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AC: 12 (base form) +5 (dex) +8 (level) + 1 (size is +2 natural -1 size) +6 (evolutions) +2 (merged form shield bonus) +4 (Mage armor). 39 is plenty; I have no need to get deflection / competence AC bonuses which could make it higher (save money). I cast extended Mage armor out of a lesser wand of extend once per day. This is effectively always on as long as I am merged (and 4 hours while sleeping unmerged). Pretty easy, and evolves up at an extreme rate. Druids are also top-tier, but cannot keep up on nearly any of the effects of a summoner
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Ok, ready to rumble:Hit Points
Him >>> You. And hey, I even made your DM evil and do not give the full HD for lvl1 eidolon. ;)
To-hit
You = Him. If you both take Weapon Focus, still equal. If he takes Ability Increase (Strength), well.. busted.
Armor Class
Him > You. This even assume he didn't take Improved Natural Armor.
Damage
Him > You.
Skills
You > Him. You have higher intell I guess. But I'd like to point out the fact that he can take Skilled Evolution and just laugh at you with his...
hmmm.... ok lets correct this post just a LITTLE <--- see what i did there?
ok lets assume that we're talking stats as the rules for PFS.
str 14 5
dex 18 7(+1 dex for transmute)
con 13 3
int 14 5
wis 13 3
cha 7 -4
human level 2
feats precise, point blank, rapid
spells per day 4 specialty school, bonded object, int, 1 for level
bab 1
MW composit longbow +2
HIT +7 normal/+5 rapid vs average ac of 14 for fodder, and 17 for major baddies 40% isnt bad at all
AC 4 chain shirt.. YESH I SAID IT!! mithrial 10% ASF until 5th ( but i only cast 4 spells max per day so my odds are good enough.
+chain shirt, +4 dex,+4shield ... keep in mind im ranged so ac isnt as important, = 22ac vrs an average +5 to attack at 2nd which mean i only get hit on a 18-20
HP i have a wand of CLW so i dont need 100 hp at second level
10+4+2+2 18 hp average npc's hit for 6 damage at level 2 giving me 3 rounds to heal myself before i drop.
SKILLS
total of 10 ranked at 1 each. average modifier is 7, highest dc at level 2 is 15 for skills. so im pretty safe there at a 60% success
DAMAGE
2d6+2 at 2 attacks ... at a range which means npc's need to move to hit me, which is a substantial advantage. oh and im able to hit people you cant.
SPELLS PER DAY
... do i even have to say anything?
so wait when you take it out of the context a fake world with no governing rules for cr encounters your guy is a god, BUT when you put your character in a situation that's based in reality you quickly notice how unnecessary all of those broken abilities are.
a +15 to a skill check SOUNDS cool but is it really necessary? no
now go ahead and post your reply and remember that you get 4 points and that's it, no "i forgot that i had to stop posting my insane crazyness after i ran out of points" lol. remember you have the advantage because i went first so make it real good.
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OK, so let's put up his competition
Synth 2 half-elf
Str: 7 (18)
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Dex: 7 (14)
Con: 14 (13)
Chr: 19
Feat: Combat reflexes
AC: 18 (22 with Mage armor).
HP: 17 (15 + 13 temp merged)
Alt for +2 will
Attacks (all at +6): d6+4/d4+4/d4+4.
Evos: bite, improved natural armor. improved strength
Hardly a glory level, but still puts up better AC and to hit, especially since archery usually suffers -4 (cover). Also better spellcasting stats (though his only offensive spell is grease). Wand is rejuvenate Eidilon, otherwise saving up.
Wanna compare what these guys look like at 4/5? :).
A good druid can do most, if not all, of that. True, they don't get to merge with their companion, but action-economy and DPR favor being separate regardless; so not much of a weakness.A good druid can do some of that; not all. For examples of things they can't do, at least not easily though...
AC: Druids, from everything I've ever seen, have a heck of a time with maintaining a decent AC.
Fly/Pounce/Reach/Trip are all exclusive to one another for the most part. Do any forms have more than one of these abilities? An Eidolon can have all of them, at once.
HP: Hmm. Actually, druids definately dont get any advantage here. At all.
Buffs: Druids get decent buffs for themselves and their animal companions. What do they get for the party again? Not Haste for one. I can't really think of any...Hmm. Wait, so which of these things can a druid reproduce? One or two independant abilities?
All of it matters nil really. Because they can cast 9th level spells. And their entire list to boot. Sounds like a fair trade to me.
All of it matters nil really. Because they can cast 9th level spells. And their entire list to boot. Sounds like a fair trade to me.
Thats the real issue though isn't it? Summoner's can also cast 9th level spells. Not a huge variety of them (though Gate, Summon Monster IX, and Greater Planar Binding offer a ridiculous variety of options a Druid will be hard pressed to compete with), but they're among the most powerful spells out there.
All of it matters nil really. Because they can cast 9th level spells. And their entire list to boot. Sounds like a fair trade to me.Thats the real issue though isn't it? Summoner's can also cast 9th level spells. Not a huge variety of them (though Gate, Summon Monster IX, and Greater Planar Binding offer a ridiculous variety of options a Druid will be hard pressed to compete with), but they're among the most powerful spells out there.
Druids have some winners on that end of the list as well. Let's start with Shapechange, Summon Nature's ally 9, and certain domain spells.
If a druid is so inclined to leave off his animal companion it is possible, and even feasible for him to take a domain over his animal companion. Sacrilege I know but some of these domains are actually pretty damn worth it. Some even replace the animal companion with a familiar. Some of those domains provide nifty things like limited forms of Gate, or Greater Planar Ally. Druids got it covered. Heck I can even get pounce and standard action summoning. :)
The way I see things, the basic Summoner is best compared to a Druid, to make class features most equivalent.
The Eidelon is like the Druid Animal Companion, but gets the Wild Shape feature with infinite duration and fully customizable form, including many abilites not available to the Druid, while the Summoner only gets up to 6th lvl spells from a limited list to compensate (supposedly).
That said, I DO think Summoners (especially Synesthists) are overpowered, especially as a class with a fully customizable monstrous fighter sub character, a creature which could normally only be created as an NPC for game balance reasons but which is now under the direct control and buffing abilities of a spellcasting PC.
The main issue is the lack of limitations for the eidelon's build. Even imposing separate pools of evolution points for different types of abilites such as defense, offense, and special utility evolutions would be a big step towards equalizing the base Summoner class with the other classes. And IMO the Synesthist should still be required to use his own stats, but with the ability to take evolutions to supplement them, just as a start, and some evolutions should be redefined so that they are a bit less powerful or maybe just more expensive.
Hell, I have a 5th lvl Synesthist in my campaign I'd just love to get rid of because he does more dmg than all the other characters combined when you consider the fact that Pounce and Sprint(?) allow him to reach the battle 3-4 rounds before the rest of the party. And before you ask how can he even find the mooks that far out, note that with two feats, a racial bonus, one evolution, and 5 ranks, his Perception roll is still a 25 on a natural 1. And that's in an already overpowered campaign with a Psion Kinetisist. The player and I have gone over his build in detail to see if there is anything illegal, but we can't. The only reason I won't just kill off the character is because he actually has a good backstory, not that he isn't often the primary target (as a large semi-translucent rune-scribed werewolfish beast, though not actually a large creature yet).
All of it matters nil really. Because they can cast 9th level spells. And their entire list to boot. Sounds like a fair trade to me.
So druids finally get something cooler then Summoner's at level 17 so it's all good?
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Well, a few things:
*Bow doesn't count (arcane focus)
*If this is a PFS character, he is fully capable of buying wands with prestige (all level 1 wands). And by 2 would have about 1400 GP, plenty for a mithril shirt.
*I doubt the wand is for him; more than likely he hands it off. It's customary
Now for the other side:
*Rarely is range an advantage without improved precise. Most shots are at -4, so you're looking at +1/+1 or +3 (one of my PFS characters is an archer cleric, soft cover sucks :().
*The damage output is still lower
*AC is nowhere close unless you have buffed shield for a round. And will stay fairly static as we level, where mine will scale noticeably (39 by 10, vs maybe 25/26).
*The character falls further behind as levels go up. The summoner scales at an incredible speed, beginning @ 4. The split-class will be behind (if you Eld knight at 7 we'll both be on 3rd level spells, but my list will include many powerful 4th level spells).
*14 stat limits you to buffing, and you will be limited on extra spells later. I have a 19, 20 @ 4, and will have loads of extra spells.
They both have the same potential skill ranks; the summoner is using favored class for something far better. More, the summoner has all good stats, so any "splash" skills will be higher. But the summoner is more likely to focus (mages traditionally like to roll on all knowledge skills so spread more, but this is hardly an advantage; really I think knowledge skills are largely flavor and a skill tax on Mage-types).
So druids finally get something cooler then Summoner's at level 17 so it's all good?All of it matters nil really. Because they can cast 9th level spells. And their entire list to boot. Sounds like a fair trade to me.
Well I would talk about 7th, and 8th level spells but I figure you already have the right idea when I talk about it.
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Well, Summoners got a good number of 7th and 8th. Really it's inexplicable why they basically get high level spells at low levels; bards got an extremely small list of these, most others got none. Summoners are almost full casters, they just had spell levels adjusted down.
Talking about high levels is difficult, because most caster-classes are capable of being one-hit wonders there. The druid's animal companion has become a liability by 15 and they wish they took a domain (though the en vogue workaround here is fur/feather domain + boon companion; this weakens Druids 1-4 though). But at that level the summoner still has relevant AC (60s-70s; most monsters still can't hit), and 8-9 devastating attacks; on top of a great spell list, higher casting stat, and strength nicely into the 40-50 range. So he continues to be less vulnerable, more powerful in combat, and even more capable of doing anything. But he does this around 8, where he can black tentacles (with lesser meta rods since it's a 3rd level spell), access better buffs, and outdamages the Druid/companion team in "full-on combat". And he also has the ultimate buff in Evolution surge, basically a joker-in-the-hole that can give you almost any capacity..... as a 3rd level spell!
And for the record I consider the Druid the 2nd or 3rd most powerful class; but nobody compares to the top-end, even remotely.
Well I would talk about 7th, and 8th level spells but I figure you already have the right idea when I talk about it.So druids finally get something cooler then Summoner's at level 17 so it's all good?All of it matters nil really. Because they can cast 9th level spells. And their entire list to boot. Sounds like a fair trade to me.
8th level spells like Mass Charm Monster, Dominate Monster, Create Demiplane, Dimensional Lock and Maze?
8th level spells like Mass Charm Monster, Dominate Monster, Create Demiplane, Dimensional Lock and Maze?Well I would talk about 7th, and 8th level spells but I figure you already have the right idea when I talk about it.So druids finally get something cooler then Summoner's at level 17 so it's all good?All of it matters nil really. Because they can cast 9th level spells. And their entire list to boot. Sounds like a fair trade to me.
If you like having your save based spells have a lower save by dint of being 6th level spells than sure. Also Dominate Monster is 9th level.
The point being made here is that Druids are full casters with full access to their entire list and don't have a spell tax inflicted on them to keep their suit in shape. Metamagic becomes easier, item crafting gets much easier. Having full caster type spells isn't the same as being a full caster especially a full divine caster.
I have a sythnesist in my campaign. He's been extremely patient as I learn more about his archetype, which is my mistake for allowing any PF material for my first DMing job in 8 years. Regardless, his character is plenty powerful and packs a pretty good punch. The point about DR or energy resistance definitely rings true, to a certain extent. From a damage standpoint, when he hits with all of his attacks, he keeps up with their Ranger and Magus. When he doesn't, the Magus generally makes his damage fall under the secondary category.
He could definitely cheese out, but rarely does, and only when it fits the situation. He doesn't do it simply because he can.
I find threads like this interesting...numbers all over the place...not just in this thread, but in multiple threads about different classes. It makes me wonder just how many people are actually playing the classes they discuss and how many people are spending time on the forum tossing up averages and how something looks on paper.
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Well, the combat-oriented Druid isn't going to be much of a caster; starting 14 stat, and bumps go to strength. The high-level synth will have a 19-20 start and all to Cha, so will end with 24 (on top of items, wishes, etc if you want to play the "look what a level 20 can do game). The whole point is the Druid isn't casting much on opponents; the DC will be off. If they focus as casters/support they can almost do some of the tricks if the summoner, but the sunmoner's are largely better, and they fall a metamagic rod category cheaper (8th level and 9th level spells cast with a regular meta-rod).
But again that is the high level game, where summoners rule the world alongside most magic types. Let's focus on more played levels; at 4 and beyond summoners are the greatest combatants; they have better buffs (haste, evolution surge, and getting the equivalent of the druid's best buff, animal growth, permanently for 4 evo points and stackable with Enlarge Person). Then to add more insult, they get a battlefield control spell Druids would dream of (black tentacles) as a 3rd level spell.
Superior fighters, superior defense, superior spellcasters. Synths 4 life (well, technically I believe Summoners need serious nerf, but doubt it will happen.
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And my primary is a summoner; so I'm not theory-talking. As a base summoner some aspects are more powerful than the Synth; some less, but I've seen few modules I can't basically solo (with the minor exception that I'd be coup de graced if I failed a badly timed save). I've had people comment that they guess they don't need to worry about combat; I often open with Summon Eidilon and a Summon Monster spell (and have them go room-to-room if we are in a dungeon area). It is as disgusting as advertised, especially if you try to make it such.
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Well, the combat-oriented Druid isn't going to be much of a caster; starting 14 stat, and bumps go to strength. The high-level synth will have a 19-20 start and all to Cha, so will end with 24 (on top of items, wishes, etc if you want to play the "look what a level 20 can do game). The whole point is the Druid isn't casting much on opponents; the DC will be off. If they focus as casters/support they can almost do some of the tricks if the summoner, but the sunmoner's are largely better, and they fall a metamagic rod category cheaper (8th level and 9th level spells cast with a regular meta-rod).
But again that is the high level game, where summoners rule the world alongside most magic types. Let's focus on more played levels; at 4 and beyond summoners are the greatest combatants; they have better buffs (haste, evolution surge, and getting the equivalent of the druid's best buff, animal growth, permanently for 4 evo points and stackable with Enlarge Person). Then to add more insult, they get a battlefield control spell Druids would dream of (black tentacles) as a 3rd level spell.
Superior fighters, superior defense, superior spellcasters. Synths 4 life (well, technically I believe Summoners need serious nerf, but doubt it will happen.
Except Synthesists can't use it. They count as outsiders while suited up.
You have haste. But so does damn near everyone. And in some cases (you're friendly neighborhood wizard) are going to cast it anyway. And if you're casting it you're not really doing the job you need to be doing. As far as battlefield control you do have that nice black tentacles. But the druids been doing things like that since level 1. And this is soemthing a vanilla summoner can do better than anyway.
In terms of buffs you do have better ones. Evolution surge is great and I'd be wary of any summoner who didn't have it. But you get the same effect out of a druid making good use of his form spells.
As far as combatant? That I think is debatable but I don't have the time right now to concern myself with it. I think that's more of a question of viewpoint as well. Some would argue that by dint of being in melee to begin with you're automatically a 2nd tier combatant.
As far as best combatant? That's a fight you don't want.
I think we're settled on summoners being ridiculous. Synthesists are a nerf. :P
If you like having your save based spells have a lower save by dint of being 6th level spells than sure. Also Dominate Monster is 9th level.
The point being made here is that Druids are full casters with full access to their entire list and don't have a spell tax inflicted on them to keep their suit in shape. Metamagic becomes easier, item crafting gets much easier. Having full caster type spells isn't the same as being a full caster especially a full divine caster.
The save DC for dominate monster and mass charm monster are going to be higher for a summoner then a druid (cause they never get those spells). Maze, Create Demiplane and Dimensional Lock don't allow a save (and druids dont get those spells). Summoner's get a better spell list then Druid's.
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Yes and no on the Synth nerf.
Synths are less powerful because of loss of action economy. Separate synth/summoner can buff and attack all in one round.
No in the sense it encased the otherwise more-squishy summoner in a suit of invincible armor. Summoners share slots, and most of your wealth usually goes to make the Eidilon better; so your AC isn't so great. You also leave the monster with weaker saves than the Synth.
Standard Eidilons also can't qualify for the very powerful Greater Improved Trip line; so cannot get CMBs on mega-bite as high.
So there are arguments both ways, but I think the weakness of a synth is Eidilon saves and summoner squishyness. Synth takes care of these, even if it costs action economy.