Question regarding Feral Combat Training

[Tectorman]

It says that you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike. The Monk’s Unarmed Strike takes a regular person’s unarmed damage die (d3 for Medium creatures, d2 for Small creatures) and bumps it up two steps (d6 for Med, d4 for Small) and further increases the damage over the course of 20 levels (2d10 for Med, 2d8 for Small). A creature’s claw attack is typically one step above their natural unarmed damage (according to the table at the back of the Bestiary).

Ergo, would Feral Combat Training take a Medium 20th-level Monk’s Claw damage up past 2d10 (I imagine to 4d8, since that’s what Large Monks get for their unarmed damage)? Furthermore, since Improved Natural Attack hasn’t been used yet, would that feat further increase this damage (presumably to 6d8)?

[kyrt-ryder]

A Monk's unarmed damage doesn't 'augment unarmed strike' in the manner of 'improvements' to the damage die but in the manner of a replacement damage die.

In that respect, I suspect the best you'll get is 2d10 medium claws (which would subsequently be 4d8 if you took Improved Natural Attack Claws I believe.)

[rainsinger]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

A Monk's unarmed damage doesn't 'augment unarmed strike' in the manner of 'improvements' to the damage die but in the manner of a replacement damage die.

In that respect, I suspect the best you'll get is 2d10 medium claws (which would subsequently be 4d8 if you took Improved Natural Attack Claws I believe.)

Here's what I'm more interested in figuring out... (stay with me on this)

Ok, let's say you have a half-orc. Let's say you go the route of getting him a bite attack. Easy enough.

Now, let's say he's a monk, and he ends up with this feat. Again, easy so far.

A) Can he take multi-attack and use the bite attack as a secondary attack after a flurry of blows?

B) How ridiculous is it to think of him flurry-biting someone to death?

Monk description is very specific under flurry of blows in stating that you can not use natural attacks in addition to flurry - but obviously this feat is attempting (although badly worded) to circumvent the monk rules against natural weapons... I just am not sure how far they intended to go with it.

[Bobson]

A) No, but he can make a flurry with only his bite attack. Or he can mix unarmed strikes and the flurry. But he can't bite in addition to his flurry.

[rainsinger]

Bobson wrote:

A) No, but he can make a flurry with only his bite attack. Or he can mix unarmed strikes and the flurry. But he can't bite in addition to his flurry.

Ok, so then here's the question that is the most important of all...

If he can't use the attack in addition to flurry, and the bite attack doesn't upgrade the attack die of his attacks... then is the ONLY point of this feat to allow the character to then mix the OTHER natural weapon feats with his unarmed attacks? (Like Eldritch Claws and so on)

Seems like a pretty much useless feat if it doesn't allow you to actually -use- the natural attack to some kind of advantage. I'd rather just grab a style feat. :P

[Cheapy]

It lets you use natural weapons with style feats.

[rainsinger]

Cheapy wrote:

It lets you use natural weapons with style feats.

Right... but you still couldn't actually DO anything with the natural weapon when using it -with- flurry, other than using that weapon type (piercing for a bite) in place of the standard bludgeoning... which you could do with a couple of styles anyway.

I guess I'm just not seeing the real point of the feat... and it seems like something specific enough that they had to have put it in with a pretty notable intent.

[Cheapy]

Do a search for AMY ALCHY to see what you can do with it.

[blackbloodtroll]

Weapon focus and specialization (unarmed) will now effect the natural attack in question. Spells like stone fist, will now effect it too.

[blackbloodtroll]

Cheapy wrote:

Do a search for AMY ALCHY to see what you can do with it.

No results.

[rainsinger]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Weapon focus and specialization (unarmed) will now effect the natural attack in question. Spells like stone fist, will now effect it too.

Ok, I understand that... but keep in mind, we're SPECIFICALLY talking about a monk here. While yes, it is possible to get focus and specialization in unarmed as a monk, the fact is that those bonuses would still apply to his flurry of blows attacks as normal, and the natural attack would not change any of those attacks whatsoever according to the responses above.

So it doesn't seem to have any use FOR A MONK other than simply allowing you to attack potentially slightly useful "natural weapon" feats to your unarmed attacks... but it seems like a lot of steps to get very little output for a monk.

That said, I can completely understand how a non-monk using the natural weapons as secondary attacks (with like two-weapon fighting and so on) could make great use of this... it's just that the flurry of blows specifically kills the usefulness of this.

I still think that it's just badly worded altogether. They really need an errata on this.

[Cheapy]

The Dragon Style Vivisectionist Beastmorph Feral Mutagen Alchemist. An exercise in ridiculousness.

Feral Combat Training is the most important feat in the build.

[Dash Lestowe]

Cheapy wrote:

The Dragon Style Vivisectionist Beastmorph Feral Mutagen Alchemist. An exercise in ridiculousness.

Feral Combat Training is the most important feat in the build.

Thanks for the post, and your input.

I'll have to review it in detail later. Right now with a precursory glance, the one thing I see is that it looks like you are applying FCT to both your claws, and your bite. You indicate that at 7th level you are taking it again. What basis do you have to taking it again? Like other feats (that do), it does not state that you can.

Secondly, at that level, your damage is based on bonuses that can be replaced with equivalents for unarmed damage. Potion of Greater Magic Fang at a 20th level caster, and alchemical allocation isn't unique to FCT. GMF applies to one natural attack, so it'd have to be taken twice to apply to both bite and claws. In addition, it's an enhancement bonus, so wouldn't stack with an amulet.

The only two advantages that I see that FCT gives you, is not having to take a secondary attack minus to your bite (about +5 to hit). In addition, your iterative attacks from your base attack could give you a second unarmed strike, again with a minus to hit (-5). Replace the two FCT feats with two weapon fighting, or multi attack line of feats, and this would almost be a wash.

In total, FCT grants you +5 to hit, on two attacks. I wouldn't consider that the most important feat. The most important aspect of this build is the abilities Alchemist gives you. Pounce, Fly potion non-use, etc...

[Lord_Malkov]

The benefit is a bit cloudier with regard to a bite attack... but essentially the other posters are pretty much on target.

You could indeed flurry with only bite attacks. This was clarified in a faq... you can flurry with just one weapon. In this case you would also replace your normal bite damage with the monk unarmed strike damage (replace not add to)

So essentially the same as a normal flurry... so what is the point? Well nothing if you are just a straight up monk. You really need to combine this with other class features spell or feats for ot to take effect.

If you are a druid/monk you can flurry while wild shaped... and those two classes can synergize pretty well. It also lets you use style feats while wild shaped. And with aspect of the beast... you can get claws to then translate FCT into any form that has claws (a pouncing lion for example)

In addition... since you CAN flurry at higher level you can use a creatures like the allosaurus which has three attack type but choose to flurry during a pounce so that you only use claws for your feats abilities etc.

So at lvl 20 with monk robes, imp natural attack, you can pounce with 7 claws that each deal.... actually I don't know what the dmg would be. 2d10 becomes 3d10 I guess from imp natattack... then 2 size categories... probably it goes 2d10 > 3d10 > 4d10 > 6d10

So yeah... pretty effective.

[Dash Lestowe]

Lord_Malkov wrote:

So at lvl 20 with monk robes, imp natural attack, you can pounce with 7 claws that each deal.... actually I don't know what the dmg would be. 2d10 becomes 3d10 I guess from imp natattack... then 2 size categories... probably it goes 2d10 > 3d10 > 4d10 > 6d10

So yeah... pretty effective.

This is what the OP (me) was getting at. I believe this is how the feat should work. The natural attacks would increase from the monk levels.

The example above, does not illustrate that, nor does it imply that it should. The reason I spoke to it's points is because it's not an entirely accurate representation of the feat. It seems the poster would like show how powerful the feat is, in an attempt to detract from the idea that the monks levels should apply to the natural attacks.

While that build appears to be powerful, I don't believe it offers anything to this discussion.

[James Risner]

Dash Lestowe wrote:

The natural attacks would increase from the monk levels.

This thread got necro-ed from a year or more ago.

Here is another thread where the advancing of the Natural weapon dice from Monk Unarmed is discussed and has a fair number of FAQ clicks.

If you believe it can be advanced (and I believe it doesn't count as an augment) please go and click the FAQ. Because there are folks on both sides of this debate that have not been convinced by the other side's position. So the only way to settle it is to get it FAQ'd.

Link to thread

[Dash Lestowe]

James Risner wrote:

This thread got necro-ed from a year or more ago.

Oops, I see that too. My apologies. It seems I thought the link to the build was posted on the thread I started, please accept my sincere apologies. I didn't intend to necro a post.

[Lord_Malkov]

Dash Lestowe wrote:

Lord_Malkov wrote:

So at lvl 20 with monk robes, imp natural attack, you can pounce with 7 claws that each deal.... actually I don't know what the dmg would be. 2d10 becomes 3d10 I guess from imp natattack... then 2 size categories... probably it goes 2d10 > 3d10 > 4d10 > 6d10

So yeah... pretty effective.

This is what the OP (me) was getting at. I believe this is how the feat should work. The natural attacks would increase from the monk levels.

The example above, does not illustrate that, nor does it imply that it should. The reason I spoke to it's points is because it's not an entirely accurate representation of the feat. It seems the poster would like show how powerful the feat is, in an attempt to detract from the idea that the monks levels should apply to the natural attacks.

While that build appears to be powerful, I don't believe it offers anything to this discussion.

Well it all comes down to 2 questions

1) what does augment mean?
2) are the benefits of the monks unarmed strike class feature considered an "effect"

I'm not sidestepping anything really. I thought the question was "how is this useful for a straight monk who happens to have a natural attack"

There is no clarity in the RAW for a ruling on this either way. Personally I would say that the monk does get to use his unarmed strike damage in place of the natural attack's damage. Mainly because it would be hard to argue (for me) that the monks unarmed strike class feature doesn't augment his or her unarmed strikes.

The reason that flurry is mentioned specifically is that it doesn't change a monks unarmed strikes in any way but rather gives another method of using them.