I personally don't have any issue with presenting drow as either "Always Chaotic Evil" or "anything goes." In my game:
Ages ago, drow were "Always Chaotic Evil" demon worshippers. They launched a major offensive on the surface world, but were defeated. The descendents of those who were stranded on the surface have been universally branded as potential demon-worshippers and have magical brands on them which show demonic influence. The elven historians make sure that no one forgets what the drow almost accomplished. They are either killed on sight (elven lands), or slaves/poor (human lands). Most surface drow are just people, although being constantly told "you're a demon worshipper" turns more than a few bad, and only re-inforces the sterotype.
The players will have been brought up in this culture that says drow are all horrible monsters, and that's what I'll tell them if they ask, but...
Those drow who continued to live underground got over their "Always CE" phase after their defeat, and now live peacefully underground, with no desire to interact with the surface ever again. They have a perfectly normal, albeit underground (where it's very dangerous), society.
I have a world where both occurs. And I've never had too many complaints. Most people who play in my games, however, are warned up front that it's a homebrew world and they need to be aware that not all assumptions can be made without making their character land in a world of hurt in game.
In my world, the mortal plane is the only place where things can change alignment. So outsiders don't like coming there for real, as they might actually get corrupted (the old fallen angel fallen demon/devil stories). This also means that no race is Always <blah> if they are mortal. Angels are Always Good, unless they come to the physical plane (they have to make bodies for themselves out of the stuff of mortal world, and when they do, that mortal material can corrupt them if they fail).
So Drow are 'Usually' lawful evil (drow never act chaotic, if you look at all the descriptions of them), but not always. They don't worship spiders, they have an unhealthy attraction to spiders, but that's more because of how intricate and patient spiders are, which fits their long ranged rigid planning practices.
But yeah, I've never had anyone complain all that loud about 'good' drow or 'good' orcs or anything else.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My big question: If the main drow society is evil, why are they exiling ANYONE? I would think that those who do not toe the party line would swiftly find themselves sold to slavery, sacrificed for dark rituals, or simply killed and their remains thrown into the nearest bottomless pit.
So, something to consider: Who are the special cases that do get exiled? Chilfren of powerful nobles? Blessed by Lloth?
, personally, love moral ambiguity in my games and enjoy when the players have to second guess charging into some random orc encampment.
My big question: If the main drow society is evil, why are they exiling ANYONE? I would think that those who do not toe the party line would swiftly find themselves sold to slavery, sacrificed for dark rituals, or simply killed and their remains thrown into the nearest bottomless pit.
So, something to consider: Who are the special cases that do get exiled? Chilfren of powerful nobles? Blessed by Lloth?
, personally, love moral ambiguity in my games and enjoy when the players have to second guess charging into some random orc encampment.
I don't think it is so much as they are exiled by the other drow, as they flee into exile.
I think people are so use to certain races always being evil that it is a shock to see otherwise. It took my players a while to accept that not all goblins were XP bait, and had people rights when I ran Eberron. The paladin was about to kill one, and I had to remind him they had rights like people. They wanted things in B&W. I don't run like that though.
I have the same problem.
I have had TPKs because my players refused to grasp the idea of goblins or orcs with class levels.
I try to warn them by saying "roll an intelligence check" and then regardless of the roll i tell the melee classes that these guys appear to be some kind of special forces better trained than your average goblin and much better armed.
for some reason it takes some players a few deaths and flat out explinations before they grasp the concept.
.... interestingly, players also seem to not understand the concept of NPCs as min/maxed as they are. I once had a guy walk out on a game because his min/maxed character got totally owned by a similarly min/maxed NPC... some how that was an example of the GM cheating.
.... I may make a thread about that ^_^
In the game world I'm running, it's the *society* of underdark dwelling drow that makes them evil. They're ruled by an oligarchy of demon-worshipers who have crushed all other systems of belief. Those in charge thrive on cruelty, and the rest have to adapt and participate lest they be victimized in turn, which in turn desensitizes each generation to cruelty and violence. Those who have fled and live in different societies have the normal gamut of alignments.
Orcs are essentially the same way - a humanoid race augmented for use as tough but expendable grunts, and conditioned to violence much like child soldiers are. Again, some aberrations will inevitably crop up but the race as a whole is indoctrinated to value aggression and those that are different must either flee or be killed. Due to the reputation of their kind (not unjustified), these outsiders aren't exactly welcomed by most, either.
They're not evil in the same way that demons or undead are - they are not literally *made* from evil, but they have been instilled with evil values and that is the way most know how to live.
A good example was the Point of View of a Zentradi deserter in the later part of the Robotech saga - he was sick of building and being peaceful and all the complexities of civilization. He wanted to smash things, feel powerful and take his frustration out on everything around him.
I'd imagine Orcs are a lot like that - even when they're at "peace", they don't feel at peace.
I've already gotten into deep s$$& for screwing with orc society by making orcs aligned along the same lines as humans. My players were pissed. Am I likely to get a similar reaction for messing with the drow?
As others have stated, depends on the players. I don't think it would be difficult to find players open to such a game. (Example: I find regular orcs boring. I prefer my orcs to resemble these guys.)
I imagine orcs (and other races) to be much like the Orcs in the book "ORCS" by Stan Nicholls
they are not so much evil... as they simply have a different view on how the world should be. they believe in the law of nature and survival of the fittest. they have a different social structure and their religion opposes the sedentary life and high level technology.
they are evil from a civilized humans point of view... but then again to be perfectly honest humans by this measure would be evil from an elf point of view.
but once again... on an individual level an orc is under no obligation to eat small children and pillage towns as an ultimate goal of existance.
I've already gotten into deep s$$& for screwing with orc society by making orcs aligned along the same lines as humans. My players were pissed. Am I likely to get a similar reaction for messing with the drow?As others have stated, depends on the players. I don't think it would be difficult to find players open to such a game. (Example: I find regular orcs boring. I prefer my orcs to resemble these guys.)
These are pretty much my gnomes/goblins
|
These are pretty much my gnomes/goblins
Gnomes and Goblins being two sides of the same coin, one from the brighter and louder and more energetic 'First World' and the other from the darker and more sinister plane of Shadow (where the unseelie fey hold court), is the way I like them.
Ditto Elves and Hobgoblins (although the Hobgoblins are more dark elf, and less football-headed hooligans, and utterly replace the standard dark elves).
Similarly, the last goblinoid race, the Bugbears, are also the shadowy unseelie counterpart to a fey humanoid race that came from the First World with the elves and gnomes. But nobody who wasn't around those many centuries ago remembers that race, because the Bugbears did such a thorough job of killing them all.
In the First World and Plane of Shadow, there are 'fey-er' versions of all of the above races, as advanced and magical to their material world counterparts as noble drow are to 'common' drow, or 4e eladrin to standard elves.
Each of the counterpart races (gnome/goblin, elf/hobgoblin) has racial hate bonuses against their reflections, and bugbears race-hate *everyone...*
These are pretty much my gnomes/goblinsGnomes and Goblins being two sides of the same coin, one from the brighter and louder and more energetic 'First World' and the other from the darker and more sinister plane of Shadow (where the unseelie fey hold court), is the way I like them.
Ditto Elves and Hobgoblins (although the Hobgoblins are more dark elf, and less football-headed hooligans, and utterly replace the standard dark elves).
Similarly, the last goblinoid race, the Bugbears, are also the shadowy unseelie counterpart to a fey humanoid race that came from the First World with the elves and gnomes. But nobody who wasn't around those many centuries ago remembers that race, because the Bugbears did such a thorough job of killing them all.
In the First World and Plane of Shadow, there are 'fey-er' versions of all of the above races, as advanced and magical to their material world counterparts as noble drow are to 'common' drow, or 4e eladrin to standard elves.
Each of the counterpart races (gnome/goblin, elf/hobgoblin) has racial hate bonuses against their reflections, and bugbears race-hate *everyone...*
Crap, I meant Gnomes/Halflings, not Gnomes/Goblins. Man do I feel dumb now...
*Edit* I should have also stated that gmones or halflings in my setting don't exist. They have been replaced with a race I have created (when I find the write up on them I'll post them, but they look like the Asura from GW2). Hobgoblins and Bugbears don't exist either. Instead I'm somewhat using the goblins from Iron Kingdoms.
|
|
Always interesting in context to imagine creature races as being more versitile; if humans and their PC counterpart can be any (but have specific tendencies), it can be imagined NPCs are the same way.
Players do often want "gratification" monsters, monsters they can kill with little moral dilema. When you start introducing non-evil drows, goblins, and their ilk; you break this a little. You can do it on some part, but you risk alienating players somewhat. Imagine if Dragons weren't color-coded for the paladin's convenience of heart.
In my worlds.
Halflings are like Dragon Lance Kender
Dwarves are standard but there is some complex stuff about race variation
Elves are elves but you only see male elves running around the world. that is because female elves are dryads that live in the heart of elven forests. this is of course a deep secret the general world does not know.
humans are humans.
Gnomes are basically the dwarf/halfling equivalent to half-elves. as neurotic as halflings but tend to focus on a specific goal like dwarves do. the race long ago formed its own community where they play an important role in the economy of the world. since they breed true (unlike half-elves and half-orcs which are generally sterile) they came to be generally known as a new race.
all goblinoids are one race and the stats of different races are used to represent them at different ages from goblin to hobgoblin to bugbear and something stronger than that and sometimes Oger stats are used for truely large ones close to dieing.
Orcs are a race that exists on a different continent (more like a very large island) they are similar to mongol hoards raiding and waring with each other until some becomes strong enough to unite them and usually leads them on a great war against the civilized lands.
;tldr
If you want to see how to handle good drow then I suggest that you read some of the works of R.A. Salvatore. He pretty much invented the concept of good drow in the Forgotten Realms setting.
As for my opinion. If you start having large groups of individuals that are from an evil race who are not evil themselves then you devalue them as villains. You not only devalue the evil ones but you also take away from the good ones for story purposes. Good individuals from evil races should be rare.
Personally I would love to play in such a game, I have always liked the drow because they are much more complex and deeper to me. All other races seem to fit a sort of cookie mold or with in certain limits, even humans are seen as all arounders with a case by case system but turn out to be predictable once you get a grip on their "role". Drow on the other hand to me always seem to be layered in such a way that they can surprise you alot more. Ok my little man crush is over let me get to the point. ;)
I would not play the new age good drow vs the traditional bad drow. I would find it much more interesting to play the old guard against the risen "weaklings". I always liked Sshamath because it broke the role that the drow had in the setting but did not do a complete turn around. I would say if your players are willing make the other drow N or LN. The other drow were seen as weak but they consider those that exiled them to be weak, limited by their traditions and views they do not grow as they have.
Just my thoughts.
In my worlds.
Halflings are like Dragon Lance Kender
Dwarves are standard but there is some complex stuff about race variation
Elves are elves but you only see male elves running around the world. that is because female elves are dryads that live in the heart of elven forests. this is of course a deep secret the general world does not know.
humans are humans.
Gnomes are basically the dwarf/halfling equivalent to half-elves. as neurotic as halflings but tend to focus on a specific goal like dwarves do. the race long ago formed its own community where they play an important role in the economy of the world. since they breed true (unlike half-elves and half-orcs which are generally sterile) they came to be generally known as a new race.
all goblinoids are one race and the stats of different races are used to represent them at different ages from goblin to hobgoblin to bugbear and something stronger than that and sometimes Oger stats are used for truely large ones close to dieing.
Orcs are a race that exists on a different continent (more like a very large island) they are similar to mongol hoards raiding and waring with each other until some becomes strong enough to unite them and usually leads them on a great war against the civilized lands.
Clarify, please. Are you saying half-elves/orcs are typically sterile in your campaign, or in general?
in my campeign half-elves and half-orcs cant have children. on rare occasions a half elf male can have a child with a human female but the child retains no elf heritage.
also... Undead... especially things like zombies, skeletons, vampires etc are extreamly rare.
I think the key would be to make sure that the prospective players understand that "non-evil" does not automatically mean "good." As several posters have stated, having neutral drow shouldn't be a problem even if having a city full of Drizz't clones who have completely disavowed traditional drow ways could get problematic very quickly. I think with your posted backstory, though, it should be just fine, as it clearly leans toward the former case of simply being nuetral.
Well, I decided to read the description of the Asura in Guild Wars 2...and they're basically like my Xenoa in every way. Now I feel like I'm ripping them off.
Well, I decided to read the description of the Asura in Guild Wars 2...and they're basically like my Xenoa in every way. Now I feel like I'm ripping them off.
Don't. After all: Simpsons did it! Simpsons did it!
Well, I decided to read the description of the Asura in Guild Wars 2...and they're basically like my Xenoa in every way. Now I feel like I'm ripping them off.Don't. After all: Simpsons did it! Simpsons did it!
Good point. I guess I'll have to change their background some so that is more different then the Asura from GW2.
I interprete the Drow as being similar to the Draka: a culture focused on slavery and warmongering, dominated by people who are surprisingly pleasant people to talk to... ...yet who would still do horrible things to you if they thought it would serve their purposes.
Really, if you look back into history, you can find a lot of civilizations that their neighbors would declare "Always Chaotic Evil" due to their actions. The Roman Empire's entire economy was based on waging war on it's neighbors and enslaving people to use as a workforce. The Aztecs captured people from rival tribes to use as Human Sacrifices. The Mongols, under Genghis Khan, waged wars of brutal devastation, slaughtering people and destroying entire cities.
exactly.
An idea I've been playing with for a long time is a city of outcasts. In one room of The Cleaves, there was Loser town. It's built on a surface of junk and garbage, at the bottom of a rift, and led by a vampire halfling and a neutral drider. Basically, every that violates race stats and survives, ends up here. Your good orcs and drow will end up there. A drizzle clone might run for mayor. Note that losertown pays protection to goblins in the form of vampire blood and Drider venom(which in this case is sleep poison). Most of the citizens are mongrel men. It's at the bottom of a gigantic rift.