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Explain how it is that AM knows the difference between a caster and some random schmuck. You've stated AM is raging all the time, so he can't use any INT-based skills, right? And how does AM see a caster when he can't even detect him? I'm more than willing to grant AM can one-shot a defenseless caster, but how is AM going to get the caster to that state? If the caster has no defenses up, he doesn't look like a caster; ergo, no RAGELANCEPOUNCE. If the caster has defenses up, AM can't find him; ergo, no RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
Explain how it is that AM knows the difference between a caster and some random schmuck. You've stated AM is raging all the time, so he can't use any INT-based skills, right? And how does AM see a caster when he can't even detect him? I'm more than willing to grant AM can one-shot a defenseless caster, but how is AM going to get the caster to that state? If the caster has no defenses up, he doesn't look like a caster; ergo, no RAGELANCEPOUNCE. If the caster has defenses up, AM can't find him; ergo, no RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
BARBARIAN RAGELANCEPOUNCE WHATEVER BARBARIAN ASSUME AM CASTY.
IF BARBARIAN HEAR COMPLAINING ABOUT CONTINGENCY AND READIED WALL AND HOW BARBARIAN AM COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC, AM DEFINITELY CASTY.
AM DEALING IN WORKS WHERE CASTYS AM METAGAMING ANYWAY, RIGHT? WHAT LITTLE MORE CRACKING ON FOURTH WALL.
Also, last I checked perception is a Wisdom based skill, not restricted by raging.
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Of course the goalposts moved. Castys changed the rules, and went from being unaware of his existence to randomly being aware that he existed and actively hated them.
I must, sadly, adapt to the times. I preferred the old days when you guys didn't randomly assume you're acutely aware of AM'S existence.
I mean, every last theory put forth with any merit here is based on foreknowledge and setting contingencies on a guy whom you do not have any way of knowing exists until you're dead.
EDIT: And you castys didn't even take catch off guard. It's so sad, being unproficient.
To be completely fair in these scenarios, many people have been assuming a DM v Player perspective, with either the DM (and by extension the BBEG) is either AM BARBARIAN or its attempted counter.
From the perspective of AM BARBARIAN being an NPC: the terrain choice is his, and the MOST any player might know before hand is some rumors about wizards and other spell casters mysteriously disappearing, and possibly finding their naked sundered corpses scattered about the planes. It is here, when the caster has a generic load-out, that no caster can single-handedly stop AM BARBARIAN, and would be lucky to escape with their lives.
From the perspective of AM BARBARIAN being a PC: the terrain choice may still be his, but the other circumstances of the encounter belong to the mage (provided they're investigating the mysterious caster disappearances, and divination has lead them here). Here it becomes unreasonable to have a specialized build for removing AM BARBARIAN, but perfectly logical to switch out spells & items, depending on how long the caster has observed AM BARBARIAN.
The perspective left out is that of a PvP situation, which is how the discussions are folding out. AM BARBARIAN and the caster are able to watch each other level, and see each others' tactics until one day some one pisses the other off and rather than settle it then and there they BOTH decide to go off and plot each others' destruction.
Also, last I checked perception is a Wisdom based skill, not restricted by raging.
Funny thing.
Did you know a knowledge check is a free action?
Free: See "something humanoid"
Free: End rage.
Free: Is that a casty? Y/N
Free: Fly into rage anyway.
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Also, last I checked perception is a Wisdom based skill, not restricted by raging.
Never said it was. But determining the difference between a caster and anyone else not wearing armor? Definitely needs some judgement. And if AM is, as he says, wandering around killing anything he thinks is a caster, he's going to be put down pretty damned quick.
Explain how it is that AM knows the difference between a caster and some random schmuck. You've stated AM is raging all the time, so he can't use any INT-based skills, right? And how does AM see a caster when he can't even detect him? I'm more than willing to grant AM can one-shot a defenseless caster, but how is AM going to get the caster to that state? If the caster has no defenses up, he doesn't look like a caster; ergo, no RAGELANCEPOUNCE. If the caster has defenses up, AM can't find him; ergo, no RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
Is BATTY BAT also raging if not he can use all of his Int based skills and tell am about it.
Also i feel really sorry for all the old guys in robes with walking sticks AM spots on his daily rounds.
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Also i feel really sorry for all the old guys in robes with walking sticks AM spots on his daily rounds.
"Your Majesty, the Queen has just been RAGELANCEPOUNCED!"
Well, dammit, Jenkins, I told her not to wander the castle grounds without her wimple. Call out the Special Division; I simply cannot let this pass unavenged."
Also i feel really sorry for all the old guys in robes with walking sticks AM spots on his daily rounds."Your Majesty, the Queen has just been RAGELANCEPOUNCED!"
Well, dammit, Jenkins, I told her not to wander the castle grounds without her wimple. Call out the Special Division; I simply cannot let this pass unavenged."
It time for AM's newest companions......
THE AM LEGAL DEFENSE SQUAD
Also i feel really sorry for all the old guys in robes with walking sticks AM spots on his daily rounds."Your Majesty, the Queen has just been RAGELANCEPOUNCED!"
Well, dammit, Jenkins, I told her not to wander the castle grounds without her wimple. Call out the Special Division; I simply cannot let this pass unavenged."
Reporting for duty good sir, since we have no eye witnesses or solid proof I move too dismiss, further I don't think I could actually get in touch with the defendant so he could attend the trial anyway, what with his tendency to fly at high speeds constantly without stopping.
...Step by step guide to killing AM BARBARIAN
1. Be a 20th level Alchemist with the Greater Alchemical Simulacrum, Doppleganger Simulacrum, Explosive Bomb, Tanglefoot bomb and philosopher's stone discoveries. Alternate Energy Type Discoveries are good too.2. Be minding your own business when AM BARBARIAN mistakes you for a casty and kills you.
3. Thank your lucky stars you were using a Doppleganger Simulacrum at the time, and plot revenge
4. Wait a 1 year or so, you don't want to rush this. Make 12 Philosopher's stones minus expenses garners you around 500,000 gold.
5. Make about 40 10th level copies of yourself using Greater Alchemical Simulacrum. You want to make sure that AM BARBARIAN knows who killed him.
6. Buy or make 40 Eyes of the Eagle, Boots of Speed, and Capes of the Mountebank, Masterwork Crossbows and 120 or so doses of Purple worm poison
7. Scry on the man of questionable heritage and or patronage using your shiny new crystal ball to find out where he is.
8. Use Delayed Consumption to give all your copies True Strike as an Immediate Action. With a duration of 20 days, this should be easy enough.
9. Scry, Pre-Buff and Swarm. (Bomber's eye, Reduce Person, Heroism, Cat's Grace, Mutagen (dex), Maybe Admixture for fun)
10. Surprise round/Movement round: 40 Readied poisoned true strike Tanglefoot Bomb crossbow bolts fire at AM BARBARIAN. Due to no stat block, I am going to assume that 12 hit. This forces a +40 fort save, which shouldn't be impossible for the guy, but needing 2 consecutive saves and not getting his superstition bonus due to the fact that it is mundane makes it rough. Also needs to not roll a 1 in twelve rolls of the d20, or be entangled and unable to charge. If Barbarian gets lucky with rolls or wins initiative, assume 1-5 dead simulacrum.
11. Have Simulacrum out of poison haste-full attack bomb. Repeat as desired. Switch energy type if there is a lack of success. Assume loss of 3 to 5 simulacrum per round.
12. If
Blowing the WBL limits helps kill anyone. Let's just add in artifacts in while we're at it, okay?
==Aelryinth
From the perspective of AM BARBARIAN being a PC: Trinam will come to your house and punch you and you will deserve it because you are a bad person.
I made a slight alteration to your above post, but am otherwise in agreement.
Unsee TAHT!
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From the perspective of AM BARBARIAN being a PC: Trinam will come to your house and punch you and you will deserve it because you are a bad person.I made a slight alteration to your above post, but am otherwise in agreement.
Oh, well in THAT case, AM BARBARIAN will mow down any regular, sane, logically-built caster with little effort or strain ^_^
I did always wonder why the ratio of casters in a party doesn't match the ratio of casters in the world... and now I know it's because of guys like AM BARBARIAN; thinning out the mage population for their own good :-D
Okay, I'll play.
The casties of the continent formerly known as Mage's Playground, and now known as AM BARBARILAND get fed up and hire Mister E to deal with their problem.
Mister E (level 20 Alchemist) creates 40 simulacra of himself. Each are 10th level alchemists. They each have the Mummification discovery. And Wings. Mister E himself (actually a doppelganger simulacra) travels with them.
Simulacra:
Creation 1000 gp
Alchemist Kit 25 gp
Explorer's Outfit 10 gp
Pocketed scarf (full of extracts and bomb ingredients) 8 gp
Cool Alchemist Goggles 10 gp
Studded Leather 25
Backpack 25
Total: 1080
40 Simulacra: 43,200
Mister E's Simulacra: 1000 gp
Ring of Protection +3 18K
Bracers of Armor +3 9K
Ring of Wizardry 1 20K
Mister E wears all this junk and a pointy hat. Uses his maxed out disguise (required to create convincing simulacra) to put on a beard and act like a wizzy. He makes at least 5 Infused Delayed Consumption Extracts and hands them out to his troops. He combines them with Amplify Elixir. 5 sims take this combo and then chug detonate.
So far we've spent 91.2K gold, by my reckoning. For fun they spend another 1K on a couple of masterwork banjos.
The party marches out into the middle of the woods. Or plain. Or wherever AM BARBARIAN was last spotted. Or wherever a casty last disappeared. They sing songs about how great it is to be in the service of a full caster like Mister E on their banjos, letting all the wildlife and any adventurers who pass by know how awesome he is, and how no dumb barbarian could ever destroy him.
We'll assume AM gets the drop on him and destroys him in round one. Now everyone rolls initiative. All of the sims have improved initiative. Some of them are bound to beat AM. Let's conservatively say only ten of them do. Each of them throws 2 tanglefoot bombs at the ground beneath his mount. That's 20 reflex saves, DC 20. If the mount fails any of them, he can't run or charge and can only move at half speed.
What is half of the mount's speed? Is it under 120? If so, (and assuming AM tries to run) the 5 suicide bombers get close to him and explode for 15d8 cold damage (which they're immune to) each. Assuming an average of 5 on those damage rolls, that's 375 damage. Assuming he succeeds on all 5 reflex saves, he takes 187 damage. Meanwhile the rest of the pack of alchemists takes detonate and start to chase after him, and they get 60 feet closer this round. Next round they can double move for 120 and explode for 35x10d8 cold damage. This time each dice only rolls a 4 for 1400 damage. He makes all reflex saves and takes 700. They can't all be within 15' of him, so let's further cut that down to about 350. Eh, make it 300. Total of about 487 so far? Does he have that kind of HP? If so, I'm betting he has to do a system shock roll. And the original 5, still alive, pelt him with force bombs and try to knock him prone and off his mount (and is that mount still alive?). How long can this go on?
Alternatively, AM can decide not to run and stay and fight. Let's say he slays all 5 of the suicide bombers in one round. That presumably took a full round action and now he's in the middle of 30+ alchemists who just took cold detonate extracts. And his Mount is probably still entangled, and moving at half speed. When he takes off, they'll follow him at double move speed.
Well, I've made a lot of assumptions, including no Ring of Evasion from AM. I also assume that AM doesn't smell a trap. What's his plan? Ignore this party because they're obviously not casters?
Thoughts?
EDIT: Whoops, can't combine Delayed Consumption with anything, since there's no such thing as 7th level extracts. Even if all 40 of them gave up an amplify elixir to those 5, that's only 8 minutes. Okay, Amplify is out if AM is to get the jump. But Delayed is still good.
A few things AM does have the ring of evasion.
BATTY BAT has fly by attack so he is still airborne so targeting the ground won't help, can still target him i think. Though he can probaly make the dc 15 reflex save.
his mounts speed is i think around 400ft a round
A few things AM does have the ring of evasion.
BATTY BAT has fly by attack so he is still airborne so targeting the ground won't help, can still target him i think. Though he can probaly make the dc 15 reflex save.
his mounts speed is i think around 400ft a round
Does Batty Bat also have a ring of evasion?
An alchemist I roll up with a 20 point buy is either an elf or a human. Either way an Int of at least 20 (more like 21) by level 10, gear free. That's a DC 20 on all discoveries, including bombs.
Before he gets that reflex save, though, they have to hit him. What's the mount's AC?
Does Flyby attack work with a RLP charge? If so, can't he hit and then fly away? Their effective bomb range is only 20', and if it's the surprise round then probably nobody can even get off a delayed detonate before he's gone.
CLONEBOMBSNEAK (working title)
Hoo. I'm not sure without sitting down and playing it out like you and the wizard did it. (That said, explosions are officially your answer to everything. I'm 'that barbarian guy' and you're 'that darned alchemist.' It's official. Welcome to a special circle of heck like most will never know.)
Now, the Tanglefoot bags are a good call, but.. can they entangle something that's in midair? If so, then it's a rather beautifully done move.
BATTY BAT is a summoner's eidolon that is also a summoner (Assuming Beyond The Impossible mode (TM)) and thus would have Improved Evasion naturally. Mounts touch AC has not yet been figured, but at least one attack per round is going to get mounted combat'd into not being a problem. Assuming BTIm(TM), half the mount's speed is ~200 ft. Maybe 215-230. Also, there's nothing in Pounce that would contradict with Ride-By attack so I'm under the assumption that would work (though obviously not if he charges from the sky--but usually tactics for groups on the ground involve RLPing from the outside in, should there not be a clear leader).
AM does have a ring of evasion, are the bombs considered (Su)? If so, Superstition would also apply, giving him ungodlysaves (TM)
CLONEBOMBSNEAK (working title)Hoo. I'm not sure without sitting down and playing it out like you and the wizard did it. (That said, explosions are officially your answer to everything. I'm 'that barbarian guy' and you're 'that darned alchemist.' It's official. Welcome to a special circle of heck like most will never know.)
Now, the Tanglefoot bags are a good call, but.. can they entangle something that's in midair? If so, then it's a rather beautifully done move.
BATTY BAT is a summoner's eidolon that is also a summoner (Assuming Beyond The Impossible mode (TM)) and thus would have Improved Evasion naturally. Mounts touch AC has not yet been figured, but at least one attack per round is going to get mounted combat'd into not being a problem. Assuming BTIm(TM), half the mount's speed is ~200 ft. Maybe 215-230. Also, there's nothing in Pounce that would contradict with Ride-By attack so I'm under the assumption that would work (though obviously not if he charges from the sky--but usually tactics for groups on the ground involve RLPing from the outside in, should there not be a clear leader).
AM does have a ring of evasion, are the bombs considered (Su)? If so, Superstition would also apply, giving him ungodlysaves (TM)
If he is flying he can be entangled but not glued if he fails his save if he makes it he is fine.
CLONEBOMBSNEAK (working title)Hoo. I'm not sure without sitting down and playing it out like you and the wizard did it. (That said, explosions are officially your answer to everything. I'm 'that barbarian guy' and you're 'that darned alchemist.' It's official. Welcome to a special circle of heck like most will never know.)
Now, the Tanglefoot bags are a good call, but.. can they entangle something that's in midair? If so, then it's a rather beautifully done move.
BATTY BAT is a summoner's eidolon that is also a summoner (Assuming Beyond The Impossible mode (TM)) and thus would have Improved Evasion naturally. Mounts touch AC has not yet been figured, but at least one attack per round is going to get mounted combat'd into not being a problem. Assuming BTIm(TM), half the mount's speed is ~200 ft. Maybe 215-230. Also, there's nothing in Pounce that would contradict with Ride-By attack so I'm under the assumption that would work (though obviously not if he charges from the sky--but usually tactics for groups on the ground involve RLPing from the outside in, should there not be a clear leader).
AM does have a ring of evasion, are the bombs considered (Su)? If so, Superstition would also apply, giving him ungodlysaves (TM)
RE: Entangling midair - I don't see why not. If you get hit with the bomb you gotta make the save or be entangled. You pretty much have a tanglefoot bomb snaking your feet or wings, yeah? And that's in addition to the damage.
But first I have to hit your touch AC, and at level 10, without time to buff those sims are probably hitting at like +11/+5, assuming within 20' (7+2dex+1Throw Anything+1PB shot) or rapid +9/+9/+3. Against some buffed level 18 eidolon monster? Better tactic is to throw at the ground under his feet and force the reflex save.
Pounce is a form of Charge. Charge is a full round action. Flyby attack allows one move action, with a standard at any point during that move. Not a move and then a full round action. How are you getting both?
RE: Explosions are my answer to everything -
What can I say? I like alchemists. They are advanced bomb-delivering devices. If you turn your back on the bombs, might as well play a wizard, yeah?
Incidentally, I defined my strategy (CLONEBOMBSNEAK) to my opponent as the Russian Tank Strategy. As in, your Nazi Tiger tank is way more advanced, fast, heavily armored, destructive than my T-34. But I can make a lot more at a cheaper rate, and now you're surrounded. Before you know it I occupy Berlin.
Ride-by attack is the feat I'm using in PF, and it is awesome.
Ride-by Attack (Combat)
While mounted and charging, you can move, strike at a foe, and then continue moving.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
Note that you move an attack as if a standard charge, and then move again.
Further note that 'attack as if a standard charge' means that pounce is applicable, as pounce applies during a standard charge.
Okay. So it's a moot point anyway, since AMB is well out of range before they even realize he's there. Unless he's foolish enough to swoop back and take on the obvious trap that's laid out for him.
So Mister E goes squish, wakes up in his body, takes a full round to move to another doppelganger, uses his considerable UMD to easily pass a Teleport scroll, returns to view the carnage, and is unpleasantly surprised by 40 Alchemists shrugging their shoulders and picking pricey magic items out of Mister E's squished former body. Time to regroup and plan another trap.
You win this round, AM BARBARIAN.
I'm fine with this new alchemist. I've always liked the class and the mental image of 40 dudes that all look the same flying around with banjos singing the "Totally Not a Trap" song. It's about as visually silly as AM and that makes me smile.
The fact that you've budgeted for the goggles that do nothing other than look cool is just icing.
A few things AM does have the ring of evasion.
BATTY BAT has fly by attack so he is still airborne so targeting the ground won't help, can still target him i think. Though he can probaly make the dc 15 reflex save.
his mounts speed is i think around 400ft a round
How many rings now?
1. Invisibility
2. Spell Turning
3. Evasion
I'm guessing he has one of regeneration too?
Simply pathetic.
Okay. So it's a moot point anyway, since AMB is well out of range before they even realize he's there. Unless he's foolish enough to swoop back and take on the obvious trap that's laid out for him.
So Mister E goes squish, wakes up in his body, takes a full round to move to another doppelganger, uses his considerable UMD to easily pass a Teleport scroll, returns to view the carnage, and is unpleasantly surprised by 40 Alchemists shrugging their shoulders and picking pricey magic items out of Mister E's squished former body. Time to regroup and plan another trap.
You win this round, AM BARBARIAN.
BUT-
presumably many of these 40 clones saw him, and now they can draw/describe what he looks like with their 20 INT scores. Also, even though they couldn't act, presumably many of them got off a spellcraft check against his gear.
Although they don't have access to detect magic. Hmm. Does spellcraft work without it?
AM does not have a ring of invisibility but if he wanted he could have a third ring if he was wearing a hand of glory. Perhaps you were thinking of the posts that dealt with AM being able to also make use of a ring of invisibility and mind blank?
A few things AM does have the ring of evasion.
BATTY BAT has fly by attack so he is still airborne so targeting the ground won't help, can still target him i think. Though he can probaly make the dc 15 reflex save.
his mounts speed is i think around 400ft a round
How many rings now?
1. Invisibility
2. Spell Turning
3. EvasionI'm guessing he has one of regeneration too?
Simply pathetic.
I liked you better when you were giving constructive input instead of trying to play the opponent.
You seem to have a tendency to get dismissive when you decide you hate something. It's a feature in common with most castys I've seen. That makes me sad, particularly because nothing's actually being dismissed. You're still here. ;D
But no I don't think he ever had an invisibility ring. Though it would be hilarious. STEALTH BOMBER BARBARIAN AM SMASH ALL THINGS ALWAYS.
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Hey fixit. Think we can strap an entire alchemist or two to the bottom of the bat? I just had an awesome idea.
AM does not have a ring of invisibility but if he wanted he could have a third ring if he was wearing a hand of glory. Perhaps you were thinking of the posts that dealt with AM being able to also make use of a ring of invisibility and mind blank?
Am couldn't do that because he'd have to give up the scarab opening him up to the easiest ways of killing him (enervation/energy drain).
Though I suppose now that we're talking many simulacrums out there, you could probably adapt the idea to use them to destroy the scarab with a bunch of enervations.
AM does not have a ring of invisibility but if he wanted he could have a third ring if he was wearing a hand of glory. Perhaps you were thinking of the posts that dealt with AM being able to also make use of a ring of invisibility and mind blank?Am couldn't do that because he'd have to give up the scarab opening him up to the easiest ways of killing him (enervation/energy drain).
Though I suppose now that we're talking many simulacrums out there, you could probably adapt the idea to use them to destroy the scarab with a bunch of enervations.
Theoretically possible. I'd assume a 19 SR wouldn't cause too much trouble from yonscarab(TM), though you might run into some problems coming from his Touch AC, seeing as Simulacrums can't be above level 10.
Theoretically possible. I'd assume a 19 SR wouldn't cause too much trouble from yonscarab(TM), though you might run into some problems coming from his Touch AC, seeing as Simulacrums can't be above level 10.AM does not have a ring of invisibility but if he wanted he could have a third ring if he was wearing a hand of glory. Perhaps you were thinking of the posts that dealt with AM being able to also make use of a ring of invisibility and mind blank?Am couldn't do that because he'd have to give up the scarab opening him up to the easiest ways of killing him (enervation/energy drain).
Though I suppose now that we're talking many simulacrums out there, you could probably adapt the idea to use them to destroy the scarab with a bunch of enervations.
Absolutely agree. Some simulacrums would be sacrifices so the rest could cast true strike in the first round I suppose :P
And when Paizo gets their mythic rules out, we can make simulacrums of 40th level characters so 20th level casty can have a bunch of 20th level casty helpers. Twenty 20th level helpers would only be 200,000 gp ;)
Theoretically possible. I'd assume a 19 SR wouldn't cause too much trouble from yonscarab(TM), though you might run into some problems coming from his Touch AC, seeing as Simulacrums can't be above level 10.AM does not have a ring of invisibility but if he wanted he could have a third ring if he was wearing a hand of glory. Perhaps you were thinking of the posts that dealt with AM being able to also make use of a ring of invisibility and mind blank?Am couldn't do that because he'd have to give up the scarab opening him up to the easiest ways of killing him (enervation/energy drain).
Though I suppose now that we're talking many simulacrums out there, you could probably adapt the idea to use them to destroy the scarab with a bunch of enervations.
Absolutely agree. Some simulacrums would be sacrifices so the rest could cast true strike in the first round I suppose :P
And when Paizo gets their mythic rules out, we can make simulacrums of 40th level characters so 20th level casty can have a bunch of 20th level casty helpers. Twenty 20th level helpers would only be 200,000 gp ;)
Yeah but then AM'd be level 40 and we'd be in the same spot all over again, only with doubled numbers. ;)
Yeah but then AM'd be level 40 and we'd be in the same spot all over again, only with doubled numbers. ;)
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*mind blown*
...man.
I just had a thought, and that thought made me feel faint.
Epic Rage Powers.
Dear god. I'm out, this is the point where AM breaks through reality and starts RAGELANCEPOUNCING US. I'm TOTALLY out.
...man.
I just had a thought, and that thought made me feel faint.
Epic Rage Powers.
Welp, now we know where Time Sunder and Death Sunder come in. Maybe even Plane Sunder
A few things AM does have the ring of evasion.
BATTY BAT has fly by attack so he is still airborne so targeting the ground won't help, can still target him i think. Though he can probaly make the dc 15 reflex save.
his mounts speed is i think around 400ft a round
How many rings now?
1. Invisibility
2. Spell Turning
3. EvasionI'm guessing he has one of regeneration too?
Simply pathetic.
I liked you better when you were giving constructive input instead of trying to play the opponent.
You seem to have a tendency to get dismissive when you decide you hate something. It's a feature in common with most castys I've seen. That makes me sad, particularly because nothing's actually being dismissed. You're still here. ;D
But no I don't think he ever had an invisibility ring. Though it would be hilarious. STEALTH BOMBER BARBARIAN AM SMASH ALL THINGS ALWAYS.
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Hey fixit. Think we can strap an entire alchemist or two to the bottom of the bat? I just had an awesome idea.
Gotta catch 'em first. Without splatting them into inert flesh. Or you want to take a second cohort?
Purchase alchemist hireling?
Purchase alchemist hireling?That probably works.
...alchemists are considered consumables, right?
If Mister E is to be considered, the answer is yes. What's the cost on a single use 20th level character? Crating rules aren't helping here.
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If Mister E is to be considered, the answer is yes. What's the cost on a single use 20th level character? Crating rules aren't helping here.Purchase alchemist hireling?That probably works.
...alchemists are considered consumables, right?
I'd ballpark it around 32k; 20k and some change to make a flesh golem, 10k or so to make a couple of simulacra. Flesh golem smashes them together. 10+10=20, right?
Is an alchemist a splash weapon? Would he add his own Int modifier to damage if thrown at something?
I liked you better when you were giving constructive input instead of trying to play the opponent.
Here's where I stand on the issue.
AM is neat. You're piddling around and being dismissive of requests for how you find mages followed by calling for new rules because people are beating you and putting up builds before you has you getting all defensive and others self righteous in their claims.
You said any and all castys. Now any and all castys are getting involved and its so much more headache than you realize so you want the rules changed. To heck with that -- AM is too neat for such...
The follow up with "oh now he's under attack and and and" when he called them out, is also beyond annoying. It's the work of a bully. All so brave when no one is ready to break his pretty face, but when someone stands up suddenly it's AM being picked on.
That is pathetic, and I will [b]always call it out as such.
It doesn't help that such defenses have amounted to "Oh yeah, how does the wizard FIND AM? How does he approach? His bat has blind sight he can see all! His speed is 100 MpH!"
First off his blindsight is 40 feet, and his maximum speed is somehow faster than what a bat with a move of 70 feet (base 40 +30 for the horseshoes he can't actually wear) of 31.82 MpH.
However when people ask the exact same questions about AM he has no answers. He doesn't have the means of finding an invisible Mind blanked caster outside of 40 feet, and even then he doesn't have a means of securing a charge line.
You seem to have a tendency to get dismissive when you decide you hate something. It's a feature in common with most castys I've seen. That makes me sad, particularly because nothing's actually being dismissed. You're still here. ;DBut no I don't think he ever had an invisibility ring. Though it would be hilarious. STEALTH BOMBER BARBARIAN AM SMASH ALL THINGS ALWAYS.
Hey fixit. Think we can strap an entire alchemist or two to the bottom of the bat? I just had an awesome idea.
Honestly? At this point I would rather simply see a barbarian build instead of all this extra non-sense. You've strayed from the path -- you took one casty on and now you are grabbing two more?
The whole thing was that AM BARBARIAN was 'real' -- that you could actually sit him at a table (though you claim you shouldn't, which is fine) and that he could beat any Casty.
Well Now he's got issues and you are too busy being too insincere in your efforts to actually bother with the real exercise.
The funny part is the basic tactics that have been offered to date by the people presenting wizards will work and are stuff that any wizard could currently do.
Instead of coming up with effective means of defense, or plans the people defending AM are too busy with denial to actually do their job.
That is also pathetic and counter to the spirit of what this was supposed to be -- AM BARBARIAN is supposed to be able to take any casty at any time with just the rules.
So either DO IT or admit that there's just more than you could have imagined and you have bitten off more than you thought.
I'm good either way, and then all the jollies and laughs are fine, but the current scoffing at people legitimately doing exactly what was asked of them (providing ways in which AM can be beaten) is more than a little annoying.
Can we get back to a more pure encounter, perhaps?
AM BARBARIAN and eidolon BATTY BAT fly around and RAGLELANCEPOUNCE all level 20 arcane casters at max speed at all times.
CASTY CASTER does NOT know of the existence of AM BARBARIAN and BATTY BAT explicitly.
Both sides follow RAW and only use published items and the same WBL.
The scenario must be set up so that initiative is rolled. Any situation in which initiative is not rolled just means there hasn't been an encounter. CASTY CASTER being able to ensure the impossibility of an encounter is considered a draw.
If a claim from one side is made, RAW must be quoted to show how you can perform what you claim. Once you make this claim, that portion of your build is SET IN STONE and cannot be changed later.
GO!
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Can we get back to a more pure encounter, perhaps?
AM BARBARIAN and eidolon BATTY BAT fly around and RAGLELANCEPOUNCE all level 20 arcane casters at max speed at all times.
CASTY CASTER does NOT know of the existence of AM BARBARIAN and BATTY BAT explicitly.
Both sides follow RAW and only use published items and the same WBL.
The scenario must be set up so that initiative is rolled. Any situation in which initiative is not rolled just means there hasn't been an encounter. CASTY CASTER being able to ensure the impossibility of an encounter is considered a draw.
If a claim from one side is made, RAW must be quoted to show how you can perform what you claim. Once you make this claim, that portion of your build is SET IN STONE and cannot be changed later.
GO!
Um...no?
First, you're assuming AM has a way of identifying casters, by level. Demonstrate it.Second, just what is BATTY BAT? Is he a real dire bat? A horse polymorphed into a dire bat? A synthesist summoner? The unholy union of Observed State and a gelatinous cube?
Third, how do we set the conditions of the encounter?
Fourth, what constitutes victory? Unconscious? Dead? Dead and unable to be resurrected? Because the caster has several ways of coming back from dead, only angrier and better informed. AM may well have methods as well.
...I'm sure I can think of more questions; those are just the first ones off the top of my head.
But I digress. The issue here is unrelated to that.
It has not been my intention to scoff at anyone with legitimate points, save that one guy who branded me with that title upthread, and I believe we can agree he had it coming. If you feel that is what I am doing, then you do have my apologies.
At this point, however, castys as a whole have tried casting polymorph any argument to radically alter the circumstances. As a person who probably plays a lot of wizards, I'm sure you know that you really really like knowing everything about what's coming. The problem is that AM within game confines has no real, logical way to see him coming or prepare for him, and every casty here handwaves knowledge of the fact that he exists.
I am yet to see a response to the claim that mind blank doesn't protect magic items you have other than 'it just does because it does.' It doesn't mention it does in RAW, and Nondetection certainly does. I have not brought this back up when I likely should have, as it is a very simple way to find invisible, mind blanked casters. (It also makes fluff sense; items don't have a kind that can be blanked)
He sees your stuff and notes there's not a thing there? Splat. Issue resolved.
The problem I have with what you are saying is this: you want me to post a build so that Paizo as a whole can tear it apart with perfect knowledge of the build inside and out. This is something that is so radically different from anything that happens that it gets crazy.
I know how I would build him to run as a GM, and I have a good idea about how I would build him as a PC.
What you are asking, however, is for a PvP build to be made, and have it be 'the one build.'
There is a simple rule in PvP combat: showing your enemy your entire build prior to them making a character at all is tantamount to giving up and going home.
You are, in no uncertain terms, requesting me to overcome this handicap, something that a casty could not do either as I assure you that if you showed me a wizard 20 build I could certainly talor a RAGELANCEPOUNCE barbarian to murder it. This means the only option I have at the moment is to become AM BATMAN.
PvP, as Mister E has shown, is not about classes or equipment. It's about knowing what to expect from your opponent, and having a crazy plan to counteract it and then a backup to counter their counter counter.
You are expecting a PvP build with one specific gearset that kills absolutely everything including things designed specifically to murder that one barbarian with that one gearset, and I admittedly want to get as close as possible.
However, attempting to overcome the cardinal rule of the PvP setting for something which I know is going to devolve into a mass of PvP is really really hard, and doing so effectively means I need to consider for every build possible under the sun.
Add in my other priorities atop that, and if you still don't get why this is taking so long, I don't really know what to say.
TL;DR: You're trying to get a mathematical solution to chaos theory, and that takes a while. I might not even be able to succeed, but my god I want to see what can be done.
Um...no?
First, you're assuming AM has a way of identifying casters, by level. Demonstrate it.
Second, just what is BATTY BAT? Is he a real dire bat? A horse polymorphed into a dire bat? A synthesist summoner? The unholy union of Observed State and a gelatinous cube?
Third, how do we set the conditions of the encounter?
Fourth, what constitutes victory? Unconscious? Dead? Dead and unable to be resurrected? Because the caster has several ways of coming back from dead, only angrier and better informed. AM may well have methods as well....I'm sure I can think of more questions; those are just the first ones off the top of my head.
*I'm* not assuming anything. AM BARBARIAN has claimed that he can see caster levels. You are questioning this power, so now AM BARBARIAN needs to show how he does it.
Second, BATTY BAT is a synthesist summoner gained via the Leadership feat, I believe. However, again, it's up to AM BARBARIAN to demonstrate how he has BATTY BAT by RAW.
Third, I believe that AM BARBARIAN has claimed he sets the conditions by 'flying around util I see CASTY, then kill him!' or 'Fly around tilI see Casty in a Tower, then collapse Tower!'. However, if you feel that as a CASTY you can set up an encounter with AM BARBARIAN more to your liking, then feel free. If you claim 'I never get into a situation where AM BARBARIAN can see me to roll initiative' then you get to claim a draw.
Fourth: Let's claim 'unconscious, helpless to act, and within the other's power' as victory. If AM BARBARIAN kills you but you have a RAW method to come back to life, AM BARBARIAN has not won. However, the encounter isn't over, either, as failing to lose isn't winning. If your winning encounter requires you to die first, that is acceptable. However, you only get one shot at presenting your 'what I do after I'm dead' solution. If it proves to be unworkable, then we'll count that as a win for AM BARBARIAN.
I think this is pretty clear. AM BARBARIAN flies around killing CASTY. What does CASTY do?
'Not encounter Barbarian' is a valid lifestyle choice, but makes for a poor scenario.
Sorry I thought AM was supposed to be a real character.
I already granted the equipment request before -- all I wanted was an actual build. Something that was *claimed* to already exist.
At this point it's just sophistry to cover the fact that AM doesn't exist apparently. Which is a shame because the idea was neat.
EDIT: I'm just very frustrated at the lack of proof. People have given a lot of trust in playing by your rules to date, and granted you a lot of free way in rules interpretations. The response to this has been less than desirable.
At the end of the day I'm just saying, "Admit it, you were wrong" or quit tip toeing around and make a stand.