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Hmmm....
Well, first feats. SM qualifies for Sacred Summons, the single most powerful summoning feat. While SNA qualifies for Moonlight Summons (an amazing benefit), this is a far cry from what amounts to a free quicken.
Second, SM is better out-of-the box on all levels. Not just spell-likes, Riding Dogs are overpowered @ 1, and only SM gets them (SNA is inexplicably errataed to basic dogs). And they actually get templates on their summons (celestial / fiendish).
Basically at no level would I rather have SNA relative to summon monster. 1-3 variable numbers of riding dogs, 4-5 lantern archons, and 6 to up you get a toolbox of powers that SNA just can't hang with. On top of letting diviners summon standard-action style.
... Riding Dogs are overpowered @ 1, and only SM gets them (SNA is inexplicably errataed to basic dogs)...
There is a thread here somewhere about this. SM is also supposed to be basic dog. The just haven't done the errata yet. The giant lizard is also wrong.
I can't remember what the thread was called at the moment.
However, even so, I agree that SM is almost always better than SNA. As the OP mentioned some of the SNA do seem to have a bit better natural attacks. So there might be a few situations where they do better. Like if you were sending them up against vanilla humanoid troops with no special attacks or defenses, they might do a bit more damage. But I would expect those situations to be unusual in most campaigns.
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D3 (+1 with superior summons, which any dedicated summoner would have) Lantern Archons. 2 touch attacks for +3 to hit, d6 damage each, ignoring any form of DR. Also makes opponent make a save (low DC) or be -2 to everything (one save for each archon) and can fly out of reach. We've taken out over-CR dragons by spamming those guys; nothing can really compare against any non-mooks.
Any rounds they have left after combat can be spent casting aid on each party member, so it serves as a mass Aid spell as well.
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Pros and cons of both?
I feel like SM will give you a greater variety of monsters that can be summoned. Spell-like abilities, DR, breaking through others' DR, etc.
On the other hand, I feel like many of the SNA choices have a higher damage output, and there's some interesting flavor in there too.
Thoughts everyone?
One slight advantage SNA has is that neutral creatures can't be kept out by protection from evil and the like. AFAIK celestial creatures gain the good subtype and are hedged out by the appropriate protection effect.
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Actually, I'd take issue with some of the above. Having recently given the SM spells a close read as well as the celestial/fiendish templates in the Bestiary that might be applied, it seems clear these creatures do NOT gain the good/evil subtype.
I know, this sounds counter-intuitive, but in the CRB there is a clear indication that creatures summoned with the '*' next to them always have an alignment that matches your own, regardless of their usual alignment. This gets a bit complex but basically means a fiendish lion summoned by an evil caster would be hedged out by protection from evil, but the same fiendish lion summoned by a neutral caster would not be hindered by that protection from evil spell.
The real nail in the gaining good/evil subtype idea, though, comes from the Bestiary in that creatures with the celestial/fiendish templates, despite gaining smite good/evil, gain a very different one from paladins, mainly because theirs does NOT automatically bypass DR of ANY kind, even DR/good if the creature is using smite evil! In such a situation, the summoned creature gains the bonus damage against the evil creature equal to its hit dice, but again, does not bypass the DR.
Believe me, I wish it were different given I play a conjurer more often than not, but after looking at both entries closely I see nothing that indicates these summons gain the good/evil subtype and thus the corresponding bonuses and negatives. Last reinforcement to this is that the good/evil subtype applies almost exclusively to outsiders, while the summoned animals are magical beasts.
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Actually, I'd take issue with some of the above. Having recently given the SM spells a close read as well as the celestial/fiendish templates in the Bestiary that might be applied, it seems clear these creatures do NOT gain the good/evil subtype.
I know, this sounds counter-intuitive, but in the CRB there is a clear indication that creatures summoned with the '*' next to them always have an alignment that matches your own, regardless of their usual alignment. This gets a bit complex but basically means a fiendish lion summoned by an evil caster would be hedged out by protection from evil, but the same fiendish lion summoned by a neutral caster would not be hindered by that protection from evil spell.
The real nail in the gaining good/evil subtype idea, though, comes from the Bestiary in that creatures with the celestial/fiendish templates, despite gaining smite good/evil, gain a very different one from paladins, mainly because theirs does NOT automatically bypass DR of ANY kind, even DR/good if the creature is using smite evil! In such a situation, the summoned creature gains the bonus damage against the evil creature equal to its hit dice, but again, does not bypass the DR.
Believe me, I wish it were different given I play a conjurer more often than not, but after looking at both entries closely I see nothing that indicates these summons gain the good/evil subtype and thus the corresponding bonuses and negatives. Last reinforcement to this is that the good/evil subtype applies almost exclusively to outsiders, while the summoned animals are magical beasts.
Interesting, so a true neutral summoner has nothing to fear from any protection from evil style spells. The spells still hedge out summoned creatures of the indicated alignment, even without the subtype. So, a Lawful Good conjurer summons Lawful Good celestial lions, for example, which are then hedged out by protection from evil or protection from law; a Neutral conjurer summons Neutral (celestial or fiendish) lions, which are hedged out by nothing, as the summoned creatures always match the caster's alignment.
...a Neutral conjurer summons Neutral (celestial or fiendish) lions, which are hedged out by nothing, as the summoned creatures always match the caster's alignment.
This is why the group I play with always adds in "Protection from Neutral" to that list of spells.
Actually, I'd take issue with some of the above. Having recently given the SM spells a close read as well as the celestial/fiendish templates in the Bestiary that might be applied, it seems clear these creatures do NOT gain the good/evil subtype.
I know, this sounds counter-intuitive, but in the CRB there is a clear indication that creatures summoned with the '*' next to them always have an alignment that matches your own, regardless of their usual alignment. This gets a bit complex but basically means a fiendish lion summoned by an evil caster would be hedged out by protection from evil, but the same fiendish lion summoned by a neutral caster would not be hindered by that protection from evil spell.
The real nail in the gaining good/evil subtype idea, though, comes from the Bestiary in that creatures with the celestial/fiendish templates, despite gaining smite good/evil, gain a very different one from paladins, mainly because theirs does NOT automatically bypass DR of ANY kind, even DR/good if the creature is using smite evil! In such a situation, the summoned creature gains the bonus damage against the evil creature equal to its hit dice, but again, does not bypass the DR.
Believe me, I wish it were different given I play a conjurer more often than not, but after looking at both entries closely I see nothing that indicates these summons gain the good/evil subtype and thus the corresponding bonuses and negatives. Last reinforcement to this is that the good/evil subtype applies almost exclusively to outsiders, while the summoned animals are magical beasts.
Very good points, thank you. I think alot of people are using sacred summons to summon all those templated critters, which dont work.
As for the best summoning feat, mine is "Acadamae Graduate". course some days the dice hate me, but lesser restorations help.
Neutral conjurers are "the way to be". Sacred summons (the best summoning feat ever) introduced the first reason not to be neutral if looking to min-max summoning (as quickened lantern archon dropping is better than any other feats, even augment/superior).
Do you mean because you can then quicken a summon, and in the same round cast a summon as a standard action?
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Do you mean because you can then quicken a summon, and in the same round cast a summon as a standard action?Neutral conjurers are "the way to be". Sacred summons (the best summoning feat ever) introduced the first reason not to be neutral if looking to min-max summoning (as quickened lantern archon dropping is better than any other feats, even augment/superior).
interesting thought. Me, I dont know
I guess, the one I keep coming back to is the Tiger. Comparing 4th level spells, I'm having a hard time seeing any of the SM choices compete with that one.
There are a few nice SNA-only creatures (tigers, satyrs, cylopes), although you shouldn't understimate the Smite ability granted by the Celestial template. For instance, a Smiting pouncing lion (from SM IV) does 1d8+10/1d4+10/1d4+10/1d4+10/1d4+10 vs. a pouncing dire tiger that does 2d6+6/1d8+6/1d8+6/1d8+6/1d8+6 (albeit at a higher attack bonus).
There's a somewhat related discussion on what the best creature is for each spell list here:
Best Summon Monster by level
I think SM is probably slightly better overall due to the smite. The various giants and the purple worm that high level SNA users get rock, but +14 damage per attack for your dire tigers is pretty tough to ignore.
PfE etc can definitely put a damper on an aligned summoner's fun, but there are a few mitigating factors:
A) PfE only stops the summoned monster from using natural weapons against the warded creature. Attacks with manufactured weapons work just fine.
B) Spell Resistance can allow the summoned creature to overcome PfE and touch the warded creature. This was more useful in 3.5 where the SR for a fiendish creatures was HD+5. In Pathfinder it is CR+5, but a celestial dire tiger still gets to check against PfE with a +14 bonus.
C) A clever summoner will probably know Dispel Magic. Consider it a 3rd level spell which can cause about 150 damage (which is what the celestial dire tiger will probably do on a pounce)
You can also just summon something Neutral like an elemental of course.