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Banner (Ex): At 5th level, a cavalier's banner becomes a symbol of inspiration to his allies and companions. As long as the cavalier's banner is clearly visible, all allies within 60 feet receive a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls made as part of a charge. At 10th level, and every five levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1. The banner must be at least Small or larger and must be carried or displayed by the cavalier or his mount to function.
So.. since in PFS OP you can't just wing something with your GM, just how does the nuts and bolts of this rule actually work, spelled out without any need for interpretation? Particuarly, what counts as a 'banner' and how much is a PC supposed to pay for it?
PFS OP has recently brought in a stress on asian-inclusiveness. Has anyone noticed a sashimono (samurai back-banners) being listed as equipment, and if so, a reference? I assume this would have to meet any and all criteria for the cavalier banner rule perfectly.
What about having a crest painted on a shield? Would the 'clearly visible' clause allow for it to still apply if the shield were slung across the back whilst fighting with a two-handed weapon? Would the shield have any prerequisites on quality? (ie, can a non-masterwork/magic shield be called 'your banner')
The iconic cavalier appears to simply have a pennant attached to his lance. Mebbe I'm assuming too much here but I imagine that's his cavalier's banner. Would carring a banner in this way (non-equipped lance poking up from your back/hip like a flagpole) satisfy the rules?
If so, what about the 99% of the time when he's dismounted.. can the lance be carried solely to 'display the banner'?
Is there any 'writer's intent' that a Cavalier must devote a free hand to 'equiping' a banner in order to benefit from this rule? I don't see one.. but you never know what some people will insist on..
Do those fromage-flavored halfing cavaliers still have to possess/display a banner that is at least as big as they are in order to benefit from it? Or one just as big to them as small sized is relative to a medium sized cavalier? (to be fair, Alain's flaccid, stringy pennant really seems to be just squeaking by on the 'at least small sized' clause)
Assuming a sashimono or shield-crest is not an option and a banner must be some sort of freely waving flag-like cloth item, does it come for free as part of the class ability? It would seem to me that it should, since no cost is listed nor is there one listed anywhere I've seen for a vanity type heraldry-braggy banner. if it comes for free, what are the restrictions on replacing it should it be lost/soiled? If it's not free and no cost is listed, what cost should be paid?
EDIT: Wouldn'tchaknow you think of another one after hitting 'submit post'?
Does 'freely visible' mean that the banner must be displayed above the head of the cavalier? if so, does this mean that he has an extra 5' of ceiling intolerance while benefitting from a banner?
Cavalier's are not my strong point as I've never played one, but I always assumed the Cavalier's banner was a strip of fabric that hung from the end of the lance like a flag and displayed a coat of arms or other symbol of heraldry. I've seen this banner quite often in art depicting the 'knight in shining armor' that is what I believe the Cavalier class was based on.
As such, it would be up in the air while the lance is in it's holster, like a flag and easily visible. During mounted combat, it would flutter back behind the head of the lance still easily visible to anyone in the fight (since Pathfinder doesn't use facing). Not sure what the problem would be.
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Not sure what the problem would be.
Mainly, whether something besides a lance's pennant can be the banner. And how they'd work while not riding since virtually all of the time cavaliers will be dismounted in PFS scenarios. And what the costs involved in acquiring/maintaining the banner, if any.
Not really sure what I'm looking for, I guess kind of trying to feel out a consensus as to what people think (or who knows, mebbe Mark or Mike's view). Personally, I'd like to say my shield is my banner, but I don't wanna have to have issues with dealing with GMs who say it can't be. If I see that noone else seems to think that way, I know not to bother with that approach.
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Here's my opinion.
- A banner is certainly a pennant, flag, or the like. That's specifically different from heraldry on a shield. You can have your family crest or whatever on your shield if you like, but that's just a shield with a picture on it, not a banner.
- The ability makes no mention of the cavalier needing to use a hand to carry the banner, so having your banner on your horse, on your lance, or as a back banner looks like totally fair game. Indeed, most cavaliers I've seen use the back banner interpretation.
- The banner is a class ability, so you don't need to buy it. It's safe to assume you have a banner you can get out and wave about.
- Freely visible isn't a rules-defined term. I figure so long as you are displaying the banner, you're good. No keeping it in your backpack. It doesn't say that it projects out of your square either, so it doesn't.
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Thanks everyone for the thoughts so far.
I do wanna mention that I am very deliberately choosing the PFS forum.. while alot of what I'm asking are rules questions, they're really going down into minutae that a GM can just fiat as he sees fit, that's why the Core rulebook didn't go into that level of detail.
It's how PFS has multiple GMs instead of a home campaign having one common set of house rules/interpretation of written word. One GM may force me to track a banner 'of at least small size' as being 5 pounds towards my encumbrance limit, but another one may not. Looking to see what the common picture is so I know what to expect.
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Well I agree it is kinda frustrating that there isn't something more definitive in the Banner description as to what a Banner is. However, it says that a Banner can be displayed by the Cavalier or the Cavalier's Mount.
Additionally, if you look in the magic item section of the APG, you will find three different Knight's Pennon and a Lord's Banner that indicate they are basically flags that you fly from a lance, spear, polearm, or staff and don't work if not mounted correctly. The Knight's Pennon is a narrow strip of cloth and weights 1 lb. The Lord's Banner is 2' x 4' flag that weights 3 lbs.
Take what you will from that, but as a GM I would most likely rule that even if displayed on your horse, you'd have to have some sort of "staff" like object that stuck up from the horse's saddle that displayed the banner. Additionally, I'd probably rule it to be somewhere between 1 and 3 lbs based on the above magic item descriptions.
I merged the two threads on this topic.
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Thanks Ross :)
The more I think about this, the more OCD I get on it. Mebbe this does afterall deserve to be in the general rules forum..
The 'at least small size' clause is a real poser. If a banner is free in terms of wealth, free hands, and encumbrance, why specify that it has to be 'at least small size'?
Maybe I'm misanthropic but I honestly believe that all rules in the form of restrictions exist solely deal with the lowest common demoninators amongst us. (Coffee is hot! Don't spill in your lap!) If that's true, the 'at least small size' is only specified to prevent someone from flying a lapel-pin or some balsa-wood parade flag as the cavalier's banner. If the banner is free in every way that matters, what's the purpose of preventing someone from flying a banner that's too small to be considered proper?
And yet despite this specific rule, nowhere does it say anything about the banner having any sort of cost at all. It's just bizzare..
Flag: A flag is a colorful banner that bears the heraldry or symbol of a nation or organization. A character with the Flagbearer feat who bears a flag can grant additional combat bonuses to nearby allies. Carrying a flag in combat requires a free hand.
Flag 10 gp 3 lbs.
and
Flagbearer (Combat)
When brandishing a flag adorned with the standard of an organization you owe allegiance to, you inspire nearby members of the same allegiance.
Prerequisites: Cha 15.
Benefit: As long as you hold your clan, house, or party’s flag, members of that allegiance within 30 feet who can see the flag (including yourself ) gain a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws against fear and charm effects. You must hold the flag in one hand in order to grant this bonus.
If the standard is taken by the enemy or destroyed, this bonus becomes a penalty, affecting all creatures that the bonus previously affected for 1 hour (or until you reclaim the lost flag).
I know it's not exactly the same thing, but to me, this gives me an idea of the RAI. The standard should be 10gp, weigh 3 pounds, and must be clearly visible. Now I don't think that cavaliers's banners need to be held in one hand, as that requirement is only specifically spelled out in the Flagbearer feat above, but definately on a pole, lance, back banner what have you.