For the scorpion you are correct. The flavor text and the mechanics are not cooperating.
The lion on the other hand does get to rake because the rake rules are an exception to the normal rules.
Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
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It does match up. From the grapple section in the PRD:
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
The stinger is a natural attack. It does not specify that you have to use the attack that started the grapple to damage. It also gets the pincher damage if it maintains the hold:
from the grab section:
If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.
So the flow goes like this:
round 1:
charge and hit with pincher doing 1d6+4 and initiates a grab. succeeds at the grab (now grapling the target)
Round 2:
maintain the grab doing 1d6+4 pincher (per the grab special rules and choose to do damage with a natural attack (stinger 1d6+4 + poison).
Round 3:
... can either repeat round 2 or drop grapple and do something else.
It does match up. From the grapple section in the PRD:
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.The stinger is a natural attack. It does not specify that you have to use the attack that started the grapple to damage. It also gets the pincher damage if it maintains the hold:
from the grab section:
If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.So the flow goes like this:
round 1:
charge and hit with pincher doing 1d6+4 and initiates a grab. succeeds at the grab (now grapling the target)Round 2:
maintain the grab doing 1d6+4 pincher (per the grab special rules and choose to do damage with a natural attack (stinger 1d6+4 + poison).Round 3:
... can either repeat round 2 or drop grapple and do something else.
Happler you don't get two sources of damage on a held grapple unless you have constrict.
Grab does nothing to promote a free extra attack.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
The grab rule show the the body part, which is the pincer does the damage because there is no constrict. It never allows for a free stinger attack.
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It does match up. From the grapple section in the PRD:
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.The stinger is a natural attack. It does not specify that you have to use the attack that started the grapple to damage. It also gets the pincher damage if it maintains the hold:
from the grab section:
If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.So the flow goes like this:
round 1:
charge and hit with pincher doing 1d6+4 and initiates a grab. succeeds at the grab (now grapling the target)Round 2:
maintain the grab doing 1d6+4 pincher (per the grab special rules and choose to do damage with a natural attack (stinger 1d6+4 + poison).Round 3:
... can either repeat round 2 or drop grapple and do something else.Happler you don't get two sources of damage on a held grapple unless you have constrict.
Grab does nothing to promote a free extra attack.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to...
Scorpions have constrict.
Giant Scorpion link from the PRD
Also, since it is succeeding at maintaining a grapple check, it has the following options from the Core book:
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
So, it could be doing the following damage on the second turn total:
Pincher damage from maintaining the grapple via grab = 1d6+4
Constrict = 1d6+4
Damage option in grapple = sting 1d6+4 plus poison.
remember, the pincher and constrict are automatic damage done for succeeding at a grapple check, but since it succeeded, it gets all the normal options for doing so, one of which is damage.
If it did not do constrict, it still does the 1d6+4 pincher since it has the constrict as an option. That is at least how I read the following:
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Since it says that it deals the constrict damage as well.
The constrict is not from another weapon such as a stinger though. It is just from being squeezed and the grab section still never allows that stinger attack.
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The constrict is not from another weapon such as a stinger though. It is just from being squeezed and the grab section still never allows that stinger attack.
But grab is just an addition to the grapple rules. When the scorpion succeeds at a grapple check to maintain, it gets the normal grapple owner options along with the constrict damage.
- It could choose to move the target 25 feet with the move option.
- It could choose to pin the target.
- It could choose to damage the target with a natural attack (in this case pincher or stinger)
Grab is in addition to the grapple rules instead of replacing the grapple rules. It allows the following:
- add +4 to CM checks to start and maintain grapples
- start a grapple as a free action if it hits with the natural attack that has the grab feature.
- do auto damage when it succeeds at a grapple check if it has constrict.
- option to take a -20 to grapple check to not be grappled itself.
It does not turn off any of the options that the monster normally has on a grapple. Just add to them.
(edited to clean up the lists)
The constrict is not from another weapon such as a stinger though. It is just from being squeezed and the grab section still never allows that stinger attack.But grab is just an addition to the grapple rules. When the scorpion succeeds at a grapple check to maintain, it gets the normal grapple owner options along with the constrict damage.
Personally, I don't think it's the intent that a creature with Grab does double natural weapon damage every round and that a creature with Constrict does triple natural weapon damage every round. I think it's supposed to be single natural weapon (for Grab) or double natural weapon (for Constrict). However, I admit that it's not written that way -- at least, not clearly.
So, the way I'm reading this the combat would go as follows:
1. G scorpion attacks and hits with pincer 1d6+4 and immediately initiates a grapple (via Grab). If successful, he also immediately deals constrict damage 1d6+4. Turn ends.
2. Second round. G scorpion continues the grapple as a standard action, if successful he deal 1d6+4+poison Stinger damage (via this quote: From the grapple section in the PRD:Quote:Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon.)
He then also gets another free 1d6+4 damage from Grab and another 1d6+4 from the constrict..
(A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
That seems to be what its saying... But seems overpowered. Maybe the Stinger would replace the grab pincer damage?
Edit: Essentially i agree with Hogarth
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1. G scorpion attacks and hits with pincer 1d6+4 and immediately initiates a grapple (via Grab). If successful, he also immediately deals constrict damage 1d6+4. Turn ends.
If this is the only action the scorpion makes, the turn doesn't have to end, but that's neither here nor there for this discussion.
He then also gets another free 1d6+4 damage from Grab and another 1d6+4 from the constrict..
Not quite. The scorpion has constrict, so a successful maintain doesn't deal damage automatically from grab. If the maintain is successful, he can choose to do damage with a natural attack, so 2nd round looks like this:
1d6+4 (constrict) plus 1d6+4 (stinger) plus poison
Relevant link (a nearly identical discussion took place in the comments, btw).
The page Tom B linked to is very nicely written and formatted, but I'm not convinced that it is correct on all points.
Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
From reading the rules it seems clear to me that constrict damage happens in addition to "the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold". The problem is that the entire statement is written backwards. It should probably read something like "Each successful grapple check the creature makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. If the creature constricts then it deals constriction damage too." I believe that these are in fact equivalent statements.
If a crab grapples you it gets claw damage and constrict damage (which is equal to claw damage in this case). The same goes for a scorpion (double claw damage). There's no mention of losing the damage from the original attack if you constrict or of any ability to substitute other damage for it. Whether or not you can add extra damage by using the damage grapple action is a good question, but I think that this would be unexpected and perhaps excessive. It would basically give everything with Grab the benefit of Constrict, and stuff with Constrict would benefit too.
I'm not a grapple hater trying to rain on the parade. I actually use grappling a lot both as a player and a DM. I just suspect that creatures with the Grab ability getting to do double damage while grappling was not the intent.
Remember 1st Edition, when scorpions were simple... LOL!!!
Ultradan