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UC Feats and why DMs would allow-- wait, no, scratch that... and how in the hell did they get through playtesting?!:
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not one who purchased a copy of the UC, never had the slightest interest, but in our session tonight we saw some Feats in play and saw another couple feats that could be in play next session and I have to ask how on earth they got published!
PC can Charge through allies' squares with this Feat. That's cool, no problem. Solid Feat, equal to Weapon Spec or Lightning Ref or Skill Focus.
But wait, there's more:
+2 Save on Sleep, AND Paralysis, AND Stunning effects.
That's one Feat, folks, not two.
But wait, there's more:
Deal 1-&-1/2 times damage on your first unarmed strike.
That's three Feat-level benefits for the price of ONE Feat with essentally NO prereqs. Oh, you're likely gonna be a Monk.
But wait, there's more:
You can ignore difficult terrain when you run, charge or withdraw.
Seriously?
Did no one question this during playtest?
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And there's another, I think it's , that lets the PC get an AoO everytime someone misses him as an Immediate Action.
Now, I dunno if anyone actually playtested this or questioned it -- maybe it doesn't sound as bad as it really is, but we've dealt with it for two sessions, now and it is the most gawd-awful, broken crap I've seen since Chris Perkins' Book of Exalted and Stupidly Broken Deeds back in 3E.
I'm not even gonna look at the other Broken-Monk-Style Feats; those two are absolutely ridiculous!
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The Monk is pretty darn "viable" in our group w/out Snake Style. 8 PCs and his is far-and-away the best AC. Plus, only the pure tank Fighter is gonna hit more often and do more damage per Full Attack. But even then, our Monk, adding all the AoOs, is getting his Full Attack plus about 4 or 5 Immediate Action strikes every round.
The other seven PCs get to go once each round. The Monk is going about four times each round. (And slowing down the Dm cuz he's got to deal with so many Immediate Actions during his monsters' turns.)
I can't believe others don't have a huge problem with this.
I was gonna dip this for my PBP Samurai...then I remembered I was awesome already.
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You can only use one immediate action per turn. It counts as using your swift action for your next turn.
The Monk is pretty darn "viable" in our group. 8 PCs and his is far-and-away the best AC. Plus, only the pure tank Fighter is gonna hit more often and do more damage per Full Attack. But even then, our Monk, adding all the AoOs is getting his Full Attack plus about 4 or 5 Immediate Action strikes every round.
The other seven PCs get to go once each round. The Monk is going about four times each round. (And slowing down the Dm cuz he's got to deal with so many Immediate Actions during his monsters' turns.)
You are allowing too many attacks. One Immediate action per round.
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Don't forget Dragons Ferocity the next in the chain... lol you will really blow a gasket with this one and if your a Monk archetype Master of Many styles you can grab both Dragon Style and Dragons Ferocity at 1st and 2nd level.
Dragons Ferocity
Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style, Stunning Fist, Acrobatics 5 ranks.
Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.
Special: Taking this feat allows you to qualify for the Elemental Fist feat even if you do not meet that feat’s prerequisites. If you do not meet that feat’s prerequisites, you must choose one of the damage types that feat offers, and you can use only that damage type with your Elemental Fist attacks until you meet the feat’s normal prerequisites. A monk with this feat can use Elemental Fist as if he were a monk of the four winds.
Master of Many Styles
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path.
You can only get one Immediate per round and he is still limited to the normal number of AoO. So unless he has a super dex 5-6 a round period.
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You will really blow a gasket with this one (Dragon's Ferocity)
No I won't, like I said earlier, I won't even look at these things anymore -- and sure as hell won't let them in my game.
Instead I'll pat myself on the back for swearing to not buy the UC back when they first announced they were gonna publish it in a year hence -- and let everyone else know not to buy one.
I guess the only thing that really sucks about this is I lose some respect for Paizo.
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I think they can handle that. They're professional like that.
In the meantime, make sure that player isn't getting more than one immediate action a round, and that he isn't taking an immediate and swift action in the same round. That will curb his Snake Style to the one AoO per round it was intended to be.
I like it. Another thing that let's martials knock casters of their soapbox.
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I think (Paizo) can handle that. They're professional like that.
Absolutely.
Still the greatest publishers the industry has ever seen.Wish we had Monte Cook, Wolfgang Baur, Robin Laws and Skip Williams.
In the meantime, make sure that player isn't getting more than one immediate action a round, and that he isn't taking an immediate and swift action in the same round. That will curb his Snake Style to the one AoO per round it was intended to be.
Thanks!
Master of Many styles archetype i would assume Dennis.
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I'm sure he's got Combat Style Mastery -- if he can get it by 13th level he's got it.
And there's nothing fishy with this Player -- he's really honest and an excellent rules-player. He was on the Boards quite a bit when he made the character discussing how it all works; he does that. Meanwhile I avoid the Rules Forum; I have such a low esteem for gaming rules. And he and the DM have gone over it all thoroughly -- I just never care to pay attention.
I noticed it tonight when he recommended I should take Dragon Style so I could charge through friendly squares, (I'm also playing a Pally), and after seeing the Feat on the d20PFSRD I became ill.
I'll email him about the Immediate Actions and AoOs.
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No I won't, like I said earlier, I won't even look at these things anymore -- and sure as hell won't let them in my game.Instead I'll pat myself on the back for swearing to not buy the UC back when they first announced they were gonna publish it in a year hence -- and let everyone else know not to buy one.
I guess the only thing that really sucks about this is I lose some respect for Paizo.
Can you turn down the rhetoric Ray? Things like this and 'how the hell did they get through playtesting' don't really add to the discussion and are more like attacks on Paizo.
I understand you don't like them. I personally don't find UC all that hot myself, and haven't even done more than skimmed it.
However, telling someone they shouldn't buy something because you don't like it is kind of arrogant. They might have no problem with the power of it, and you're trying to deny them possible enjoyment. I feel you're trying to force your own way of playing on everyone else.
Paizo serves more than just your playstyle. By all means give your opinion, but let others decide how much they agree with it please.
Pretty sure his DEX is 30.
All PCs have uber stats.
PCs are 13th level.
Ah I got it you are complaining these feats are too weak....I was wondering for a second there. 30 Dex is broken at 13the level without this or any other feat you care to mention.
Not that games at that powerlevel can't challenging or fun...the GM just has to know how to run it.
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Can you turn down the rhetoric Ray? Things like this and 'how the hell did they get through playtesting' don't really add to the discussion and are more like attacks on Paizo.
Ah, you're right, you're right.
Chalk it off to being three in the morning and I can't go to sleep (not that that's necessarily the reason, mind you, but-).It always seems to come off differently when I write these things on the Boards than it does when I'm just chatting with other gamers.
(You sound) kind of arrogant ... I feel you're trying to force your own way of playing on everyone else.
Well, in real life I do have to admit to being really quite arrogant.
People like that about me, though.;)
I don't know about the second part of that, however. What I saw in tonight's session was 1 PC, out of 8, getting a good 20-25% of the combat time. (Using RAW as our rules-guys and DM knows them.)
If you look at a great many of my posts over the years regarding DMing advice and rules interpretations, I'm always quite vocal in my belief that the PCs, whatever their individual abilities, should be balanced with each other.
As DM I don't care how strong or weak a PC is, as long as it is as strong or weak as the other PCs. I can always adjust the monster. But when I see one PC so much stronger or weaker than the others, I try to work to adjust it, one way or the other.
And I don't really see that as a different play style -- maybe it is. I think it's more like Hoyle's Law: Whatever the game, Whatever the Rules, the same rules apply to both sides -- implying that no one side, in our case no one PC, should be greater or lesser than another.
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On our Ability scores:
The DM had us use an 83 point buy where 1pt = 1pt.
Plus, we each got a Tome of.... +5 back at, like, 10th level or something for an awesome inherent bonus.
Adding Headbands and Belts and such and you end up with 8 PCs all with uber Ability scores.
My Wizard has a 32 INT and an 16 CON; she's human.
The Monk is an Earth Genasi -- well, Oread.
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Something to keep in mind is that combat time does not equal combat power.
Excellent point.
One of the other gamers (the pure tank Fighter) showed a bit of frustration at the combat time inequality -- I think that's what made me notice it.
On a side note:
I don't want you guys to think we have a bad group or that this is a problem in our game -- we're all mature gamers having tons of fun. My OP is all about my hating some broken Feats in the UC.
And you gotta admit, that Dragon Style Feat that I laid out in the OP is ridiculous.
Pretty sure his DEX is 30.
All PCs have uber stats.
PCs are 13th level.
Didn't I spank you for these ridiculous stats in another thread?
I'm constantly surprised that so many people post here with the crazy idea that everybody is going to jump on their hate bandwagon with the snap of their fingers.
I am happy with all the books. I use them with great happiness and no problems. I am surprised that you are not now telling me how right I am.
See how annoying that is?
Note regarding Snake style; unlike some posters in the thread I think it is clear that the AOOs generated by Snake Fang are only limited by the number of AOOs the character has. Since the character may as an immediate action do an additional attack on the AOO.
Also keep in mind that the monk will use his 3/4 BAB (either because he's a master of many styles and gives up flurry, or simply because on an AOO he needs to use his "normal" BAB).
Other than that:
83 pt-buy, 1-for-1 and a +5 tome at level 10.
...I see where the game went wrong.
The monk is a MAD class; but if you give the monk a circumstance where the MAD doesn't matter - then he's going to be an amazingly powerful class to play. I'd be surprised if he started with less than 18 for Str, Dex, Con and Wis; with choice racials to improve those.
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Note regarding Snake style; unlike some posters in the thread I think it is clear that the AOOs generated by Snake Fang are only limited by the number of AOOs the character has. Since the character may as an immediate action do an additional attack on the AOO.
Not having read the feat before, I see you are right.
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Okay, let me be clear, as the one actually IN the game.
The game has NOT gone wrong.
The game is awesome;
The Players are great; the PCs are great.
Everyone is having a blast and barely escaping some encounters with our PC's lives.
(Except the fight last night against the Gargantuan Green Dragon that ambushed us; that one was not so bad -- our battle Cleric died cuz he didn't heal himself after taking the full BW; he charged instead! On the other hand, the fight against the Marilith, 2 Nalfeshnee and 8 Hezrou was terrifying; I thought we were gonna have to teleport away -- instead the Mari teleported away JUST before I could throw a Dimensional Anchor on her.)
The game is fine.
We're equally overpowered; the monsters are MUCH tougher than EL13 or 14.
When one PC has the SAME Ability scores as ALL the others, it's not broken. (The monsters & encounters just have to be built up, too.)
Whether or not you agree with my observation that Dragon Style is ridiculously broken because it allows a 3rd level Monk (w/ standard pt buy) to ignore rough terrain while charging, running or withdrawing, AND alows the same 3rd level Monk to charge through friendly squars, AND gives him a +2 to three kinds of situational Saves AND lets him punch 1/rd using 1&1/2 times his STR or whether you don't agree with my observation -- that has nothing to do with our game.
As for Snake Style, the reason I mentioned it second in my OP, and didn't detail it the way I did for Dragon Style is because I don't know the Feat -- I don't know how the PC uses it in conjunction with Style Mastery or whatever. Mine was an attack against Dragon Style -- which the Player of the Monk recommended I take for my own PC -- and I wanted to include other Feats in my OP so as to attack much of the UC. An attack that I stand behind, right or wrong, whether you agree or not. That's my prerogative as a consumer and Charter Subscriber.
In our game, I privately mentioned to the Player of the Monk that I wouldn't allow Snake Style in my own games because one PC should not be significantly greater than the other PCs. It is not right that, especially in a game of 8 PCs, one PC goes 3 or 4 times each round while the other 7 go only once. RAW be damned. This because another Player seemed a bit frustrated that the Monk was going more times than everyone else (not that that bothered the game too much -- just, 8 PCs, high level, fights take a long time). And, many thanks to Kyrt-Ryder for pointing out that more time on ones turn does not necessarily mean more power. I don't mind reconsidering the Feats and appropriate Archetype though I'm pretty sure I won't allow them; I'll look at them again fresh if it comes up in one of my games (as DM).
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It's not that he's going more than other players, he just has an interrupt ability. Which, oddly enough, interrupts other peoples turns. :)
Once he goes up against something that never misses him, or the monsters wise up and attack someone else who can't hit them when they miss, his interrupts will suddenly not be happening.
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When one PC has the SAME Ability scores as ALL the others, it's not broken. (The monsters & encounters just have to be built up, too.)
False, as it was already mentioned earlier in the thread.
Your Wizard needs just one stat, Intelligence. So in fact, the fact if the game is 10pt buy, 25pt buy or 83pt buy doesn't change much for him. He may have 20 STR and 89 CHA, neither of those changes much in his core ability - to cast spells.
Whereas any martial class and Monk in particular is MAD, so the point buy directly affects how he stacks up against the rest of the party. A 10pt buy Monk is a whole different story than a Monk from your group.
Classes were NOT designed to be balanced (in general) and certainly not in relation to what they need from ability scores. That's one thing you need to get out of your head.
Also, I'm going to beat a dead horse, but baseline Monks suck. Badly. It's the APG/UM/UC stuff that allows them to function at a level comparable level to other classes.
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Well, I'm not gonna argue MAD vs SAD, here, I agree that SAD Classes are better. I have always said, though, in other topics, that the Classes are problematic in being either MAD or SAD precisely because of Balance. Yes, Wizard is SAD while Monk and Pally are MAD -- that's unfortunate.
But, beating on a dead horse here myself -- I'm not talking about Class balance. Or Ability score balance. My OP has NOTHING to do with any of that. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel.
Just attacking a couple stupidly broken, badly designed Feats.
As far as your dead horse, I'm not optimizer enough to join a conversation about Core Monks being too weak. I know lots of gamers say they are; I won't argue. I know in my own games I've seen Monks that are solid -- one must expect them to be as combat effective as Rogues, Druids, Clerics and other medium BAB, medium HP Classes. Not Fighters! Over the summer I ran a game where someone ran a Monk that was, as popular opinion holds, WEAK. He and I tinkered & struggled for a few sessions trying to make him stronger; eventually we just killed him and had him build another PC. This could certainly be the fault of the design. It could also be my weakness as a DM or his weakness in trying to make his particular Monk fight as effectively as a full BAB PC. I dunno.
I don't think, however, that one can legitimately say that one Core Class is so weak that we should design stronger Feats for them so they can be stronger. But there's not much vehemence or conviction there, just a "Hmmm, I dunno think it's right."
EDIT:
If I were to try to "reinvent the wheel" the first thing I would do is destroy the current Ability Scores and that system and rebuild it where MAD and SAD Classes did not exist.
But that's a WHOLE other topic.
So, you're playing ridiculously overpowered characters, and are complaining that some of the feats, which were designed for reasonable characters, are ridiculously overpowered.
That's special.
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If you can hustle through an ally's square in combat, and if an enemy can sidestep you when you make an overrun attempt, then why the hell can't your allies sidestep you when you charge through their space?
That's an interesting Houserule, one I wouldn't mind playtesting in my own games.
But, ya know, in RAW you can't do it -- it'd be a good question for The Sage, why Skip Williams designed it the way he did.
Anyhoo, I think it'd be a good Feat to make, where one could charge through friendly squares, maybe a prereq of BAB +1 or +4 or something.
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So, you're playing ridiculously overpowered characters, and are complaining that some of the feats, which were designed for reasonable characters, are ridiculously overpowered.
That's special.
Ayup,
I'm special.
....
It's not as bad as it sounds, though, one expects things to be over-the-top in high-powered Campaigns where all the PCs and all the monsters are overpowered.
But we're overpowering this particular game only -- and overpowering with conscious, rule-bending exceptions: Point buy, gold & treasure.
There's a difference between that (purposely bending rules) and a series of RAW Feats in a book supposedly designed, like you say, for reasonable PCs, that makes a Player stop and say, "Wow, that Feat is broken." ESPECIALLY in a game where all the PCs are overpowered.
Thanks for helping my point, L.B.!
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There's a difference between...(purposely bending rules) and a series of RAW Feats in a book supposedly designed, like you say, for reasonable PCs, that makes a Player stop and say, "Wow, that Feat is broken." ESPECIALLY in a game where all the PCs are overpowered.
Hmmm,
But I guess one of the points someone was trying to make earlier was that those Feats (Snake Style & Master of Many Styles), wouldn't be so bad with standard Ability Scores. But they show up in high-powered games.That's valid.
Well lets actually look at dragon style itself:
It requires:
Str 15 (not exactly low... in fact more than what is needed for power attack)
Improved Unarmed strike (okay for a monk this isn't really an issue but anyone else is going to have deal with this)
Acrobatics 3 ranks (in general not an issue)
And you have to use a swift action to use it at the start of combat, potentially a problem for spell casters that might like this feat, or inquisitors, paladins, magus or other characters that spend swift actions fairly easily -- not a huge deal, but worth noting, and you can't start combat with it up.
It grants a +2 on sleep, paralysis, and stunning... hmm... that's significantly less than great fortitude and takes a lot more to get into.
Ignoring difficult terrain is the nice part... but it's only while charging, running or withdrawing which is limited... no free five foot steps like nimble moves would do, but charging through squares with allies is nice... but probably rarely an issue. Also nimble moves and acrobatic steps would allow you to always ignore 20 foot of difficult terrain, and that's ignoring spells like feather step and mass feather step and actual flight.
Adding 1/2 your strength bonus to damage on your first attack is also a nice ability -- it'll pay off more at higher levels... but it's limited to only unarmed strikes which means the two handed fighter isn't going to see much use for this.
Dragon Ferocity requires:
Dragon Style
Stunning Fist (which means if you aren't a monk this isn't happening before level 8 at the earliest.
However the effect is pretty solid -- if you like hitting things with your hands. The elemental fist special is nice, meaning that feat isn't going to be a complete waste of time but yeah that's still just another feat tax in order to get full benefits from this.
Finally we land on Dragon Roar:
You get 1 extra stunning fist a day... that's fairly underwhelming actually. I mean I would expect two from a feat that just does that. The cone effect is... underwhelming if you aren't a monk -- a standard action for a 15 foot cone that does 1d4+whatever you have for unarmed strike with a DC based on your wisdom simply isn't going to cause anyone to fear you if you aren't a monk... especially when you have to wait until level 9 to do it.