation/ressurrection before your soul has reached her court - are there any references to this actually having happened?Clone, yes. But wasn't there a designer statement somewhere that this would not work, for some reason? Something along the line that the clone body, when occupied, will be the same age as when you died. If it does work, I guess you can use Gentle Repose to keep the replacement body from decomposing. As long as preserving them doesn't also make them age.
BUT, you could use the spell that creates a second lifeless body of yourself at a younger age (lets say 30), and then when you die your soul will transfer to that empty vessel and you can start again. Just make sure to keep creating secondary bodies.
Not that I'm aware of, but she's the goddess of the afterlife. It's not an unreaonable assummption.
I think people would rather avoid dying entirely rather than having to go through the business over and over again. Especially when you have rock solid proof of an afterlife (you can visit it - doesn't get more proven than that). Getting old and decrepit and finally dying SUCKS. Why would you want to put yourself through it over and over again, probably in strange new bodies? I'd expect after the first few go-arounds the person in question would say "OK, I've had enough, let's try the afterlife."
Evil types, of course, will want to avoid the afterlife at all costs (b/c their afterlife sucks). That's why they bail into Lichdom/Vampirism/Whatnot. It doesn't require the support structure that chain Reincarnations does. A group of LE witches could probably manage it, but I'd still expect a lot of changes in the roster over time as power struggles happen. You only need 2 to carry the scheme forward indefinitely, more people provides extra redundancy but also a lot more extra drama.
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Concerning Pharasma denying reincarnation/ressurrection before your soul has reached her court - are there any references to this actually having happened?
From what James Jacobs said, you reach Pharasma court immediately, but you aren't judged immediately. The time between reaching the court and being judged can vary from 0 to practically infinite, depending on Pharasma will.
I think people would rather avoid dying entirely rather than having to go through the business over and over again. Especially when you have rock solid proof of an afterlife (you can visit it - doesn't get more proven than that). Getting old and decrepit and finally dying SUCKS. Why would you want to put yourself through it over and over again, probably in strange new bodies? I'd expect after the first few go-arounds the person in question would say "OK, I've had enough, let's try the afterlife."
Do note, however, that even the good afterlives have you turn into a 2HD outsider with "fragmentary memories" of your former life. You will never again grow significantly in knowledge or power, unless you transform into an Archon or something. You will never again contribute to improving the world on which you were born, or the lives of your family or friends. Then again, it is bountiful and safe, so I can see how most people indeed would choose the afterlife rather than the mortal lives they led...
From what James Jacobs said, you reach Pharasma court immediately, but you aren't judged immediately. The time between reaching the court and being judged can vary from 0 to practically infinite, depending on Pharasma will.
On the other hand, there are statements in the Great Beyond book that there is a trail of dead mortal souls moving through the Astral Plane towards the Boneyards, subject to occasional predation from Night Hags, but it wouldn't be the first case where there were seeming inconsistencies. Could you help me find the post/text you are referring to?
A group of LE witches could probably manage it
Or a single Wizard with Limited Wish and Contingency in his book.
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Level 20 "Monk of the four winds"?
Immortality (Su): At 20th level, a monk of the four winds no longer ages. He remains in his current age category forever. Even if the monk comes to a violent end, he spontaneously reincarnates (as the spell) 24 hours later in a place of his choosing within 20 miles of the place he died. The monk must have visited the place in which he returns back to life at least once. This ability replaces perfect self.
Just found an example in the River Kingdom book - apparently one of the rulers have been doing this for a long time. Precisely the problems you mention seems to be catching up to him, though. Thanks!
As you said, there is that one npc in the River Kingdoms that uses this method of prolonging life. I also have a high-level npc witch in my homebrew River Kingdoms campaign that has prolonged her life using reincarnate after I read about the published npc who did. Venerable casters in powerful reincarnated forms make for some fun npc's. *grin*
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(Helic did say this) I think people would rather avoid dying entirely rather than having to go through the business over and over again. Especially when you have rock solid proof of an afterlife (you can visit it - doesn't get more proven than that). Getting old and decrepit and finally dying SUCKS. Why would you want to put yourself through it over and over again, probably in strange new bodies? I'd expect after the first few go-arounds the person in question would say "OK, I've had enough, let's try the afterlife."Do note, however, that even the good afterlives have you turn into a 2HD outsider with "fragmentary memories" of your former life. You will never again grow significantly in knowledge or power, unless you transform into an Archon or something. You will never again contribute to improving the world on which you were born, or the lives of your family or friends. Then again, it is bountiful and safe, so I can see how most people indeed would choose the afterlife rather than the mortal lives they led...
From what James Jacobs said, you reach Pharasma court immediately, but you aren't judged immediately. The time between reaching the court and being judged can vary from 0 to practically infinite, depending on Pharasma will.On the other hand, there are statements in the Great Beyond book that there is a trail of dead mortal souls moving through the Astral Plane towards the Boneyards, subject to occasional predation from Night Hags, but it wouldn't be the first case where there were seeming inconsistencies. Could you help me find the post/text you are referring to?
No mortal spell can bypass Pharasma's judgement and restore to life someone who's already been judged in the Boneyard. In order to restore someone to life who's been judged, you basically have to go to the Boneyard and plead your case directly to Pharasma, or you have to go track down whatever fate befell that judged soul, find a way to make it remember its life, and then drag it back to life. Like in all the myths.
Spells that create undead do sort of bypass Pharasma's judgement... but Classic Horrors certainly overstated things. You can't completely rob Pharasma of a soul to judge by casting animate dead on a body, but that act certainly violates the body and annoys Pharasma. Even if a soul's been judged and has moved on to its reward/punishment, if it's body's still around you can still animate it if you want.
The actual TIMING of how long it takes Pharasma to judge a soul that's died is the question, and fortunately, since her palace in the Boneyard is both a place where time stands still and time is infinitely fast (you can do that in crazy outer planar regions), the assumption is that whenever a mortal raises someone from the dead via WHATEVER method, that soul hasn't been judged yet. Once no mortal can or does resurrect that body, the soul has been judged.
This gives GMs a way to prevent the PCs from resurrecting NPCs he doesn't want brought back, for one thing, and also explains why powerful NPCs aren't always resurrected. In most cases, Pharasma judges a soul in an amount of time that feels pretty quick, so actual resurrections are actually quite rare.
The thing that makes them feel more common is the fact that when it comes to a PC, the PLAYER gets to determine if his character's soul has been judged when he decides if he wants the character to come back from death. If he decides he doesn't, that means Pharasma's judged the character and that's that. If he decides he DOES, then that means that his soul hasn't yet been judged and he comes back normally.
Finally, spells like Malediction and Hellfire Ray that do damn souls to Hell (such as trap the soul) do bypass Pharasma as well. She hates that. The spell is powerful, and basically forces the soul to bypass going to the Boneyard. It does NOT force Pharasma to send it there; if she got to the soul before it went to Hell, it does not go to hell but goes to the Boneyard as normal (which is what happens if someone is struck by an effect like this and resists the spell but dies from the effects or collateral damage anyway).
It is here. The whole thread is interesting at it speak about "Spells that bypass Pharasma's judgement".
In another post, I don't recall if in the linked thread or another, he speak about Aroden soul and how Pharasma judged him immediately after his death. Probably to avoid problems with attempt to resurrect him.
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Level 20 "Monk of the four winds"?
Immortality (Su): At 20th level, a monk of the four winds no longer ages. He remains in his current age category forever. Even if the monk comes to a violent end, he spontaneously reincarnates (as the spell) 24 hours later in a place of his choosing within 20 miles of the place he died. The monk must have visited the place in which he returns back to life at least once. This ability replaces perfect self.
Final Revelation: Upon achieving 20th level, your rapport with the heavens grants you perfect harmony with the universe. You receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier. You automatically stabilize if you are below 0 hit points, are immune to fear effects, and automatically confirm all critical hits. Should you die, you are reborn 3 days later in the form of a star child, who matures over the course of 7 days (treat as the reincarnate spell).
I am a bit unclear what a star child is, to be honest.
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Final Revelation: Upon achieving 20th level, your rapport with the heavens grants you perfect harmony with the universe. You receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier. You automatically stabilize if you are below 0 hit points, are immune to fear effects, and automatically confirm all critical hits. Should you die, you are reborn 3 days later in the form of a star child, who matures over the course of 7 days (treat as the reincarnate spell).I am a bit unclear what a star child is, to be honest.
I too have wondered that.
Maybe it is a type of a Shining Child....
(Helic did say this)
Ah, sorry. : (
I am a bit unclear what a star child is, to be honest.
The FAQ mentioned this, IIRC. It's just intended to be effectively regular reincarnation.
It is here. The whole thread is interesting at it speak about "Spells that bypass Pharasma's judgement".
In another post, I don't recall if in the linked thread or another, he speak about Aroden soul and how Pharasma judged him immediately after his death. Probably to avoid problems with attempt to resurrect him.
Ah, thank you! The thread only mentions that waiting time in the Boneyard is highly variable, though. Others in the thread references the journey to get there, and Jacobs further implies that Pharasma is unlikely to change queue positions for anyone while there. As such, regardless if an exception was made for Aroden, I would suspect that death followed by immediate reincarnation, such as through a contingency, likely means the soul never has time to get to the Boneyard at all, and as such, Pharasma would have to basically go out and see to it herself in order to prevent this scheme, not just tweak the existing machinery. Perhaps.
Final Revelation: Upon achieving 20th level, your rapport with the heavens grants you perfect harmony with the universe. You receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier. You automatically stabilize if you are below 0 hit points, are immune to fear effects, and automatically confirm all critical hits. Should you die, you are reborn 3 days later in the form of a star child, who matures over the course of 7 days (treat as the reincarnate spell).I am a bit unclear what a star child is, to be honest.
I too have wondered that.
Maybe it is a type of a Shining Child....
Anything on the reincarnate spell table maybe?
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Anything on the reincarnate spell table maybe?
Final Revelation: Upon achieving 20th level, your rapport with the heavens grants you perfect harmony with the universe. You receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier. You automatically stabilize if you are below 0 hit points, are immune to fear effects, and automatically confirm all critical hits. Should you die, you are reborn 3 days later in the form of a star child, who matures over the course of 7 days (treat as the reincarnate spell).I am a bit unclear what a star child is, to be honest.
I too have wondered that.
Maybe it is a type of a Shining Child....
That is what I would do in game at least. But the wording seems to point to as something specific. I think that I would be temped to make a race to go with it for flavor..
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Level 20 "Monk of the four winds"?
Immortality (Su): At 20th level, a monk of the four winds no longer ages. He remains in his current age category forever. Even if the monk comes to a violent end, he spontaneously reincarnates (as the spell) 24 hours later in a place of his choosing within 20 miles of the place he died. The monk must have visited the place in which he returns back to life at least once. This ability replaces perfect self.Final Revelation: Upon achieving 20th level, your rapport with the heavens grants you perfect harmony with the universe. You receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier. You automatically stabilize if you are below 0 hit points, are immune to fear effects, and automatically confirm all critical hits. Should you die, you are reborn 3 days later in the form of a star child, who matures over the course of 7 days (treat as the reincarnate spell).I am a bit unclear what a star child is, to be honest.
For those curious, the dev statement is here.
Correct. "Star child" is merely a flavorful way of saying "A reincarnated oracle." And an easter egg to 2001, I suppose.
A group of LE witches could probably manage itOr a single Wizard with Limited Wish and Contingency in his book.
Err...how? Contingency can't store a spell higher than 6th level. Limited Wish is 7th level, even if it's duplicating Reincarnation (a 4th level Druid spell) - the spell description is clear that it's always treated as a 7th level spell, given that the DC and Spell Penetration are treated as if it was a 7th level spell.
Do note, however, that even the good afterlives have you turn into a 2HD outsider with "fragmentary memories" of your former life. You will never again grow significantly in knowledge or power, unless you transform into an Archon or something. You will never again contribute to improving the world on which you were born, or the lives of your family or friends. Then again, it is bountiful and safe, so I can see how most people indeed would choose the afterlife rather than the mortal lives they led...
Unless you're exceptionally driven, there's little reason to go through life over and over again. Want to watch your children grow old and die? How about their children too? Immortality schemes tend to be difficult to extend across large groups (costs mount). Being "Immortal" would require a radical shift in people's thinking and worldview - if just to cope with the unique stresses. It's even worse with reincarnating - you get to deal with a whole new body, probably not of your previous species, every time.
For example, a Druid who reincarnates might leave behind everything from his former life. His children? His friends? He might no longer view them as such - they are from a 'previous' lifetime. He remembers the 'majority' of his previous life, sure, but does that mean that all the emotional connections remain? And how do your friends and family respond? Your Human brother is now a Kobold. A lot of people won't be able to get over that. Even if you luck out and get reincarnated as the same race, you don't have the same appearance. These relationships may NEVER be the same.
Unless you have access to Wish/Miracle as well, of course. But that's 9th level magic, not 4th level (Reincarnate) - a lot less common.
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I had an idea for a pair of NPC Druids using this scheme-- they were husband and wife, and whenever one of them died, the other would reincarnate them. I suppose if you had that strong of an emotional bond to someone, you'd want to stay with them through lifetime after lifetime, regardless of the body they inhabited. The world would change pretty drastically around them, but they'd act as each others' anchors to this world.
For example, a Druid who reincarnates might leave behind everything from his former life. His children? His friends? He might no longer view them as such - they are from a 'previous' lifetime. He remembers the 'majority' of his previous life, sure, but does that mean that all the emotional connections remain? And how do your friends and family respond? Your Human brother is now a Kobold. A lot of people won't be able to get over that. Even if you luck out and get reincarnated as the same race, you don't have the same appearance. These relationships may NEVER be the same.
Meh, not as big a deal as you think. Last time I reincarnated I came back as a kobold and everyone took it as a matter of course. In fact, I just reincarnated this past weekend and I ended up as an elf. It's really weird being tall...
Unless you're exceptionally driven, there's little reason to go through life over and over again. Want to watch your children grow old and die? How about their children too? Immortality schemes tend to be difficult to extend across large groups (costs mount). Being "Immortal" would require a radical shift in people's thinking and worldview - if just to cope with the unique stresses. It's even worse with reincarnating - you get to deal with a whole new body, probably not of your previous species, every time.
For example, a Druid who reincarnates might leave behind everything from his former life. His children? His friends? He might no longer view them as such - they are from a 'previous' lifetime. He remembers the 'majority' of his previous life, sure, but does that mean that all the emotional connections remain? And how do your friends and family respond? Your Human brother is now a Kobold. A lot of people won't be able to get over that. Even if you luck out and get reincarnated as the same race, you don't have the same appearance. These relationships may NEVER be the same.
I hadn't noted the 'majority of previous life' formulation. I can see how that could be interpreted as making for subtle but notable emotional changes in some cases. Certainly, a mundane citizen of Golarion who lived a normal life but was rich enough to pay for reincarnation would have problems with these factors. I guess I was mainly thinking of mid- to high-level spellcasters, who will be living rather strange lives already; talking to demons and spirits regularly, changing shape, reading thoughts and similar will likely have estranged you from most of normal society anyway.
Once you have already lived beyond a normal lifespan, possibly including a body shift (where I imagine many will use illusions or shapechanging magic to try to hold on to a previous conception of themselves), you will probably have found less mundane goals and ambitions or chosen to die already. Those who go that far might well prefer to go on for yet another round rather than to end it. Or not. I guess I agree then, you will be exceptionally driven, because if you were not, you wouldn't have gone that far anyway.
Technically, you could create a model society in which no-one dies permanently and eventually would get used to their fellow members wearing different bodies over time, as well as emotional changes associated with the transition phases. But as you say, mounting costs.
Plenty of class features to do it though -- for example the reincarnated druid gets a free reincarnate a week.
Technically, you could create a model society in which no-one dies permanently and eventually would get used to their fellow members wearing different bodies over time, as well as emotional changes associated with the transition phases. But as you say, mounting costs.
That society, viewed from the outside, would probably be considered insane. It would also probably consider bodies to be fairly disposable, now that I think of it - so long as you can afford to Reincarnate, why bother growing old at all? Suicide at the end of, say, middle age and get your fresh new body early.
Technically, you could create a model society in which no-one dies permanently and eventually would get used to their fellow members wearing different bodies over time, as well as emotional changes associated with the transition phases. But as you say, mounting costs.That society, viewed from the outside, would probably be considered insane. It would also probably consider bodies to be fairly disposable, now that I think of it - so long as you can afford to Reincarnate, why bother growing old at all? Suicide at the end of, say, middle age and get your fresh new body early.
I imagine it would look a bit like the first world suggestions from the back of book six of Kingmaker crossed with Galt and Andoran.
That society, viewed from the outside, would probably be considered insane. It would also probably consider bodies to be fairly disposable, now that I think of it - so long as you can afford to Reincarnate, why bother growing old at all? Suicide at the end of, say, middle age and get your fresh new body early.
Yes, I agree.
I imagine it would look a bit like the first world suggestions from the back of book six of Kingmaker crossed with Galt and Andoran.
True. If the druidic factor was large enough... maybe the society in question would eventually even just be absorbed into the First World, with its inhabitants becoming fey creatures. Kind of the reverse operation to how gnomes came to Golarion.
The problem with killing yourself to reincarnate would be its a crap shoot. Every time you die, even for a brief moment you go to the line. After a while she'll decide you need taken care of right freaking.You will be judged and the spell would no longer work.
Evey thing dies and everyone is judged, even gods.
The problem with killing yourself to reincarnate would be its a crap shoot. Every time you die, even for a brief moment you go to the line. After a while she'll decide you need taken care of right freaking.You will be judged and the spell would no longer work.
Evey thing dies and everyone is judged, even gods.
Golarion might well work this way, but I am not entirely convinced yet by what I've read of designer statements and sourcebooks that it actually works this way. Both the trek across the astral plane before you get to the Boneyard and James Jacobs statement that Pharasma is unwilling to let someone bypass the line from recommendations on her clerics in the thread someone (you?) linked might imply otherwise. Aroden being absent and judged directly does speak in its favour though.
Even if it does not work that way, it is not a common tactic. High level casters are not common. You would need at lest a 7th level druid, not all that common, who is both willing to cast the spell and you trust with your life 100%.
People coming back to life is not all that common, which is why the risian guard stand out so much.
Even if it does not work that way, it is not a common tactic. High level casters are not common. You would need at lest a 7th level druid, not all that common, who is both willing to cast the spell and you trust with your life 100%.
Technically, you could probably use suggestion to force a druid to do it, if your alignment permits. Suboptimal in the long run, though. A scroll of either contingency or reincarnation would help, and if you are a very high-level witch (and I imagine there are a number in Irrisen who do just this, since there are several NPCs there who are older than a human life would allow) you could Forced Reincarnate-hex yourself repeatedly until you end up in a form you are comfortable with, assuming you are jaded enough to subject yourself to this kind of experience (which does sound a little like something out of a shaman vision-quest, really).
People coming back to life is not all that common, which is why the risian guard stand out so much.
I agree completely.
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Technically, you could create a model society in which no-one dies permanently and eventually would get used to their fellow members wearing different bodies over time, as well as emotional changes associated with the transition phases. But as you say, mounting costs.That society, viewed from the outside, would probably be considered insane. It would also probably consider bodies to be fairly disposable, now that I think of it - so long as you can afford to Reincarnate, why bother growing old at all? Suicide at the end of, say, middle age and get your fresh new body early.
Don't Bite the Sun (1976) and Drinking Sapphire Wine (1977) by Tanith Lee.
They give a good depiction of that kind of society. only SF and not fantasy, so the new body is produced by "science" and not magic.
With so many countless ways of getting immortality, it's a wonder that Pharasma would bother at all with people doing it in some roundabout awkward way. Does she go after reincarnating (the archetype) druids, monks of the four winds, heavens oracles, wizards with the immortality discovery and alchemists? Can you draw a line between 'I used my mastery of my career to become immortal' and 'I used my clever use of my skills and spells to become immortal'? To me they are pretty much the same thing. One just gets more in-game detail about how it's performed.
Unless their method is lichdom. That's definitely bad.
Its not the immortal part, its the you keep dying and showing up in the line part. Its a crap shoot, time flows differently in her realm and you have no control over how long you are there. a few years or a few seconds it does not matter. Each time you go you have a chance of being judged and you can not dodge that forever.
Heavens oracles and reincarnating druids have to wait a few weeks in the line before being able to return. What about them?
What class or race you happen to be matters about as much as the color of your hair or how you died. It does not matter how long you are dead, only how long you are in the line. You can not control or know how long you will be on the other side as time moves unlike Golarion's time. You could be dead weeks and in the line decades or be dead decades and spend seconds in the line. You simply can not count on not being judged.It is always a crap shoot.
Every thing dies. No one even the gods can put it off forever.
Completely your opinion of course.
Every thing dies. No one even the gods can put it off forever.
Not to be polemic, but merely out of interest: has this actually been stated by the designers or in the sourcebooks? Clearly it is possible for a god to die, as gods have in fact died. But is it stated anywhere that, in the Pathfinder setting, it is impossible for a god not to eventually die?
Nope, not Opinion of mine. Something that has been stated about Golarion a few times. When no one is left to judge she will judge herself. Gods have died before In golarion, everything dies in time, a hundred years or a few million. Some gods are older then hunmanity or even elves , some will be here long after they are gone, but one thing never changes, even the stars die in time.
Nope, not Opinion of mine. Something that has been stated about Golarion a few times. When no one is left to judge she will judge herself. Gods have died before In golarion, everything dies in time, a hundred years or a few million. Some gods are older then hunmanity or even elves , some will be here long after they are gone, but one thing never changes, even the stars die in time.
Again, I am not necessarily doubting your words or disagreeing with you, but I want to understand. Could you guide me to where this has been stated by designers or in the published materials? I am sure any in-game documents from Pharasma's faithful will say exactly this, but has it been made clear elsewhere?
Mostly elsewhere. On the forms in topics like this, the history of Golarion is spread across so many books it is hard to keep track of what was stated in which book. I think the thread linked eailer in this thread may have some of that info. Mostly we have JJ's word for how things work on such topics and when it comes to golarion fluff, he is pretty much the law for now on it.
We do know some gods used to not be gods and some gods died. Aroden is not the first to die and will not be the last. We also know our lovely death goddess predates humans and is mostly inhuman no matter what form she happens to be wearing now.
It really does not effect the game at all, except at the speed of plot or when the Gm needs to have her step in and stop someone from coming back.
Edit: Mostly what you are asking was quoted in this thread with a link, it is the 18th post down.
Mostly elsewhere. On the forms in topics like this, the history of Golarion is spread across so many books it is hard to keep track of what was stated in which book. I think the thread linked eailer in this thread may have some of that info. Mostly we have JJ's word for how things work on such topics and when it comes to golarion fluff, he is pretty much the law for now on it.
We do know some gods used to not be gods and some gods died. Aroden is not the first to die and will not be the last. We also know our lovely death goddess predates humans and is mostly inhuman no matter what form she happens to be wearing now.
It really does not effect the game at all, except at the speed of plot or when the Gm needs to have her step in and stop someone from coming back.
I'll see if I can hunt up some links when I get time a bit later.
Thank you. Just to be clear, I am absolutely convinced that any given Golarion deity could be killed, in some way or another. From your previous post, it sounded as though you mean that there is official statement that, as a rule or fact of the setting, absolutely every being, deity or not, will eventually die, after enough time and calamities have passed. The alternative would be the case where, though all deities could potentially be killed, not every deity is guaranteed to die as time progresses.
EDIT: The most relevant statement concerning this in the thread in question (unless I found the wrong link) was this:
In other words, the less we make official about what happens to a soul after you die, the better. Keeping it vague and mysterious is good for the game. And keeping Pharasma from being 100% omnipotent when it comes to all things death/soul related is a great way to do so.
It is not a stated fact, but one she believes. She thinks she will judge herself once no one is left. She'll close up the shop, turn out the lights and that will be that. It is a "rule of fact" that when you die for you end up in the line. And time does not work the same in her realm so you are taking a chance you will be judged before you can be brought back.
Also Golarion takes place in a very realistic space.I can not recall if it is the same one earth is in, but there are space ships and stars and even stars burn out and die in time.
A note:
Although killing gods is out of the reach of mortals, they have killed each other before and things live out in the black that can both kill them and twist them.