First I DO NOT, repeat DO NOT want this to devolve into a Hide in Plain SIght conversation. There are plenty of threads on that already.
Now that that's out of the way...
I always liked this PRC, but it seems counter intuitive for a PC. You're awesome at hiding, but then what?
What's the best thing about this class and is it worth it?
Discuss. ;-)
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But... But... Dancers have nice hips. Really nice hips.
Summon Shadow (Su): At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow's alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow receives a +4 bonus on Will saves made to halve the damage from positive channeled energy and the shadow cannot be turned or commanded. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. This shadow has a number of hit points equal to half the shadowdancer's total. The shadow uses the shadowdancer's base attack bonus and base save bonuses.
If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer gains one permanent negative level. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.
This. Strength damage wizards to death.
I always liked this PRC, but it seems counter intuitive for a PC. You're awesome at hiding, but then what?
Why is hiding "counterintuitive" for PCs?
My two cents:
This. Strength damage wizards to death.Summon Shadow (Su): At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow's alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow receives a +4 bonus on Will saves made to halve the damage from positive channeled energy and the shadow cannot be turned or commanded. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. This shadow has a number of hit points equal to half the shadowdancer's total. The shadow uses the shadowdancer's base attack bonus and base save bonuses.
If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer gains one permanent negative level. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.
Humm... do you think you could make a rogue into a good wizard killer? Maybe that targetd dispel on attack thing with a flanking shadow?
I always liked this PRC, but it seems counter intuitive for a PC. You're awesome at hiding, but then what?Why is hiding "counterintuitive" for PCs?
My two cents:
I'm not crazy about the Shadowdancer class; most of the class features other than he-who-shall-not-be-named are pretty lame.
The Shadowdancer has nothing on the Pathfinder Chronicler when it comes to "NPC-only" classes...
Counterintuitive because, generally speaking, PC's kill things for a living as a group. Stealth is usually a solo activity.
Humm... do you think you could make a rogue into a good wizard killer? Maybe that targetd dispel on attack thing with a flanking shadow?This. Strength damage wizards to death.Summon Shadow (Su): At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow's alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow receives a +4 bonus on Will saves made to halve the damage from positive channeled energy and the shadow cannot be turned or commanded. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. This shadow has a number of hit points equal to half the shadowdancer's total. The shadow uses the shadowdancer's base attack bonus and base save bonuses.
If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer gains one permanent negative level. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.
That incorporeal touch attack is gold, honestly. Gaining the shadow dancer's BAB makes it even better. Incorporeal touch attacks are rarely deflected and often against rather low numbers (usually under 20 even in high dex builds). Use the 1d6 Strength damage twice and you've probably killed the wizard. Use it twice on a fighter and there goes +3 or +4 from his attack bonus and more from his damage bonus. Strength damage is usually brutal because either you need it to be effective (so losing it means you are less effective) or you don't need it and thus dumped it (meaning you die from the Strength damage faster).
Now, I would be hard pressed to find a strong reason to stay in Shadowdancer past level 3 though...
That incorporeal touch attack is gold, honestly. Gaining the shadow dancer's BAB makes it even better. Incorporeal touch attacks are rarely deflected and often against rather low numbers (usually under 20 even in high dex builds). Use the 1d6 Strength damage twice and you've probably killed the wizard. Use it twice on a fighter and there goes +3 or +4 from his attack bonus and more from his damage bonus. Strength damage is usually brutal because either you need it to be effective (so losing it means you are less effective) or you don't need it and thus dumped it (meaning you die from the Strength damage faster).
Now, I would be hard pressed to find a strong reason to stay in Shadowdancer past level 3 though...
You make a strong arguement for a ranger/shadowdancer. ;-)
i really wish they would have turned the iconic PRCs in to archetypes, i would have been a great example of the diffidence of 3.5 vs pathfinder.
The problem with shadowdancer is that it is a great for a 2 or 3 level dip, and horrible after that. For 2 a level dip, you get HIPS, Evasion, darkvision, and uncanny dodge(that stacks with uncanny dodge from other classes). The best 2 level dip for any character that wants to be really sneaky.
Meh abilities
Shadow Jump - Limited version of dimension door, get a wand of DD and UMD for the same effect.
Shadow Illusion - Silent image, again, get a wand and UMD it.
Defensive Roll, Slippery Mind, Improved Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge - Good abilities, but you can get all of these from other classes.
Shadow Call - Duplicates a 4th level spell, again, get a wand if you really want that.
Shadow Power - yeah, I can create limited shadow evocations. If you really want to blast something, get a want of fireball.
Cool abilities...
Summon Shadow - This is a really cool ability except for this.
If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer gains one permanent negative level. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.
The price of losing your shadow in combat is way too steep. Lets say you are a rogue 5/shadowdancer 3. You would have 43 hp base plus 8 times con modifier. With a con modifier of +2, you are looking at around 55 hp. You shadow would have 27 hp. At level 9, a wizard's basic magic missle does 5d4+5 -> 17 or so damage. See invisibility + magic missle + hasted magic missle = dead shadow. A level 10 fighter with a magic weapon has a decent chance of one rounding it. You are basically risking negative levels every time you summon the thing. Even if you dismiss him, you still risk a negative level. To add insult to injury, even if you save against the negative level, you lose access to the ability for 30 days, while a druid or ranger who loses their pet can regain it after 24 hours.
Shadow Master - great capstone ability, too bad you have to crawl through 8 levels of suck to get to it.
My other big gripe with shadowdancer is that the class has no sneak attack progression. You get all the great abilities for striking from the shadows, but you hit for crap damage because you your progression on sneak attack(or any other damage dealing skills) is stopped cold.
In short the "good" abilities of the class are frontloaded with a lot of suck in between levels 3 and 10. A 2 level dip in shadowdancer is way too good, but going all 10 levels is about 7 levels farther than you should go. A rogue 18/shadowdancer 2 or rogue 17/shadowdancer 3 are much better than a rogue 10/shadowdancer 10.
What I would change...
- Remove Shadow Power, the whole shadow nuking things just feels off. It seems like someone's great idea was "Let cram every spell that has the word Shadow in the name in as a class ability" This one in particular just seems way too flashy for a sneaky class.
- Add a new ability, Shadow Strike at level 1. Shadow Strike - When fighting in areas of dim light, you deal an extra 1d6 precision damage. At levels 4, 7, and 10 this bonus increases by 1d6. Basically, an alternate version of sneak attack that is dependant on lighting instead of flanking.
- Move darkvision to level 1.
- Move HIPS to level 4. Removes some of the class's frontloading. This means the earliest you can get HIPS is level 9, which is still earliers than others classes get it.
- Shadow image becomes minor image at level 6 and major image at level 9.
- Shadow Call becomes greater shadow conjuration at level 8 instead of level 10.
- Remove the negative level for losing the shadow, and let it come back after a week if it dies. If the shadow is dismissed, nothing bad happens.
The problem with shadowdancer is that it is a great for a 2 or 3 level dip, and horrible after that. For 2 a level dip, you get HIPS, Evasion, darkvision, and uncanny dodge(that stacks with uncanny dodge from other classes). The best 2 level dip for any character that wants to be really sneaky.
+1 to pretty much everything just said. I had a real desire to play a Shadowdancer with my Swashbuckler/Rogue/Swordsage and while the effects are really nice like Darkvision, HIPS, and Shadow Jaunt I could easily just do that with UMD (like Charender says). Now, Darkvision is more beneficial if you have a cantrip like No Light usable a few times per day or even Darkness/Deeper Darkness. That being said, no +1d6 SA progression or one it's own is rather silly IMO. It needs one for a viable rogue character to really make this PrC "dance".
I rather like shadow jump for it's utility, but it's not worth taking that many levels to get it. If your DM rules that the DDoor feats from UC work with shadow jump all the better.
I actually Designed a Rogue 10/ SD 10 who was a master assassin based on guerrilla tactics. He made use of his shadow only rarely, keeping it hidden when not using it to carry out a hit, but complimented it with the advanced rogue talent Crippling Strike.
That said, I agree that the potential level loss and time from losing your shadow and the time to replace it is a big hit, one that our group effectively removed by making all level losses temporary (though some required multiple saves to remove).
Past that, is is essential to realize that it takes at least 5 levels between the skill and feat requirements before you can even enter this PrC. Taking that into account, the Shadow Call and Shadow Power abilities, if straight prestige classing after you qualify, are acquired at levels roughly equal to the levels that a wizard could expect to first gain access to them, the Shadow Illusion power is acquired a bit late by that standard, and the HIPS ability is gained WAY before any other class could hope to get it.
Considering the above, I agree with Charender's placement of DV at lvl 1 and HIPS at lvl 4 (if not later), as well as his handling of Shadow Illusion and Shadow Call (considering that this PrC combination should alternate base class and PrC lvls for best effect). However, I am not convinced that Shadow Power should be replaced by a new "sneak attack" effect. As for that ability being flashy, I'd consider it an effective way to use scare tactics, though I would probably use more subtle evocation effects such as Wall of Ice, Resilient Sphere, and Telekinetic Charge rather than Ball Lightning or Dragon's Breath, just to name a few. Think of making their nightmare real.
This PrC is not technically based off of a rogue IMHO (considering that rogues are no longer just stealth-stab monkeys and the lack of a sneak attack requirement), but rather provides a way to give rogues some nice spell-like abilities and to give other classes, especially fighters, monks and rangers some nice stealth abilities on top of that.
And as for the stealthy character not being a good party member, just imagine the guy who is never noticed at the back of the group. Maybe you even noticed him when the party first entered but forgot about him until it was too late (HIPS).
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I'm of the opinion that the shadow dancer synergizes best with Ranger. If I play one that's going to be my starting class.
I'm GMing an adventure path for a six-member party that includes a Rogue/Shadowdancer, and I strongly wish I'd removed Shadowdancers from the game by GM fiat.
As written, once you summon a shadow it can be around all the time, like a familiar or animal companion. It's painfully easy for the shadow to get into flanking position with the Rogue, effectively giving its master sneak attack damage on every attack just by standing still. Meanwhile, it only has to succeed against Touch AC, so it pretty much gets a free STR drain attack every round, averaging 3.5 points per hit.
It's really hard for me to understand why, say, a Bard might be limited to providing 17 rounds of Inspire Courage per day, but a Shadowdancer/Rogue can get unlimited, all-day-long use of +5d6 dmg and -3.5 STR per round against opponents.
In my case the character is of a BAB now that grants him 3 attacks per round, and he's taken a feat that gives his shadow 3/4 his hit point rather than the usual 1/2, so the shadow is hardly ever in danger from their flanked victim: the guy dealing 18d6+15 dmg per round is almost always the bigger threat. The shadow did get destroyed once, but it's almost time for it to come back now.
I GMed a character in 3.5-to-Pathfinder (we converted along the way) who was something like Fighter 2/Rogue 10, Shadowdancer 7 (this may not have been the exact split).
He was very effective at mobility. He was very creative with the use of Shadow Jump. Yes, it's a limited Dimension Door and yes you could UMD a scroll or something, but that costs resources, and shadow jump was not--and much more importantly, shadow jump is a supernatural ability, so it does not provoke AOOs. So he could shadow jump out of the dragon's mouth he found himself in (Snatch monster ability) that one time with no repercussions.
I wish he used the shadow conjuration more. He was an incredibly creative player and often came up with unorthodox ways of doing things, and it always struck me as odd he didn't use some of his class abilities. Maybe shadow conjuration seems meh, but I could imagine a number of uses for it in the particular situations they were in.
The summon shadow should have been more useful--and he did use the shadow to good effect sometimes (Summon Flanking Buddy for a Rogue is awesome), but he was too afraid of the negative level (less so at high levels after the cleric's player managed to drill into his head that curing the negative level wasn't a huge deal, not to mention a DC 15 Fortitude save wasn't that bad for him to make). But I think the penalty is steep, and it's ridiculous that you incur it if you even dismiss the shadow (which was houseruled out of our game). I'd say that it should take longer to summon the shadow (1 minute, like a summoner's eidolon), and you don't get to summon your shadow for 24 hours if it gets killed. Take a Constitution penalty for those 24 hours. No penalty if you dismiss the shadow (but again, it will take you a minute to resummon it, so you can't do it in the middle of combat).
I actually like the class, and if you want to play mystical-sneaky it's a great way to go if you're not a spellcaster. The player more than survived with shadowdancer levels from level 2 to 19--and in fact was a constantly useful contributor to the party, if not outright the party daredevil who got away with more stuff than I've ever seen any other character/class combo get away with. I am sure this was as much player ingenuity as class build, but----I guess in short, if you like the concept, and you're a smart, creative thinker, you can do great things with this PrC.
Considering the above, I agree with Charender's placement of DV at lvl 1 and HIPS at lvl 4 (if not later), as well as his handling of Shadow Illusion and Shadow Call (considering that this PrC combination should alternate base class and PrC lvls for best effect). However, I am not convinced that Shadow Power should be replaced by a new "sneak attack" effect. As for that ability being flashy, I'd consider it an effective way to use scare tactics, though I would probably use more subtle evocation effects such as Wall of Ice, Resilient Sphere, and Telekinetic Charge rather than Ball Lightning or Dragon's Breath, just to name a few. Think of making their nightmare real.
My complaint about shadow power is threefold
- Doesn't synergize well. If you are using shadow power, then there is something else you are not doing. In combat, you are usually moving into position to attack, or attacking. That gives you very few opportunities to use shadow power. Shadow call and shadow illusion have way more out of combat utility.- Poor mechanics. The target gets a will save to disbelieve. Then they get any saves the spell would normally grant. Most shadowdancers are not going to max out charisma. So basically, you get 2 saves against a DC 17 or 18. Wall of ice is one of the few spells that might actually do something, because they would not get any saves until they tried to interact with it. At that point, wouldn't an illusion of an ice wall be just as effective?
- Most Evocation spells are a bit too flashy for a this class. I use shadows to create a ball of fire or a lightning bolt? It just doesn't feel right.
I am all for dropping the ability for something that most shadowdancers will actually use.
It is true that most evocation spells are very flashy, but there are those such as Ice Storm and Darkness which work well with subtle Shadowdancers (no light effect, but good controlling effect and decent possible damage).
As for the the flashier ones, I wouldn't base a character on them anyway, but if you insist on using one imagine a fireball composed of such muted tones so that it's almost black and white, a roiling darkness streaked with arcane energies. Similar to how a fireball on the plane of shadow might look.
It might be a little against the concept grain, but going unnoticed is not always the same as going unseen. Sometimes it is necessary to make someone believe you are an Illusionist to gain entry to the local wizards academy. They never even realized you were there until the headmaster turned up a withered husk in the ancient sarcophagus in the necromancer's classroom.
Besides, Shadow Power is a minor (if potentially powerful) class ability. It can only be used 2/day at 10th lvl and always gives one more save than the spell it mimics, hardly a damage boost even with a shadow fireball or ball lightning. It is really best used to buff yourself and do area effect battlefield control. Replacing it with extra sneak attack is giving a major ability in trade for a minor one IMHO.
And as for what character's actually use, well, that's up to them. The extra damage will almost certainly be used, sure, but the ability to create any evocation of a given level or lower can be useful in many more situations.
Now, if you'd still prefer the extra damage I'd see no problem with that variant as a DM, but having the only restriction on when it can be applied being an area of shadows is a bit overpowered when you can Shadow Call a creature with the ability to cast the spell Darkness. Extra sneak attack, fine, only requirement being shadows, little too much. Maybe an extra sneak attack dice that can only be used in shadows, seeing as what it actually replaces is a minor ability.
It is true that most evocation spells are very flashy, but there are those such as Ice Storm and Darkness which work well with subtle Shadowdancers (no light effect, but good controlling effect and decent possible damage).
As for the the flashier ones, I wouldn't base a character on them anyway, but if you insist on using one imagine a fireball composed of such muted tones so that it's almost black and white, a roiling darkness streaked with arcane energies. Similar to how a fireball on the plane of shadow might look.
It might be a little against the concept grain, but going unnoticed is not always the same as going unseen. Sometimes it is necessary to make someone believe you are an Illusionist to gain entry to the local wizards academy. They never even realized you were there until the headmaster turned up a withered husk in the ancient sarcophagus in the necromancer's classroom.
Besides, Shadow Power is a minor (if potentially powerful) class ability. It can only be used 2/day at 10th lvl and always gives one more save than the spell it mimics, hardly a damage boost even with a shadow fireball or ball lightning. It is really best used to buff yourself and do area effect battlefield control. Replacing it with extra sneak attack is giving a major ability in trade for a minor one IMHO.
And as for what character's actually use, well, that's up to them. The extra damage will almost certainly be used, sure, but the ability to create any evocation of a given level or lower can be useful in many more situations.
Now, if you'd still prefer the extra damage I'd see no problem with that variant as a DM, but having the only restriction on when it can be applied being an area of shadows is a bit overpowered when you can Shadow Call a creature with the ability to cast the spell Darkness. Extra sneak attack, fine, only requirement being shadows, little too much. Maybe an extra sneak attack dice that can only be used in shadows, seeing as what it actually replaces is a minor ability.
If you use it that way, the ability has a huge overlap with shadow image. If you need to convince someone your are an illusionist, shadow image will do the trick. Create an illusion of a wall to make enemies avoid an area of the battlefield. Almost any place where shadow power would be useful, you can use shadow image.
The problem is that as long as shadow power is part of the class, it counts as a damage dealing ability. I would much rather have a damage dealing ability that would actually deal damage.
I'm of the opinion that the shadow dancer synergizes best with Ranger. If I play one that's going to be my starting class.
That is part of the problem with the class. Ir synergizes best with ranger, ok with rogue, meh with bard, and so on.
I really like the idea of a bard 10/shadowdancer 10, but the PrC as written makes this a really bad idea.