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This is not the first time I've heard this idea. Once as a PC I had a wand of summon monster I that summoned dire rat. Yes, dire rat (singular). It was the same rat every time. And he remembered every single indignant, dangerous, soul-flensing task. That rat hated me so much when I finally used that last charge. And he told all his extraplanar friends so I got to deal with that for the rest of the campaign.
It's not a bad idea. In fact, if played correctly it could be a hilarious idea. Not every dire rat gets to put on a possibly trapped crown and dance around the room chanting "I am the rat king!"
You do not lose access to a particular kind of summoned creature when it is killed. If you only ever had access to one of each kind, you could never summon multiple creatures, which most summoning spells clearly allow you to do.
Heck, with the right build, you could summon 8 to 9 creatures with a single casting. All summoners also have the option of casting the spell multiple times and summoning multiple groups of the same kind of creature.
Therefore the only logical conclusion is that the "creature pool" you are summoning from is theoretically infinite.
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You do not lose access to a particular kind of summoned creature when it is killed. If you only ever had access to one of each kind, you could never summon multiple creatures, which most summoning spells clearly allow you to do.
Heck, with the right build, you could summon 8 to 9 creatures with a single casting. All summoners also have the option of casting the spell multiple times and summoning multiple groups of the same kind of creature.
Therefore the only logical conclusion is that the "creature pool" you are summoning from is theoretically infinite.
8-9? I know of superior summons and 15th level power of demon soreror, but please per tell, what be others?
8-9? I know of superior summons and 15th level power of demon soreror, but please per tell, what be others?You do not lose access to a particular kind of summoned creature when it is killed. If you only ever had access to one of each kind, you could never summon multiple creatures, which most summoning spells clearly allow you to do.
Heck, with the right build, you could summon 8 to 9 creatures with a single casting. All summoners also have the option of casting the spell multiple times and summoning multiple groups of the same kind of creature.
Therefore the only logical conclusion is that the "creature pool" you are summoning from is theoretically infinite.
Maximize and Empower spell will net you 5 + (1d4+1)/2, or 6-7. Add 2 more for superior summons and the demon sorcerer. 8-9.
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I try to name some of my summons, especially if I use them often. Examples:
Earth Elementals: Rocky, Pebbles, Bam-bam, Flint, Shayle, Cliff, Clay, Sandy
Fire Elementals: Sparky, Ember, Flicka, Cole, Ashe
Water Elementals: Crick, Tinkles, Wave, Misty, Bubbles
Air Elementals: Wendy, Puff, Thundar, Aura, Storm
(Yeah, I mostly use earth elementals right now. They ROCK! lol)
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Maximize and Empower spell will net you 5 + (1d4+1)/2, or 6-7. Add 2 more for superior summons and the demon sorcerer. 8-9.8-9? I know of superior summons and 15th level power of demon soreror, but please per tell, what be others?You do not lose access to a particular kind of summoned creature when it is killed. If you only ever had access to one of each kind, you could never summon multiple creatures, which most summoning spells clearly allow you to do.
Heck, with the right build, you could summon 8 to 9 creatures with a single casting. All summoners also have the option of casting the spell multiple times and summoning multiple groups of the same kind of creature.
Therefore the only logical conclusion is that the "creature pool" you are summoning from is theoretically infinite.
thanks
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Maximize and Empower spell will net you 5 + (1d4+1)/2, or 6-7. Add 2 more for superior summons and the demon sorcerer. 8-9.
Alright, now this is funny. I was originally going to reply that it wouldn't be quite as good because RD included 2 extra critters from superior summoning but, despite applying two metamagic feats, there is still only one spell being cast so you'd only get 1 extra off of superior summoning.
BUT
Then I noticed for empower spell he was dividing by 2 instead of multiplying by 1.5! Being a conjurer more often then not, I'd neglected to consider this, but looking at it, the above example would play out as:
Maximized portion = 5 critters
Empowered portion = 1d4+1*1.5, or 3, 4, 6, or 7 critters. (ie. you roll a 1, add 1, and empower to 3, or roll a 4, add 1, and empower to 7.5 and round down to 7).
Superior Summoning portion = 1 critter
Final total: 9-13 critters...
Wow, yet again, I love summoning. That reminds me it might be time to get a rod of maximize spell and turn an empowered summon monster 5 into a truly terrifying number of lantern archons!
Maximize and Empower spell will net you 5 + (1d4+1)/2, or 6-7. Add 2 more for superior summons and the demon sorcerer. 8-9.Alright, now this is funny. I was originally going to reply that it wouldn't be quite as good because RD included 2 extra critters from superior summoning but, despite applying two metamagic feats, there is still only one spell being cast so you'd only get 1 extra off of superior summoning.
BUT
Then I noticed for empower spell he was dividing by 2 instead of multiplying by 1.5! Being a conjurer more often then not, I'd neglected to consider this, but looking at it, the above example would play out as:
Maximized portion = 5 critters
Empowered portion = 1d4+1*1.5, or 3, 4, 6, or 7 critters. (ie. you roll a 1, add 1, and empower to 3, or roll a 4, add 1, and empower to 7.5 and round down to 7).
Superior Summoning portion = 1 critter
Final total: 9-13 critters...
Wow, yet again, I love summoning. That reminds me it might be time to get a rod of maximize spell and turn an empowered summon monster 5 into a truly terrifying number of lantern archons!
No, RD was right on the empowered part. Maximized allows you to get the maximum variable =5, Empower spell adds 50% (or 1d4+1/2).
I would have to look superior summon up, but I am guessing it should be just 1.
total : 7-8, still taking a spell of 4 levels higher if you use a maximize meta rod.
I try to name some of my summons, especially if I use them often. Examples:
Earth Elementals: Rocky, Pebbles, Bam-bam, Flint, Shayle, Cliff, Clay, Sandy
Fire Elementals: Sparky, Ember, Flicka, Cole, Ashe
Water Elementals: Crick, Tinkles, Wave, Misty, Bubbles
Air Elementals: Wendy, Puff, Thundar, Aura, Storm(Yeah, I mostly use earth elementals right now. They ROCK! lol)
I always call me summoned mount Tumbleweed, and Earth Elementals are bomb-diggity
Reaper Miniatures
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My Oracle summons a Lantern Archon. despite other creatures being on the list, he always chooses summon Lantern Archon. It's always the same one, too, a friendly archon named Rachiel that wants to prove his valor in combat and eventually be "promoted" to Hound archon. Rachiel tends to howl when he scores critical hits.
When I level next, I will get Hound Archon on my list, and At that point, I will summon Rachiel the newly promoted Hound Archon. If I still need to summon Lantern Archons, I have already named my stable of 1d4+1 Lanterns, and will be ready to pull them to battle - more lanterns now, because they think that assisting me will aid them in their eventual promotion to hound.
So I'd say yes, it's entirely possible to run Summons that way. Honestly, I prefer it, although I don not mandate it in games where I am the GM.
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No, RD was right on the empowered part. Maximized allows you to get the maximum variable =5, Empower spell adds 50% (or 1d4+1/2).
I would have to look superior summon up, but I am guessing it should be just 1.
total : 7-8, still taking a spell of 4 levels higher if you use a maximize meta rod.
I'm afraid I'm not following you here Remco. Let me throw out a couple examples and then you can correct them for me so I can better grasp what you're saying:
For empower spell: I'm applying it as follows: A maximized fireball from a level 10 caster would do 60 points of damage (10d6 maxed) while an empowered fireball from the same caster would do 15-90 points of damage (10d6*1.5). Is this how empower spell works?
In addition to that, my recollection is that if the above caster threw out a maximized AND empowered fireball, one would still roll the damage as normal to calculate the empowered damage, and then add 60 to this total for the final sum of damage for the spell (ie 75-150 damage all told). Correct or have I missed how these two feats interact?
Does this mean that I cannot "scout" a super dangeous room with a summoned monster?
You know, summon them, send them in and wait till they die, then re-summon them to find out what they saw...
According to RAW, that's correct.
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I can recall in LG (3.5) having a small bag of tricks and looking at a likely trapped hallway we needed to go down. No rogue. sigh. Pull a critter, roll the dice, and I get a cat. send him down the hall. BOOM.
pull another critter, another roll, and I get another cat.... boom.
again, roll... same cat.
again... cat looks at me accusingly. Really hated to send him down that hall that time.One of the other players chime in "guess that means the cat's out of the bag...."
Don't know what he was complaining about, he's got nine lives, you've only got one, amiright? ;)
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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This thread reminds me of a player in an old campaign I used to run. He ran a Wizard and used Summon spells a lot. Oddly enough, he always would summon Howlers, regardless of the level of the Summon spell. When I asked him why, his answer was "My PC hates Howlers and wants to see them eliminated from existence." When I pointed out that they weren't really dying, his response was "That's OK. This way, they get to die over and over again - and I get to watch." He always stated that if his PC ever ran into whatever source the summoned Howlers were coming from, he'd be in deep doo doo.
Howlers still come up as a point of amusement in my games.
Good times.
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Interaction questions
Verse you have the basics correct but you have missed on the interaction part but only just.
Empower Spell (Metamagic)
You can increase the power of your spells, causing them to deal more damage.Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
So what this means is that for a 10d6 fireball.
You roll 10d6(base dmg) + 1/2 of base dmg from empower = totalex you roll 30 on you 10d6 + empower increases this by 15 = for total of 45. The damage from the empower feat is 15 not the total of 45.
Your formula of 10d6*1.5 is correct for getting to the total of the empowered attack but does not represent the part of damage that empower added.
Now the way this interacts with Maximize. Since Maximize removes the variable effect of the dice by effectivly setting them all to 6. In order to get the empower feat you have to roll the dice.
So for this example maximize (10d6=60) + 1/2(10d6 rolled) for empower = total
ex max 60 + 1/2 rolled damage (lets say 40) = 80
I hope I was able to clear this up for you.
EDIT: Ninja'd by tjlatta
According to RAW, that's correct.Does this mean that I cannot "scout" a super dangeous room with a summoned monster?
You know, summon them, send them in and wait till they die, then re-summon them to find out what they saw...
And that's the only real reason said rule exists.
Note that you can still pull this trick off, you would just have to wait 24 hours in between castings.