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Ok this has more than likly been answered before......but what happened to the Red Mantis Assassin.
In the (3.5 friendly) Campain Setting it has a Death Attack like the core Assassin, but it is a will save not a fort save.
In the Inner Sea World Guide it does not get a Death Attack.
Was there a reason for this that I'm missing, Whats the Deal?
Prayer Attack At 2nd level, a Red Mantis assassin learns her signature assassination style. To initiate a prayer attack, she holds her sawtooth sabre (or sabres) out, point down, and weaves the blade in the air. She must be within 30 feet of and visible to her victim. Beginning a prayer attack is a standard action, and causes her victim to be fascinated by her unless he makes a Will save (DC 10 + the Red Mantis assassin’s class level + her Charisma modifier—if she’s wielding two sawtooth sabres, this DC gains a +2 bonus). She can maintain the fascination effect by concentrating. The victim may attempt a new save to escape fascination each time a threat (other than the fascinating assassin) appears. At any point after 3 rounds, she may make a coup de grace attack against the target, provided the target is still fascinated. Activating or concentrating on maintaining a prayer attack does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
This is much better imho no worries with being seen and CdGs tend to have much better saves.
Does concentrating to maintain the fascination effect require another standard action each round?
Does concentrating to maintain the fascination effect require another standard action each round?
I would assume that its just like a spell so yes.
Well the my next Question is then....why does the Core Assassin still have the old Death Attack: DC(10+Assn LVL+ Int mod)or die, which seems alot weeker than Prayer Attack: perform coup de grace; which is DC(10+DMG dealt) or die.
Sense sneak attack dmg is counted in that would be a DC(10+(1d8+str*2)+3d6(sneak attack)) for a DC higher than 30 with average rolls, this is better than the DC from a Death Attack.
Why the hate toward the core Assassin?
Well the my next Question is then....why does the Core Assassin still have the old Death Attack: DC(10+Assn LVL+ Int mod)or die, which seems alot weeker than Prayer Attack: perform coup de grace; which is DC(10+DMG dealt) or die.
Sense sneak attack dmg is counted in that would be a DC(10+(1d8+str*2)+3d6(sneak attack)) for a DC higher than 30 with average rolls, this is better than the DC from a Death Attack.
Why the hate toward the core Assassin?
Yes but you're ignoring the Will save that happens before that for a Prayer Attack.
Ok but there again the Red Mantis can squeeze an extra +2 into the will save if it uses two weapons, the core Assassin gets no such ability
Because Red Mantis Assassins are the best of the best.
Two save throws compared to taking more time.
Death Attack (Ex): If an assassin studies his victim for 3
rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon
that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the
additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the
target (assassin’s choice). Studying the victim is a standard
action. The death attack fails if the target detects the
assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy (although
the attack might still be a sneak attack if the target is denied
his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class or is f lanked). If the
victim of such a death attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 +
the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against
the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the
paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable
to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin.
If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is
just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has
completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the
death attack within the next 3 rounds.
If a death attack is attempted and fails (the
victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not
launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing
the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before
he can attempt another death attack.
Prayer Attack (Su): At 2nd level, a Red Mantis assassin
learns her signature assassination style. To initiate a
prayer attack, she holds her sawtooth sabre (or sabres) out,
point down, and weaves the blade in the air. She must be
within 30 feet of and visible to her victim. Beginning a prayer attack is a standard action, and causes her victim
to be fascinated by her unless he makes a Will save (DC
10 + the Red Mantis assassin’s class level + her Charisma
modifier—if she’s wielding two sawtooth sabres, this
DC gains a +2 bonus). She can maintain the fascination
effect by concentrating. The victim may attempt a new
save to escape fascination each time a threat (other than
the fascinating assassin) appears. At any point after 3
rounds, she may make a coup de grace attack against the
target, provided the target is still fascinated. Activating
or concentrating on maintaining a prayer attack does not
provoke an attack of opportunity.
So they both take 3 rounds to get off, but the core Assassin must attack his target with out it knowing. While the Red Mantis Assassin gets to use hers against a knowing target.
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I don't see Prayer Attack as at all superior to Death Attack. They're just different and have different advantages and drawbacks despite fulfilling a similar conceptual role.
Yeah it's that fascination effect -- plenty of problems with just that.
How is Prayer Attack better than Death Attack? Prayer is useless unless the PC is alone.
Pretend you have 2 red mantis assassins hiding in a house. The party walks into the house and they hide. They then start doing their Prayer Attack... two PCs fail their Will saves. But now in the following 2 rounds the PCs get to make new Will saves because there is a threat other than the RM assassin who fascinated them. Also, the other 4 PCs now have 2 rounds to kill or disable (or grapple or whatever) both assassins, and given their bad AC and hit points, it's not that hard. Or they could just drag the fascinated PC into another room and close the door. Or Obscuring Mist to stop the PC from being fascinated. There are so many ways to interrupt it, it's not even funny. The RM assassins will be lucky to do 1 hit point of damage before dying.
Compare that to two assassins hiding in a house. Two PCs are likely to eat death attacks, which is scary, and a much more credible threat.
Death Attack is much better than Prayer Attack for anything but solo kills.
I love the fluff and images around the RM assassins, but the RM assassin prestige class was not designed well at all.
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How is Prayer Attack better than Death Attack? Prayer is useless unless the PC is alone.
Pretend you have 2 red mantis assassins hiding in a house. The party walks into the house and they hide. They then start doing their Prayer Attack... two PCs fail their Will saves. But now in the following 2 rounds the PCs get to make new Will saves because there is a threat other than the RM assassin who fascinated them. Also, the other 4 PCs now have 2 rounds to kill or disable (or grapple or whatever) both assassins, and given their bad AC and hit points, it's not that hard. Or they could just drag the fascinated PC into another room and close the door. Or Obscuring Mist to stop the PC from being fascinated. There are so many ways to interrupt it, it's not even funny. The RM assassins will be lucky to do 1 hit point of damage before dying.
Compare that to two assassins hiding in a house. Two PCs are likely to eat death attacks, which is scary, and a much more credible threat.
Death Attack is much better than Prayer Attack for anything but solo kills.
I love the fluff and images around the RM assassins, but the RM assassin prestige class was not designed well at all.
If not RAW, it's certainly RAI that other Mantis assassins doing their prayer attacks don't break fascination.
And more minor, but the average party has 4 PCs and all encounters, APs, and modules are designed around that assumption, including the action economy. Of course 6 PCs are going to make things easier.
Yeah, with the prayer attack if the Red Mantis Assassin's target isn't absolutely alone the prayer attack will never work. A standard action from an ally ends the fascination, thus preventing the prayer attack. At that point the Red Mantis Assasin is screwed.
At leasty the Assassin can hide (hopefully well enough to avoid notice) for 3 rounds and then pop out and kill the target. Now, the combat that happens afterwards may kill the Assassin as well, but at least he will have gotten the job done.
First of all, my response was generally aimed at the numerous responses over various threads saying RM assassins are great, or even better than regular assassins. I love how they look but mechanically they are brutal imo. The most MAD class I've seen (Dex, Con, Chr).
If not RAW, it's certainly RAI that other Mantis assassins doing their prayer attacks don't break fascination.
The ability certainly doesn't mention this, it specifically says if there is another threat they get a new save each round. And the fascinate condition itself states a new saving throw for potential threats and they automatically break the effect on an obvious threat (such as drawn weapons).
Even if they don't get a new save each round, there are many ways to break the chain in 3 rounds if you have friends. Fascinate requires the target to be able to see and hear the caster. A single thunderstone or any dozen of effects that obscure vision stops the effect. Not to mention the RM assassin gets a coupe at the end, and even that can be interrupted by other PCs easily.
I could be wrong, but that's how it's played out so far (in practice, not theorycrafting).
And more minor, but the average party has 4 PCs and all encounters, APs, and modules are designed around that assumption, including the action economy. Of course 6 PCs are going to make things easier.
Good point but I still say in practice that a RM assassin doesn't get any kills using this ability. We had 5 PCs and 4 assassins and none of them came close to killing us with this ability. Another factor to consider, typically the saving throws are very low because RM assassin is a MAD class.
First, way to necro a thread from over 2 years ago.
Second, notice the word assassin in "Red Mantis Assassin"? Assassin's tend to work alone.
I'm doing research on the RM assassin because I'm GMing Curse of the Crimson Throne. Is that OK with you?
And you're incorrect on the second point. The PCs in CotCT encounter red mantis assassins at least 4 times over the AP and not once are they encountered alone (mostly with other RM assassins). Because if they were encountered alone, they'd suck even more.
In one PFS scenario , 4 of them were encountered at the same time. They were high level, we were low level, and we beat them easily, which is why I was looking into it.
It's designed for it's story purpose, not for it's wargaming attributes.
Fair enough, but I'm not trying to write a novel, I'm trying to write good encounters for my PCs and RM assassins are poor opponents as written.
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I played mine well enough to pose a challenge. That said I re-wrote them all. Cinnabar was a Ninja 6 prior to the RM levels. Ninja synergizes well to make less MAD.
The other mook RM's I made Half-Elf Rangers with Ancestral Arms (sawtooth sabre) to avoid the MAD by having lower DEX + favoured enemy was nice.
Don't be afraid to tweak the NPC's to make better encounters!
Ranger 6 /RMA is a good combo, especially urban ranger, or guide.
I was thinking of exactly the two suggestions you guys made, Urban Ranger or Ninja would both be much better than rogue/fighter to mix with this prestige class. The prestige class is still bad however.
Any other suggestions or play experience is welcome.
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I think the PrC is actually quite fun, especially after running them as NPC's.
I can't really comment on the Prayer Attack because I didn't try and employ it.
I did have a question though - I can't seem to find the PrC on the PRD or the SRD.
Did they change the name to something else on d20pfsrd like they had to do with some of the other golarion specific classes/archetypes?
unrelated, but I have always wondered why its considered bad form here to necro old threads? I could see there being a case made for it being better to have fewer threads and the related information being found in one place.
For every poster who will jump someone's case for necroing an old thread, some other poster will jump someone's case for not using the forum search before posting a new thread.
Some people feel it necessary to make themselves feel better about who they are by being jerks on the internet.
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unrelated, but I have always wondered why its considered bad form here to necro old threads? I could see there being a case made for it being better to have fewer threads and the related information being found in one place.
Oh, it's just a game people play on the internet. One you can't win.
If you instead created a brand new thread on the topic, the *exact same people* would take you to task for retreading a bunch of old stuff instead of searching and reading the threads where it had all been discussed before.
The only time I care about thread necro-ing is when someone necros a thread in which I said something idiotic (which, over a long enough stretch of time, is pretty much all of them). :)
Some things I prefer to stay buried, since, on the internet, it's impossible to kill all the witnesses to your youthful indiscretions.
Let me guess, you had a spell caster in your party.
That's the thing, we didn't have a spellcaster. They didn't have invisibility, so they needed to tumble past us to get into flanking positions. They failed and we just tore them up. Martials destroy them, spellcasters aren't needed.
And like I said, the DC on the Prayer Attack is so low (DC 14 Will for a CR8 threat) that no on ever succumbs to it, and if they do it isn't a big deal.
To the point of the OP, I think the RMA attack is better than the assassin, if for nothing else than for the difference in the saving throws. I had a PC as an assassin, and it was so frustrating to spend the three rounds studying only to find again and again that the targe passed their saving throw. I worked w/ my GM to reinvent the character later as a RMA, and found he was much more versitile in general, and more successful w/ the Prayer Attack. Plus, if they pass a save it's probably going to be the first save, and you didn't waste 3 rounds before finding that out.
Also, it was possible to use the prayer attack in the middle of battle. Prior to this, a common scenario was me telling the party to wait behind while I snuck in and tried a death attack, only to have them rush in once it failed. With the RMA, the common scenario was to activate See Invisibility from the helmet, look for the hidden caster in the back of the room, head back there and fascinate him while his allies were unaware of what was going on until it was too late ("why is that bug dancing in the corner?). Meanwhile, the rest of the team was engaging the main force or BBEG, and generally keeping my back clear. Very effective...
... on the internet, it's impossible to kill all the witnesses to your youthful indiscretions.
Have you tried the RMA for this? Computer screens should add a penalty to any fascinate save. :)