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Mithral changes the effective weight class for armor for everything BUT proficiency. You still need the feat if you don't wanna eat the penalty.
Yes, and the penalty for nonproficiency with armor/shields is to add the item's ACP to your attack rolls (in addition to the usual skills, obviously).
Mithral Breastplate has an ACP of -1.
J.J. has the Armor Expert trait which reduces your ACP by 1.
So you're right, J.J. will have to eat that -0 penalty to his attacks. ;)
Mithral changes the effective weight class for armor for everything BUT proficiency. You still need the feat if you don't wanna eat the penalty.Yes, and the penalty for nonproficiency with armor/shields is to add the item's ACP to your attack rolls (in addition to the usual skills, obviously).
Mithral Breastplate has an ACP of -1.
J.J. has the Armor Expert trait which reduces your ACP by 1.
So you're right, J.J. will have to eat that -0 penalty to his attacks. ;)
Ah, well played.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So you're right, J.J. will have to eat that -0 penalty to his attacks. ;)Ah, well played.
Thanks. ;)
Now I just have to decide, upon attaining said armor, whether to ditch the buckler and fight two-handed for extra damage (I could probably have a +2 STR belt not long after) or keep it for higher AC (and two places to add enchantments).
Hm, AC or damage? Oh well, I've got a while to decide.
*Stuff*
sound good? Match him against Twee if you want.
Okey dokey. Here is Eewt. He is a bit of a weird, sub-optimal build, but that was because I was doing my best to build him with your exact skill set.
Stats: Twee's
HP: One higher than Twee's. His higher HD lets him transfer favored class bonus to extra skillpoints and keep the same hitpoints.
Saves: +4/+10/+3. Ranger's have a superior Fortitude, which will be nice for Eewt with his low CON.
Defense, Initiative, all that: Identical.
Feats:Switch "Point Blank Shot" and "Precise Shot" for "Deadly Aim" and "Weapon Finesse." As a Ranger, Eewt doesn't need to pay his feat taxes. He also grabs "Rapid Shot" as his Ranger bonus feat. He also is proficient in shields, medium armor, and martial weapons (unlike Twee).
Skills:Close to identical. He doesn't have Acrobatics or Sleight of Hand, so his bonuses to those are only +11 and +7(or+9) respectively. He is also just as good at document forgery and disguise as Twee, because neither put any skill ranks there.
He is, however, 4 skill points behind. But here is the kicker. You gave up Trapfinding for the Sniper Archetype. So his +2 to Disable Device and Perception of traps covers the difference. Also, Eewt can disarm magical traps, unlike Twee.
He also has a Favored Enemy and a Favored Community. Against or in them, many of his vital skills (Stealth, Perception, Knowledge(Local)) are going to be +2 higher than Twee.
Combat:
MW Longbow +11, 1d8+2 (or 2d6+2) (20/x3)
Deadly Aim -2/+4, Rapid Shot -2
Elven Curveblade +10, 1d10+3 (18-20/x2)
Spiked Gauntlet +10, 1d4+2 (20/x2)
As a Sniper, Eewt has more options than Twee. Twee needs to be within 30' to use his wand of scorching ray-sneak attack, or 40' for a traditional sneak attack. With the wand, his average sneak attack damage is 21, while using his bow it is 13.5. Without, we are looking at 14 and 6.5.
Eewt probably isn't going to mimic his tactics. Instead of a Wand of Scorching Ray, he'll use the (4500gp) to buy a Wand of Gravity Bow (which he can use without UMD, unlike Twee), and 3750gp worth of puppies. When he wants to snipe someone, he can do it out to 100' without penalty, and up to 10 range increments with one. He mix and match his Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim for anywhere from one 2d6+2 arrow at an extra +1 to attack (in relation to Twee), to two arrows at 2d6+6 at -3 to attack. Most importantly, he can do these all day (or at least the 1 minute before he needs to recharge his Gravity Bow spell). And, even after adjusting for the -3 to attack, his deadly/rapid shots are going to dish out an average of 22.1 damage. More than your a sneak attack scorching ray (though the ray does have the advantage of being touch) at 3 times the range and at a cost of 15gp (using the wand) or nothing (casts gravity bow himself) instead of 90gp.
This isn't even considering Favored Enemy bonuses. FE (Human) comes up a ridiculous amount, and would send his damage even higher.
Whew. All that made me tired. Anyway, in melee we are looking at a similar deal. He has +1 to attack, and can use an elven curveblade thanks to his martial weapon proficiency. Later on, he will probably want power attack to take advantage of his higher BaB. Until then, he can cover any gaps with the fact he has a 1st level Animal Companion, for flanking or riding or whatever he wants. He could also trade 750gp of those Scorching Ray puppies for a wand of Lead Blades, but this is getting tiring and I think I've made my point as best I can.
So there you go. A random ranger who is as close to identical as I can make him. There are a few differences (you can detect traps at 10', he can disable magic traps), but they are pretty close. Except that Eewt can dish out more ranged damage, and doesn't need sneak attack to do it. He has an animal companion, Favored Enemy, Favored terrain, Ranger spells, and free Manyshot or Improved Precise Shot coming up in a couple levels (without prerequisites). He is also equal in all but two skills, has substantially better Fortitude, and will be a more varied melee combatant (with the help of his companion, his fancier weapon, and the lack of need for sneak attack), and likely more powerful if I actually ran the numbers.
So, on your list, he passes 1,2, and 4 easily. 5 and 6 are very close, and can be made equal with a 1 level dip if it is that important. With that orc guard at 3, he is looking at 2d8+3 (12 damage), as opposed to your 1d4+2d6+2 (11.5). With the second set, he is equal at everything because you didn't put any ranks Disguise, Linguistics or Diplomacy either. At Knowledge(Local) he is equal, except in his favored community where he wins by +2.
So do I pass?
EDIT: Aw, while writing this I missed talk about trap TPKs. That would probably have been a more fun conversation that half an hour of math and typing.
So you're right, J.J. will have to eat that -0 penalty to his attacks. ;)Ah, well played.
Thanks. ;)
Now I just have to decide, upon attaining said armor, whether to ditch the buckler and fight two-handed for extra damage (I could probably have a +2 STR belt not long after) or keep it for higher AC (and two places to add enchantments).
Hm, AC or damage? Oh well, I've got a while to decide.
You can use a buckler while 2-handing by taking a -1 to hit, and even with the penalty you end up with a net positive to your DPR (5.4 without and 5.61 with).
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You can use a buckler while 2-handing by taking a -1 to hit, and even with the penalty you end up with a net positive to your DPR (5.4 without and 5.61 with).So you're right, J.J. will have to eat that -0 penalty to his attacks. ;)Ah, well played.
Thanks. ;)
Now I just have to decide, upon attaining said armor, whether to ditch the buckler and fight two-handed for extra damage (I could probably have a +2 STR belt not long after) or keep it for higher AC (and two places to add enchantments).
Hm, AC or damage? Oh well, I've got a while to decide.
Well, any round where I do that, I lose the buckler's bonus to my AC anyway. So I probably want to just do one or the other.
Well, any round where I do that, I lose the buckler's bonus to my AC anyway. So I probably want to just do one or the other.You can use a buckler while 2-handing by taking a -1 to hit, and even with the penalty you end up with a net positive to your DPR (5.4 without and 5.61 with).So you're right, J.J. will have to eat that -0 penalty to his attacks. ;)Ah, well played.
Thanks. ;)
Now I just have to decide, upon attaining said armor, whether to ditch the buckler and fight two-handed for extra damage (I could probably have a +2 STR belt not long after) or keep it for higher AC (and two places to add enchantments).
Hm, AC or damage? Oh well, I've got a while to decide.
I don't know. You're already using a weapon that doesn't tie you down to either 1 or 2-handing, and having the option to choose between higher AC or higher damage on any given round adds a lot to in-combat versatility.
hay Mort - good to see the ideas. Yeah, I missed a few points, lets check some things.
I kind of wanted to see a character progression, as Twee grew from decisions I made at each level (some kind of short sighted). But we'll just check 5th level.
Look, I'm not writing up 5 stat blocks for you. It isn't some complicated, weird progression that would require that. He probably grabbed Weapon Finesse at 1, Rapid Shot at 2 with his bonus feat, Deadly Aim at 3, and Improved Initiative at 5 (not that he needs it. Getting the drop is much less important for him since he doesn't rely on sneak attack). Somewhere in there toss that Wizard level, it really doesn't matter where.
Most DM's give him an extra roll for the Trapspotter - so maybe the 10' range doesn't help me (I have the DM roll those, trying not to metagame it, and I know some Judges never roll those - they forget I have it).
I forgot the range on the Scorching Ray (just bought it and kind of looking forward to using it - haven't used it yet). Though with the wand, his average sneak attack damage is 22 (one more for the Point Blank Shot), while using his bow it is 14.5 (PBS again). At 1st level it was 11.
At level 1 Eewt's ranged damage was probably 6.5 (assuming the mystery +2 damage is from a composite longbow), but with an extra +1 to the attack. By level 2, he was getting off two shots at -1 (13 damage at -1, the same if not superior). If I was concerned about low-level ranged damage I could move Deadly Aim lower, but I figured Weapon Finesse was more important (Twee isn't going to be hitting anything until he gets it at level 4).
I didn't take the Gravity Bow wand for several reasons. 1) it burns a round to use it, and often I don't have the prep round. (I am looking at adding both a wand of it and one of True strike though). 2) I wanted that Touch attack roll - as a sort of snap shot. Get's me two attacks before the Mooks go (most of the time) 3) I wanted an energy damage attack for things my bow can't hurt. 4) I actually looked at picking up 6 1st level wands of different things - but my son used the quote "this is my boom stick" and it sort of ... called to me. 5) I can prepare and cast the spell myself. Not that I do, I normally prepare Vanish to get my Sneak in later rounds.
It lasts for a full minute a use. If he is sniping, it would be an absolute given. Your scorching ray may give you a snap shot, but Eewt has gotten 4 arrows off by the time you have fired twice. He is also benefiting more from Foresight, as he can use it on the second roll if the first is good. If all you want is energy damage, the 4500gp from the wand is more than half way to a non-consumable +1 Flaming Longbow.
I actually forgot Gravity Bow was on the Wizard list (I confused it with Lead Blades). On the point of vanish, however, your average damage will drop like a rock. 1 round to use the wand, one round to attack, and using up 15gp. Meanwhile Eewt has attacked twice at no cost. Also, as you get extra attacks from BaB and haste, it will become an even worse choice. Vanishing Trick and Hidden Blade would help, but that is getting into Ninja territory.
I looked at Deadly aim rather than Point Blank Shot. A lot. but most of my combats seem to be at less than 30' and I wanted to +2 to hit more than the +1 on damage. (PBS +1/+1, DM -1/+2). I may still take it later. Oh, and Percise Shot vs. Rapid Shot is kind of funny. Every one of my characters before this has taken RS rather than P.S. - Twee is the first to reverse this. I can Percise in a surprize round, I can't Rapid Shot in the surprize round - and again I don't want to minus to hit.
I was concentrating on sniping, because in a real fight ranged sneak attack becomes useless after the first round. Then, you are plinking. The Ranger, meanwhile, will be doing far more damage at the cost of an attack one lower than yours (which I believe, mathematically, is going to be worth if you hit on 18 or lower). He can do it in a fight, when sniping, at 30' or 100'. He can taken Point Blank shot and Precise shot if he wants to go full archery, but not needing them is one of the biggest advantages of being a ranger.
These are really all nitpicks, though. The fact is, he passed most of the tests you posted. When he gets to use his other goodies (Favored enemy and community, animal companion, etc) he surpass. He is more versatile, doesn't rely on flanking or surprise to do damage, and gets better saves to boot. And this is with a build designed for pure mimicry, not one that emphasizes the Ranger's strong suites. If built for specific tasks rather than mimicking your stats and abilities, he (or a similar Archaeologist, or Vivisectionist, or whatever) is simply going to be better at roguery. And that is not right.
Sorry - I appear to be bordering on upsetting people. This was not my intention. Was just trying to build a better rogue under the current rules. I'll go away now, and leave you all to your thread.
I don't think anyone is particularly upset. I mean, I disagree with you, but this isn't red-faced rageposting. You can tell when we get to that point, my spelling will get terrible and I'll use WAY more CAPITALS for ANGRY EMPHASIS. I might also accuse you of being a communist.
On Twee vs. Eewt, I'll be happy to give you a tie. The point is, I really shouldn't have been able to get that close to an exact replica of your ability set with another class, with other ancillary abilities to boot. And if I'd gone for optimization instead of mimicry, say in sniping, sneaking, and guard-murdering, he would have been even stronger. A Rogue sniper, with an Archetype CALLED Sniper, shouldn't be so easily matched at sniping.
Oh, and for the record, they have equal skill ranks. Eewt has a d10, so moves his favored class bonus to skill ranks from hitpoints, making them 7 vs. 8. He can have level / 2 less ranks in Perception and Disable Device while still being as good of a trap spotter and disabler thanks to Trapfinding, which equals the remaining 1 skill point a level difference.
Something that is still missing to me was the old 3.5 "Skill Tricks", which was in my opinion, just AWESOME.
While I agree with your sentiments (and sorry for derailing your thread, by the way), but I don't think skill tricks will actually help. Because of the removal of cross-class skills, the Rogue's skill list doesn't mean as much as it once did. At most, you need a 1 level dip to have full access to everything, and can then be a 6 skill point class with other, stronger abilities. They'll still be able to gobble up most of the good skill tricks, and leave the Rogue underloved once more.
I think the road ahead really lies with Talent design. Less weird restrictions, 1/day limits or accidentally underpowered choices (Powerful Sneak, we meet again). Based on the power level of ninja tricks, I think we might just have to wait for the theoretical "Ultimate Skill" and a new batch of ninja-equivalent powers to put these arguments to rest.
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I'm a Rogue.
My role is to be master of the streets of our town. I'm a con artist and swindler extraordinaire; a role which nobody else in my band is equipped or trained to handle. Would a Bard be able to do this? Yes, but who cares? The question is not "Is there something a Rogue is best at?" The question is what role does a Rogue fill.
Go ahead, click my name, see how I'm built.
All our exploits are in and around "The Menzo" - urban, intrigue, dungeon crawling, chaotic evil society. My companions are:
The beauty of this group is that half of us are perceptive and stealthy, and the rest are spellcasters. Li'Neer is by far our best warrior (except the late Nyloth ~spits~), but Kuruk and I can tear apart a single foe in record time, and my build allows me to tank in a pinch quite successfully by utilizing defensive options. I have wands, allowing me to play the role of backup healer (CLW) or spellcaster (Silent Image, Fireball, Obscuring Mist).
So again, would a Bard be able to do all I do and more? Yes, but nobody cares. I can still do it, do it well, and enjoy screwing with the minds and taking the lives of anyone who opposes us. That, I think, is more than enough.
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I think the road ahead really lies with Talent design. Less weird restrictions, 1/day limits or accidentally underpowered choices (Powerful Sneak, we meet again). Based on the power level of ninja tricks, I think we might just have to wait for the theoretical "Ultimate Skill" and a new batch of ninja-equivalent powers to put these arguments to rest.
If I'm correctly interpreting you to mean that ninja tricks are generally more powerful than rogue talents, then I would point you to this:
Ninja Trick (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool. A rogue can pick this talent more than once.
Any non-ninja rogue can pick any ninja trick, basically. That's why my rogue, J.J., has a 20ft climb speed (which means a +8 to Climb and can always take 10, even while threatened/distracted).
Things like that, which grant abilities that can't be duplicated by feats, are some of the rogue's greatest strengths. Maybe there aren't enough good ones, but there are definitely some gems in there. Keep in mind that there's also a feat to take an extra talent, so you can load up fast.
I'm planning on giving J.J. some of these talents as he levels:
A rogue with this talent rolls twice when making Swim checks and takes the better result. If she already rolls twice while making a Swim check because of another ability or effect, she gains a +2 insight bonus on both of those rolls instead. If the rogue is under the effect of a spell or ability that forces her to roll two dice and take the worse result, she only needs to roll 1d20 while making Swim checks.
When making jump checks, the rogue is always considered to have a running start. Also, when the rogue deliberately falls, a DC 15 Acrobatics check allows her to ignore the first 20 feet fallen, instead of the first 10 feet.
Once per day, a rogue with this talent can roll two dice while making an Acrobatics check, and take the better result. She must choose to use this talent before making the Acrobatics check. A rogue can use this ability one additional time per day for every 5 rogue levels she possesses.
This ability allows a rogue to move along narrow surfaces at full speed using the Acrobatics skill without penalty. In addition, a rogue with this talent is not flat-footed when using Acrobatics to move along narrow surfaces.
While prone, a rogue with this ability can move at half speed. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. A rogue with this talent can take a 5-foot step while crawling.
A rogue with this ability can stand up from a prone position as a free action. This still provokes attacks of opportunity for standing up while threatened by a foe.
If I'm correctly interpreting you to mean that ninja tricks are generally more powerful than rogue talents, then I would point you to this:
Ninja Trick (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list.The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool. A rogue can pick this talent more than once.
Emphasis mine. A large number of the best tricks (Vanishing, Forgotten Trick, Bombs if you have built for it) require ki, which the Ninja will have a healthy supply of. The Rogue would need to use a talent to get a ki pool, which doesn't increase, and can only be used naturally to get a +10' move for a turn (as opposed to ninjas, who can get a +20' move along with numerous other native choices).
That said, Wall Climber IS great. As is Pressure Points and a few other the other non-ki related tricks. But the others you mention... not so much. A ninja with any ki left naturally gets the first half of Expert Leaper, and the second half is going to save you 1d6 damage at best. Peerless Manuever is passable, though the low number of uses (and need to declare it ahead of it) limits it. Strong Stroke and Ledge Walker are the sort of things that are neat, but in a generic campaign will not come up often enough to really bring the Rogue up to snuff. There is a similar problem with Rogue Crawl, in that you probably aren't going to need it that much (especially if you also have Stand Up, which can at least be abused by an archer).
Roll some of them together, and we could have a conversation. There are five different abilities that let you roll two dice 1/day. This severely limits versatility, so why not just let them roll two dice for ANY skill check a few times day? Or better yet, a reroll? The same goes for Expert Leaper, Ledge Walker, and similar talents. On their own, they come up rarely and aren't worth your limited talent slots. All together, they would let a Rogue be an unsurpased Acrobat and still have room for other options. Extra Talent isn't really an option for this, since most Rogue builds are going to be feat starved already. Using up one resource you don't have enough of to get another resource you don't have enough of isn't going to solve the problem.
So, you pretty much have it right. I want more "gem" talents, and less over restricted rocks. Rogue's are not garbage, and it is not like they can't be built to be acceptable adventurers. They just need some extra help to be brought up to the level of everyone else.
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Strong Stroke and Ledge Walker are the sort of things that are neat, but in a generic campaign will not come up often enough to really bring the Rogue up to snuff.
I guess I should point out that I'm speaking from a PFS perspective (the character in question is a PFS character), and there are plenty of athletic-type challenges, both outside of and in the heat of combat. I've played one scenario (with J.J. even, though sadly before he hit level 2) where he had to chase a werewolf across a city, which involved no less than 15 skill checks, nearly all of which were athletic in nature (acrobatics, climb, swim, etc, with more than one of each of those). I've had pirates kick away the gangplank while 2 PCs are on the ship and 2 are on the dock and 1 is in the water. I've been in a room with a 20ft climb up a rock wall to the exit door, with an invisible creature indulging his bull-rush fetish every round. I've had to scale the outer wall of a cathedral, climb in the belltower, and then climb down the inside. I've been dragged to the bottom of a river by a crocodile. The list goes on.
So I'm not sure what constitutes "normal", but my experiences in PFS are what inspired J.J. in the first place. So who knows? Maybe the circumstances of PFS scenarios are skewed more in favor of rogues than the "typical" campaign and my comments on the subject are moot in other contexts. But in PFS, I think there are enough physical skill challenges/obstacles to make those sorts of rogue talents worthwhile.
So I'm not sure what constitutes "normal", but my experiences in PFS are what inspired J.J. in the first place. So who knows? Maybe the circumstances of PFS scenarios are skewed more in favor of rogues than the "typical" campaign and my comments on the subject are moot in other contexts. But in PFS, I think there are enough physical skill challenges/obstacles to make those sorts of rogue talents worthwhile.
I can't speak to PFS. I've mostly seen modules and APs. However, we can still analyze the talents. Ledge Walker, at its core, does two things. It lets you move at full speed on a narrow ledge without the normal -5 penalty (or is it +5DC? Whatever). It also lets you retain your dexterity bonus to AC when you do it. The only scenario you mentioned where this might come in to play was scaling the Cathedral. In that case, I'd ask "Was time a major factor?" If not, the circumstantial +5 is irrelevant. Were you attacked while climbing it? If not, then the dex to AC was irrelevant. Unless you are regularly attacked while moving at full speed along a ledge, I'd argue this talent is worth far less than even Skill Focus (Acrobatics) or a generic, combat related talent. This isn't going in to the fact that it will become less useful with time, since the DCs just don't get that high, or the fact that any of a dozen magic items or spells would completely circumvent the challenge.
I hope this illustrates what I am trying to get at. It isn't that physical challenges don't come up, it is that the chances of having the right talent for the right physical challenge is fairly small, and the bonus when you do have them is often insufficient or irrelevant. A Rogue doesn't have space for all of them, especially if they also want to be a respectable combatant. And if you don't have a talent for the job, you are no better than anyone else who also took ranks in "climb" (and your two extra skill points aren't enough to make up for this).
And, if you are in a campaign where Strong Stroke is going to come up constantly and be incredibly useful... the Archaeologist will just take it himself. Now you are equal again, until he decides to break out his spells, and luck, and knowledge, and...
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Well, I did list Ledge Walker as a "maybe". After reading your post, though, SF(Acro) does sound better. I might do that.
It also might be that I personally enjoy being the guy who, when a specific obstacle comes up that people aren't prepared for, steps up and says "Well, good thing I took [obscure talent/feat/magic item] so I can trivialize this entire challenge!" and then the whole party says "Why in the world would you get that?" and I can say "FOR THIS MOMENT!!!"
It's possible I overvalue that moment. ;)
It's also possible that the Archaeologist is waaaay too specific in its stepping on the toes of the rogue and should go die in a fire. >.>
Well, I did list Ledge Walker as a "maybe". After reading your post, though, SF(Acro) does sound better. I might do that.
This is the problem with so many talents. You look, think "Cool!" then notice the fine print and find it isn't actually a great option.
It also might be that I personally enjoy being the guy who, when a specific obstacle comes up that people aren't prepared for, steps up and says "Well, good thing I took [obscure talent/feat/magic item] so I can trivialize this entire challenge!" and then the whole party says "Why in the world would you get that?" and I can say "FOR THIS MOMENT!!!"
It's possible I overvalue that moment. ;)
There is absolutely no way you can overvalue that moment. I mean, it is obviously a source of great fun for you, and this is a game. Plus, it probably makes great stories.
It's also possible that the Archaeologist is waaaay too specific in its stepping on the toes of the rogue and should go die in a fire. >.>
I'll get the wood.
Remind me to reroll my rogue when i get the chance : / my group values fighting way to much and seems to like to poke fun at what i can't do opposed to the ranger/bard/cleric/paladin (though the cleric is always nice to my rogue, i respect that). Eh, I think I'll look into playing a battle cleric. just remind me not to play Rogues anymore; I might like the character concept, but every time i play in a group I get looked down upon by other players for doing so.
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Remind me to reroll my rogue when i get the chance : / my group values fighting way to much and seems to like to poke fun at what i can't do opposed to the ranger/bard/cleric/paladin (though the cleric is always nice to my rogue, i respect that). Eh, I think I'll look into playing a battle cleric. just remind me not to play Rogues anymore; I might like the character concept, but every time i play in a group I get looked down upon by other players for doing so.
Go Urban Ranger or Sandman/Archaeologist Bard. Urban Ranger is strictly the best of the three at combat, but the bards bring bardiness.
Yea, i was thinking of playing a regular ranger tbh. Our group tends to have an a$$ running in front of the rst of the group setting off traps and he somehow isn't. Was the Druid last game, Paladin this game, Cleric's summoned gorilla two games ago . . . really no need for trap-finding when that happens. And the number of penalties i get to stealth because the various DM's i've played like to limit what's "humanly possible" when stealthing just nerfs the whole sneaky idea of the rogue. I figure I'll just play a Cleric, since they seems to be always needed (for heals) and I can still pull off some crazy-good melee when i want to, not to mention how magic out-utilizes skills or crafting abilities.
I will just admit it and instead of playing another class and claiming its a rogue (tried it in this game with the Ninja, no go) then ima go caster.