Synthesist with no hands?

[Gwyrdallan]

After reading the 17 page long synthe3sist thread, I have a couple of questions. Now these questions are not from the standpoint of optimization, or even being good at X, meerly the possibility of playing a synthesis who has a quardraped form.

As I read it synthesists are not allowed to cast spells since they cannot use hands for the somatic componants. Now the only way to heal your Eidolon is by casting a spell. So is there a way to regain those temp HP EVER? Surely that cannot be the intent, if the devs had meant to only allow bipedal synthesists than that would have been stated somewhere in the archetype. I realize that not all archetypes are equal to the original, but is there a way to even make this possible?

[Cheapy]

Play a character where you are the eidolon, and you have a pet human?

[Derwalt]

Gwyrdallan wrote:

As I read it synthesists are not allowed to cast spells since they cannot use hands for the somatic componants. [...] Surely that cannot be the intent, if the devs had meant to only allow bipedal synthesists than that would have been stated somewhere in the archetype. I realize that not all archetypes are equal to the original, but is there a way to even make this possible?

You can choose the evolution: limbs, and give the Eidolon a pair of arms. Then you can use those to cast spells (and/or wield weapons). Problem solved.

[Gwyrdallan]

Derwalt wrote:

You can choose the evolution: limbs, and give the Eidolon a pair of arms. Then you can use those to cast spells (and/or wield weapons). Problem solved.

I am well aware of that, as well as how much better that would be than going without limbs, but I want to know if it is even possible to play one without. Not all character concepts involve being a multi-limbed monstrosity, sometimes you just want to be a huge wolf. (and I know druid would work better, but I really want to try and find a way to do it with synthesist).

[LazarX]

You know there's this concept where you adventure with other people and form.... a party. Now on occasion these parties will include characters with healing capabilities. Making friends with one can go a long way.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

It seems like you're asking "how do I run without legs?" The answer is to fly.

So "how do I cast without hands" Still spell.

[Thalin]

If it's PFS, not unless you Still Spell everything.

If not, you can ask your GM if he can let you take natural spell as a summoner for flavor.

[Gwyrdallan]

LazarX wrote:

You know there's this concept where you adventure with other people and form.... a party. Now on occasion these parties will include characters with healing capabilities. Making friends with one can go a long way.

Actually because the Eidolon is fused and provides temporary HP normal healing won't work. The Eidolon specific healing spells still work, but not most healing, and I don't count on another summoner in the party.

[LazarX]

Gwyrdallan wrote:

LazarX wrote:

You know there's this concept where you adventure with other people and form.... a party. Now on occasion these parties will include characters with healing capabilities. Making friends with one can go a long way.

Actually because the Eidolon is fused and provides temporary HP normal healing won't work. The Eidolon specific healing spells still work, but not most healing, and I don't count on another summoner in the party.

It's still the Eidolon's hit points, which provide temp hit points for YOU. So the cleric should still be able to target the eidolon and heal it as they would a standard one.

[Happler]

LazarX wrote:

Gwyrdallan wrote:

LazarX wrote:

You know there's this concept where you adventure with other people and form.... a party. Now on occasion these parties will include characters with healing capabilities. Making friends with one can go a long way.

Actually because the Eidolon is fused and provides temporary HP normal healing won't work. The Eidolon specific healing spells still work, but not most healing, and I don't count on another summoner in the party.

It's still the Eidolon's hit points, which provide temp hit points for YOU. So the cleric should still be able to target the eidolon and heal it as they would a standard one.

Unfortunately FAQ says no:

Linkage to FAQ

Quote:

Summoner: How does a synthesist (page 80) heal damage to his eidolon?

Because the eidolon gives the synthesist temporary hit points rather than having a separate pool of normal hit points, effects that cure hit points don't restore the eidolon's temporary hit points. This technically leaves you unable to heal the eidolon. To remedy this, effects that specifically restore hp to an eidolon (such as rejuvenate eidolon) restore temporary hit points to a synthesist's eidolon. This does mean those spells end up as a sort of must-have "spell tax" for synthesists, but the advantage of being a synthesist is your eidolon's hp are a buffer between you and damage, unlike a normal summoner who can be targeted separately from his eidolon.

Even the Fast Healing evolution, or other fast healing or regeneration effects, restore hit points rather than temporary hit points, so they heal the summoner, not the eidolon's temporary hit points.

—Sean K Reynolds, 08/02/11

To the OP, this line seems to say that the summoner can cast spells no matter what:

Quote:

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear.

Since your gear does not go to the outside of the Eidolon, but you can still use it, I assume that you just make the somatic movements while suspended in your eidolon. I will continue to believe this until it is FAQ's otherwise.

[Stubs McKenzie]

From my reading of the synthesist I assumed you could always use whatever gear you have on your person prior to melding with the eidolon, including items in scroll cases and backpacks, etc and are still able to cast spells. If your eidolon doesn't have hands that can manipulate objects you cannot make attacks with manufactured weapons, or pick up new objects, or open doors, manipulate stoppers on bottles, etc that are not already held or worn prior to melding.

To clarify, you can't ever make attacks with manufactured weapons if the fused eidolon doesn't have hands

[Rocky Williams 530]

The only way for a synthesist's eidolon to be healed is the eidolon healing spells, cast either by a summoner, or through a wand, scroll, potion, etc... So, if someone insisted on playing a creature with no arms, they could have a party member have a wand to heal the eidolon. I'd just say accept the fact that a synthesist really needs arms to be effective.

[Mergy]

If you really don't want arms, purchase a wand of eidolon healing and get the resident UMD user to use it.

Or just be a biped. Or just buy arms. Or just don't play a synthesist.

SO MANY OPTIONS! :D

[jjaamm]

@Happler- from same link

Remember also that the summoner is wearing the eidolon like a biological, all-encompassing "suit," and the eidolon's shape limits what the summoner can do. If the eidolon doesn't have arms, the summoner can't use his own arms to manipulate objects, make attacks, cast somatic spells, or anything else requiring arms--while fused, the summoner's limbs are trapped within the armless eidolon-suit, and he isn't able to use them to manipulate things. The summoner isn't able to extend his own body parts outside of the eidolon-suit; if he wants to be able to manipulate things with arms, the eidolon needs arms (though tentacles are sufficient for simple tasks).

[Happler]

jjaamm wrote:

@Happler- from same link

Remember also that the summoner is wearing the eidolon like a biological, all-encompassing "suit," and the eidolon's shape limits what the summoner can do. If the eidolon doesn't have arms, the summoner can't use his own arms to manipulate objects, make attacks, cast somatic spells, or anything else requiring arms--while fused, the summoner's limbs are trapped within the armless eidolon-suit, and he isn't able to use them to manipulate things. The summoner isn't able to extend his own body parts outside of the eidolon-suit; if he wants to be able to manipulate things with arms, the eidolon needs arms (though tentacles are sufficient for simple tasks).

Missed that in all the FAQ's for that class. Danka!

[Lincoln Hills]

Dang. From the title of the thread, I thought it was the summoner who had no hands, not the eidolon. I was all set to suggest the logical next step - a barbarian with no torso.

[Iry]

What about a quadruped with four legs? The summoner's arms would be encased within the forelegs. Would they be allowed to use somatic components? There are plenty of creature with perfectly dexterous paws.

[Artanthos]

Iry wrote:

What about a quadruped with four legs? The summoner's arms would be encased within the forelegs. Would they be allowed to use somatic components? There are plenty of creature with perfectly dexterous paws.

No.

Not until somebody convinces Paizo to add prehensile as an available evolution.

[cnetarian]

Iry wrote:

What about a quadruped with four legs? The summoner's arms would be encased within the forelegs. Would they be allowed to use somatic components? There are plenty of creature with perfectly dexterous paws.

Iry wrote:

What about a quadruped with four legs? The summoner's arms would be encased within the forelegs. Would they be allowed to use somatic components? There are plenty of creature with perfectly dexterous paws.

While the summoners arms could be encased within the forelegs this is not necessarily so (the summoners legs could be in the forelegs and the hind-legs could contain none of the summoners body.

A somatic component can only be preformed by a hand, and not a foot no matter dexterous one might be with that foot

PRD wrote:

Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

The limbs evolution specifies that legs come with feet while arms come with hands. The distinction between a quadruped and a tetrapod is the number of "feet" not the number of limbs it walks on, several of the monkeys and apes "knucklewalk" on 4 limbs however the forelimbs end not in feet, but hands. A preying mantis contriwise has four feet among it's six limbs, so it is a quadruped unlike most insects which are hexapeds.

[Iry]

The FAQ says that the summoner needs arms to cast spells with somatic components. The Errata says that the summoner needs limbs to cast spells with somatic components.

The quote from the FAQ is 08/02/11, while the Errata is 03/30/12. Which one takes priority and/or is more official?

[AxiomOfAnarchy]

Gwyrdallan wrote:

Now the only way to heal your Eidolon is by casting a spell. So is there a way to regain those temp HP EVER?

Lose all your temporary HP. The eidolon will go back to whatever plane it's from, and then you can resummon it. It'll come back with half its maximum HP. You'll have to settle for half or less of your maximum temporary HP so long as you don't have arms in fused form and don't have some other way to have one of the Rejuvenate Eidolon spells cast on your fused form. If you really want to get back to your maximum temporary HP but don't want arms in fused form, and you don't have someone else in your party who can cast one of the Rejuvenate Eidolon spells on you, Eldritch Heritage with the Arcane bloodline could get you a familiar, and some familiars can use wands. Leadership with a high-UMD cohort is another option. Still Spell, in either rod or feat form, is yet another option for you.

[Skylancer4]

Iry wrote:

The FAQ says that the summoner needs arms to cast spells with somatic components. The Errata says that the summoner needs limbs to cast spells with somatic components.

The quote from the FAQ is 08/02/11, while the Errata is 03/30/12. Which one takes priority and/or is more official?

Both, neither contradicts the other... You need limbs to cast a spell, those limbs need to be arms.